JWFan's new bootleg discussion policy

[MrScratch 296]

Common sense would tell me to take that Goonies thread, retitle it, allow the discussion to continue and ask the the bootleg talk be kept in check. Instead, some unnecessary and idiotic rule was implented. And the funny thing is, what does JWFan have to gain or lose by the rule: nothing. I mean, really, outside of us who in the world cares about what goes on here in these messageboards?

[King Mark 3,975]

Common sense would tell me to take that Goonies thread, retitle it, allow the discussion to continue and ask the the bootleg talk be kept in check. Instead, some unnecessary and idiotic rule was implented. And the funny thing is, what does JWFan have to gain or lose by the rule: nothing. I mean, really, outside of us who in the world cares about what goes on here in these messageboards?

Exactly ,these are 20 year old film scores that studios would probably toss out if they lack storage space . Hardly anything to start calling this site somekind of "piracy cove" or whatever.

I think this new rule, in line with the stance on bootleg at label's sites, is that some of the "moderating team" is probably trying to get a job there or something.

[Richard P 5,302]

I doubt there's any ulterior motive here, although I for one don't accept 'protection of legit releases' as a reason. Stopping bootlegging won't change legit sales.

I will echo my support for Marc's general moderating - he does a great job. But I do feel that rule by rule, this place is becoming more confined against threats that I don't think exist.

[Henry B 51]

This rule could absolutely limit the discussion of music. Let me give a specific example: a few months ago a bootleg of the complete score to Schindler's List surfaced, and one of the most interesting finds was an alternative version of "I Could Have Done More." This cue was heard neither in the film nor on the CD album, and it hasn't been published as sheet music. Therefore, the only way I could have heard this cue is through an illegal bootleg. I should be banned just for admitting that this cue exists. You see the problem? Now, whenever we discuss "I Could Have Done More," I'll have to say "There's the version of the cue on the album, and there's the film version. It's possible that there's another version of the cue, but no evidence of one exists." It's an outright lie that prevents discussion of Williams' music and compositional process.

[Richard P 5,302]

We're mentioning boots in the thread designed to make people aware of the no-boots rule.

I like that

[Koray Savas 2,260]

It doesn't specifically say in Marc's announcement about leaked CD releases. Could I go talk about a certain score I'm listening to in the appropriate thread?

[Jacob 1]

We're mentioning boots in the thread designed to make people aware of the no-boots rule.

Ban me.

[John Crichton 4]

[Hlao-roo 390]

We're mentioning boots in the thread designed to make people aware of the no-boots rule.

Ban me.

Uncool, bro.

[King Mark 3,975]

This rule could absolutely limit the discussion of music. Let me give a specific example: a few months ago a bootleg of the complete score to Schindler's List surfaced, and one of the most interesting finds was an alternative version of "I Could Have Done More." This cue was heard neither in the film nor on the CD album, and it hasn't been published as sheet music. Therefore, the only way I could have heard this cue is through an illegal bootleg. I should be banned just for admitting that this cue exists. You see the problem? Now, whenever we discuss "I Could Have Done More," I'll have to say "There's the version of the cue on the album, and there's the film version. It's possible that there's another version of the cue, but no evidence of one exists." It's an outright lie that prevents discussion of Williams' music and compositional process.

That's exactly the kind of thing I'm thinking about . It also applies to some of the Indy music in regards to some cues that weren't on the Concord set but available elsewhere ,in terms of discussing sound quality...ect..

Also ,when a new Williams unreleased cue or music piece leaks out ,it's pretty much the only thing to get the board out of the doldrums when were not anticipating a new Williams score or c.d. release

[Henry B 51]

And how about this? We can't discuss Gabriel Yared's rejected score to Troy. At all.

[Jacob 1]

We're mentioning boots in the thread designed to make people aware of the no-boots rule.

Ban me.

Uncool, bro.

Sometimes my conscience gets to me...

but not this time.

[Marian Schedenig 11,694]

And how about this? We can't discuss Gabriel Yared's rejected score to Troy. At all.

Why not? Didn't he even have some tracks on his own website for a while?

I can't speak for the moderators, obviously, but I think if you stop making such a fuss about it and just not make a big deal of pointing out the details and whereabouts of boots, everything should be fine.

[John Crichton 4]

We're mentioning boots in the thread designed to make people aware of the no-boots rule.

Ban me.

Besides, I prefer these:

[Wojo 2,458]

What about a release that appears on Ebay? Ebay is a perfectly legit marketplace to purchase music and they don't allow the sale of bootlegs. So, if something is on ebay it can be assumed to be legit until ebay takes it down.

I wish that were the case. I've bought at least four items from eBay* that I knew were not legit, but I bid on them, won them, and now possess them anyways.

I said four for the sake of argument; three were from eBay and one was from Amazon Marketplace. Two were film scores, one was a DVD rip of laserdisc material, and the fourth would make Lego fans everywhere wet themselves.

[Hlao-roo 390]

I can't speak for the moderators, obviously, but I think if you stop making such a fuss about it and just not make a big deal of pointing out the details and whereabouts of boots, everything should be fine.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. A fuss is exactly what we should be making about it. Henry, KM, richuk, and all others opposed to the new rules, I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell, "I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!" I want you to get up right now, sit up, go to your windows, open them and stick your head out and yell, "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!" Things have got to change. But first, you've gotta get mad! You've got to say, "I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!" Then we'll figure out what to do about Ricard and Neil and Marc and their stupid rules. But first get up out of your chairs, open the window, stick your head out, and yell, and say it: "I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!"

[Richard P 5,302]

*falls off chair*

[Luke Skywalker 2,383]

I think it is a perfectly reasonable and understandable new set of rules

It's not a a stupid rule

And they should be taking that approach

I can breathe just fine, you're just having another one of you hissy fits.

Indeed

I have no problems with it

It's fine by me

I don't think anyone should be surprised. I certainly understand the motivation

New rule's fine with me

Just to get it out there, I have no problem with this rule

You gotta do what you gotta do Marc

"So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause."

Jokes aside:

I think this rule is In my opinion, too strict. A wattered down version would be welcome.

I think that any talk about how, where, when... to obtain the bootlegs could harm the site, now talking about them, musically wise, and making covers for them, it's beyond my comprenhension what harm could it bring (specially the covers).

I have read in this thread, that supporting the labels should be the approach this site should take. OK, the site should do that when the labels support it, and Andreas does not have to spend his own money on struggling to keep it alive.

And as mentioned a few posts up there, with this new rule all unreleased unused cues and unreleased alternates cannot be talked about, so, in a sense, they 'don't exist'. I dont see how common sense could evade the rule in this matter without resorting to irony, hypocrisy or a paradox (case in point: a person gets his hands on a newly surface bootleg with an unused and unreleased cue, and that person talks about it, without mentioning the source but of course everyone knows that the only way for it to surface is from unofficcial sources). And then we are losing a great deal of musical discussion and insight from great people here, because lets face it, a PM is a dialog between two people, not a round-table about a topic.

As said, i hope the site goes on forever, so if things must be done in order to that, go on with them.

On the other hand, I'm not going to say the rule is fine with me, because i would be lying.

[Marian Schedenig 11,694]

I wish that were the case. I've bought at least four items from eBay* that I knew were not legit, but I bid on them, won them, and now possess them anyways.

I said four for the sake of argument; three were from eBay and one was from Amazon Marketplace. Two were film scores, one was a DVD rip of laserdisc material, and the fourth would make Lego fans everywhere wet themselves.

Bootleg Lego?

[Maxxie 1]

Bootleg Lego?

What a mouthful.

[Jay 46,241]

There's been a lot of good questions raised on the last few pages of this thread, and it would be a nice if a moderator could come in here and answer them for us.

[Richard P 5,302]

Yes, Marc's been strangely quiet. Like he's put a hot potato in the circle and wants to see who's first to eat it...

[King Mark 3,975]

Well ,you know, he'll pop up and say something like "If you don't like it then leave..." Fine .Problem is this site does depend on it's regular members to make it interesting and if they leave then this place becomes what it becomes. I sense a lot of people don't like this new rule and it's not the kind of rule that you just "adapt" like the no religion/politics ban...it's a complete be outlook where possessing and obtaining unreleased material is frowned upon, which is THE primary quest of a lot of John Williams fans

If I wanted to just talk about upcoming c.d.'s and speculating on what might be released with a strict no bootleg talk policy ...there's FSM and Intrada boards for that (which both suck IMO)

[Richard P 5,302]

Well actually a lot of people don't seem to mind the new rule.

I'll say it again - I don't think it's a productive rule and I seriously question where it's come from. But as long as it's applied with some sense, I'm not going to make a fuss.

[King Mark 3,975]

oh ,they'll mind when the AotC sessions leak or something.

[Jill Sandwich 11,164]

oh ,they'll mind when the AotC sessions leak or something.

If an item is not in our records, it doesn't exist!

[King Mark 3,975]

Also ,with a rule like that ,people like LeHah will start posting here.

[Jill Sandwich 11,164]

Who?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

Like most things in live, one must take these rules and only uphold those that apply to themselves, and disregard the ones that do not apply to them.

It works brilliantly with the 10 commandments.

[King Mark 3,975]

Who?

raving lunatics who spend most of their time online finding bootlegs on ebay or various blogs just to denounce them to authorities and refering to people who share music as "animals"

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

We did away nicely with those type of people after the War!

[Taikomochi 1,460]

We did away nicely with those type of people after the War!

But we lost the war! This thread is proof!

[Koray Savas 2,260]

Who?

raving lunatics who spend most of their time online finding bootlegs on ebay or various blogs just to denounce them to authorities and refering to people who share music as "animals"

That names sounds familiar. Oh do I miss the days of Leyenda

[Ollie 1,375]

Well ,you know, he'll pop up and say something like "If you don't like it then leave..." Fine .Problem is this site does depend on it's regular members to make it interesting and if they leave then this place becomes what it becomes. I sense a lot of people don't like this new rule and it's not the kind of rule that you just "adapt" like the no religion/politics ban...it's a complete be outlook where possessing and obtaining unreleased material is frowned upon, which is THE primary quest of a lot of John Williams fans

If I wanted to just talk about upcoming c.d.'s and speculating on what might be released with a strict no bootleg talk policy ...there's FSM and Intrada boards for that (which both suck IMO)

Don't worry this message board is looked upon in a similar way by other places.

I do believe Marc has a life outside of this board and has been somewhat busy in the past year.

[Mr. Breathmask 624]

Fine then.

I've read all replies in this thread. Some of them are reasonable (on both sides of the argument), others are not.

This rule is not designed to stomp out bootlegs or deny their existence. We know the stuff is out there. That's fact. But it doesn't have to be paraded around either. I am merely asking you to refrain from openly mention it on the boards. So please don't go announcing you own a leaked pre-release or bootleg expanded score in any of the forums.

Rather, if you wish to inform fellow members, please use the PM system or other means of communication. Many of us have accounts at MSN, AIM, Facebook, MySpace etc. that we use as well.

Oh yes, and I do have a life, thank you.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

Many of us have accounts at MSN, AIM, Facebook, MySpace etc. that we use as well.

Yes, and many of us have adresses, at the homes we life in. Why not send each other a letter when something new leaks?

Since this is a soundtrack forum, it makes much more sense to me to discuss soundtrack releases (wether bootlegged or not) here, instead of on Facebook, Hyves, Myspace...whatever.

Hell, let's close this MB, we all have MSN anyway, right?

Marc, I understand the new rule, and your position. But try to maintain some perspective.

[King Mark 3,975]

Fine then.

I've read all replies in this thread. Some of them are reasonable (on both sides of the argument), others are not.

This rule is not designed to stomp out bootlegs or deny their existence. We know the stuff is out there. That's fact. But it doesn't have to be paraded around either. I am merely asking you to refrain from openly mention it on the boards. So please don't go announcing you own a leaked pre-release or bootleg expanded score in any of the forums.

Rather, if you wish to inform fellow members, please use the PM system or other means of communication. Many of us have accounts at MSN, AIM, Facebook, MySpace etc. that we use as well.

Oh yes, and I do have a life, thank you.

We still have to voice our concerns as to prevent draconian application of the rule (like at FSM) .I still want to *know* if something leaks out . Sure it's "out there" ,but that's not obvious to everyone. There's some stuff I could NEVER have found (Raiders Pre Concord leak )

BTW the only thing that really matters to me here is the still unreleased John Williams scores . The Goonies thing was a bit over the top and could have been more discreet and IMO only caused problems.

[Mr. Breathmask 624]

We still have to voice our concerns as to prevent draconian application of the rule.

Isn't it nice you can though?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

It seems to me that this new Rule is a response to the idiots who announced these BTTF and Goonies bootlegs with great fanfare.

If I were Moderator, i'd solve the problem by banning those responsible. Not putting this new rule on those who are smart enough to stay discrete.

Like Mark said, it just takes some common sense.

[King Mark 3,975]

We still have to voice our concerns as to prevent draconian application of the rule.

Isn't it nice you can though?

Well, yeah ,But I've been here 10 years and I know this isn't The Force Net where you can get banned for saying AotC is a bad film

[Red 75]

Rather, if you wish to inform fellow members, please use the PM system or other means of communication. Many of us have accounts at MSN, AIM, Facebook, MySpace etc. that we use as well.

Bootleg discussion has sort of been already been confined to these means, like it's always been illegal to post links to download them on the forum. This new rule is basically just an extension of that.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

Then many of us would have been banned already.

Rather, if you wish to inform fellow members, please use the PM system or other means of communication. Many of us have accounts at MSN, AIM, Facebook, MySpace etc. that we use as well.

Bootleg discussion has sort of been already been confined to these means, like it's always been illegal to post links to download them on the forum. This new rule is basically just an extension of that.

I think there is as vast difference between bootleg discussion and bootleg sharing though.

[Luke Skywalker 2,383]

It seems to me that this new Rule is a response to the idiots who announced these BTTF and Goonies bootlegs with great fanfare.

If I were Moderator, i'd solve the problem by banning those responsible. Not putting this new rule on those who are smart enough to stay discrete.

Like Mark said, it just takes some common sense.

Jason has already stated that he should have been warned in the BTTF thread, and so he would have not written the Goonies one.

On the contrary, I just saw many members taking the opportunity to tell the 'unlucky' ones that this was old news, and that they had owned this (BTTF) boots for quite some time...

[King Mark 3,975]

You said it the Goonies and BTTF threads were over the top in attracting attention ,AND aren't JW related

But ,I still want to know that if I want to hear The Burial Scene with no choir , I need to get a hold of the SL recording sessions

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

No, Jason should have used common sense, in both the BTTF and Goonies threads.

[Trent B 354]

People definitely need to use more discretion, especially for pre-releases.

I'll admit, I knew about LaLa Land's Godzilla at least a month or so before the release because I received the artwork for it and I never once came on the forum to announce it (except that one WDWGuy did) and even then I only told a couple of people in private.

If you find out about information regarding a pre-release, then hey that's great but keep it to yourself...as stated before sometimes a deal can fall through and the release has to be canned.

[Red 75]

Rather, if you wish to inform fellow members, please use the PM system or other means of communication. Many of us have accounts at MSN, AIM, Facebook, MySpace etc. that we use as well.

Bootleg discussion has sort of been already been confined to these means, like it's always been illegal to post links to download them on the forum. This new rule is basically just an extension of that.

I think there is as vast difference between bootleg discussion and bootleg sharing though.

Yeah. I think the outlawing of sharing rather than discussion would have been much more extreme and would have offended many more people.

And for the record, Attack of the Clones sucked.

[Jay 46,241]

No, Jason should have used common sense, in both the BTTF and Goonies threads.

And I've already apologized for not doing so. The whole board shouldn't be punished because I was a moron

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

Yes, but you were not slapped down hard and banned for atleast 2 weeks.

But that's not your fault.

[Jay 46,241]

Well to be fair, I was NOT the one who announced to the board that the BTTF2 and BTTF3 complete scores leaked. They were already being discussed in random threads, I merely created a single thread to discuss them in. It wasn't my intention to use the thread as an announcement, it was merely to create a consolidated place for those of us who cared to discuss the music.

I had no way of knowing that I did anything wrong at the time, as there was nothing in the rules about it, nor did any administrator say anything to me - either directly or in the thread - that creating such a thread was against the rules (or just a bad idea in general).

So, when I discovered the Goonies leak, I created another thread about it. I again didn't know I was doing anything wrong. And again, my intent was merely to discuss the music. Perhaps get together and figure out a complete cue list based on watching the film, figure out what cues where still missing, etc. The same thing we do with every new JW score.

I have no problem with a new rule that says we cannot create announcement threads about recording session leaks. Totally understandable. And I do apologize for the threads I created, and the awkward position it put our moderators in.

What I still feel is fuzzy about new rules about is what we are and are not allowed to say about bootlegged material in general. Marc, perhaps you could take a quick look through the Back To The Future thread and let us know what things that were said in it are and are not allowed under the new rules? When I just read through I never once say anyone talking about downloading it or where to get it. It was all just discussion of the music itself.

I feel like the problem with the FSM CDs getting announced ahead of time is bleeding into a completely unrelated recording session leak discussion issue. They should be considered separate issues.