Michael Bay Apologizes for Armageddon

[Brónach 1,330]

Personally, I think that there is more Christian allegory in "The Abyss", but that is a whole other story...

?

I don't see it.

[Wojo 2,458]

The Criterion DVD of Armageddon is an extended cut.

Yes, and it was my first DVD and I still own it.

I recall the scene where Bruce Willis talks to his father before going into space, perhaps in a church if I remember correctly. That is the only added scene I clearly remember.

[Jay 46,244]

There are 11 differences:

http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=114954

[Wojo 2,458]

Cool. It's been a while.

[Uni 307]

Well then you can't really relate to what I'm talking about if you haven't seen the whole movie. I meant it as staging the action. There's a great sense of ebb and flow in Bay's directing and how he goes from point A to B. one only needs to watch something like the car chase in The Rock. . . .

. . . to see what, exactly? I hate to say it, but that was easily the worst scene in that movie, a herald of all the Bay nonsense that was to come. It's an extended, completely irrelevant sequence of cars careening down the slopes of San Fran making a mess of everything (which is what Bay was doing when he fashioned this scene). What does it do for the story? Nothing. I didn't see any "ebb and flow," only hit and run. This is a perfect example of style without the smallest speck of substance. When a director has to shake the camera and flash zoom on interior shots of the drivers in order to remind the audience that this is really a fast, exciting chase scene, he's clearly grasping.

Think of the budget bucks he could've saved by having Mason cleverly slip away, contact his daughter, and meet up with her, only to have Goodspeed figure things out and lead the feds to where he is. Less money, more characterization, and it wouldn't do a shred of harm to the story.

A bit of slowing down, coupled with more character development, would have helped the film.

You just summed up the answer to every Michael Bay film—except (of course) The Rock, which is, without question, his best movie for the very reason that it does take more time for character development than any of his subsequent works.

Joey, for GOD'S sake, all the Adam & Eve stuff, the ark, proper american teenagers standing atop a mountain at the end with their newly adopted child (finally one without having actually to indulge in dirty sex - a garden eden without sin) - all this in aid of the thought that mankind has to be wiped out to be redeemed and should damn well be happy about it because the right ones will survive (as the film clearly takes sides who should live or die). DEEP IMPACT is, when i start thinking about it again, a repulsive movie.

Are you serious? This, my friend, is simply the result of a concentrated effort to find some religious allegorical connection in any film you don't like. Those kinds of connections register pretty quickly with me when they're there. I never caught a whiff of any of this in DI. Everything you describe as having some kind of nefarious intent is exactly how anyone in this situation would behave.

First off: what "Adam and Eve" stuff are you talking about? If the surface of the world is going to be completely wiped clean, does it not make sense to build some sort of underground shelter so that some remnant of humanity can survive? Do you really think the President would cancel any such plans because he's worried people might perceive it as an "ark" of some sort? And if you were standing with your family on that highway, facing imminent death by extreme surfing, and you had the opportunity of allowing your children the possibility of survival by placing them on the one means of mobility at hand, would you not do so? (And somehow I've missed seeing the story in the Bible about two teenagers who motorbike to the top of a mountain with a "newly adopted" child.) And who in the movie ever suggests that the disaster is justified in order to "redeem" humanity? No one treats it as a good thing, or even a necessary evil.

Don't mistake me: I'm not the least bit put off by your hatred of Christian allegory. I'm not big on it myself. We've all seen movies where directors try too hard, and it can mess up a perfectly good story. But it's just not there in Deep Impact. In this case, you seem to be the one trying too hard.

he has no need to apologize to me. I am not his audience.

Done and done! (Y) (Y) (Y)

- Uni

[Wojo 2,458]

Breathe in. Breathe out. Good.

[Uni 307]

*Whew!* Feels better!

- Uni

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,386]

The car chase in the Rock is completely redundant and Koray is an ass for worshipping it.

[Koray Savas 2,260]

Who said worship? It's quintessential action cinema. If your brain can't follow a quick succession of shots then go watch some Terrence Malick.

Cue the worship of Total Recall and other 80s action movies.

[Brónach 1,330]

It's perfectly followeable, I think that's not the thing.

[Quintus 6,496]

Die Hard is what we might regard as being "quintessential action cinema", not The Rock lololol

That movie is just really entertaining for being really shit, like AvP or some such nonsense. It's hardly fucking vintage now is it.

[Uni 307]

It's perfectly followeable, I think that's not the thing.

Bingo.

- Uni

[publicist 4,650]

Are you serious? This, my friend, is simply the result of a concentrated effort to find some religious allegorical connection in any film you don't like. Those kinds of connections register pretty quickly with me when they're there. I never caught a whiff of any of this in DI. Everything you describe as having some kind of nefarious intent is exactly how anyone in this situation would behave.

First off: what "Adam and Eve" stuff are you talking about? If the surface of the world is going to be completely wiped clean, does it not make sense to build some sort of underground shelter so that some remnant of humanity can survive? Do you really think the President would cancel any such plans because he's worried people might perceive it as an "ark" of some sort? And if you were standing with your family on that highway, facing imminent death by extreme surfing, and you had the opportunity of allowing your children the possibility of survival by placing them on the one means of mobility at hand, would you not do so? (And somehow I've missed seeing the story in the Bible about two teenagers who motorbike to the top of a mountain with a "newly adopted" child.) And who in the movie ever suggests that the disaster is justified in order to "redeem" humanity? No one treats it as a good thing, or even a necessary evil.

Don't mistake me: I'm not the least bit put off by your hatred of Christian allegory. I'm not big on it myself. We've all seen movies where directors try too hard, and it can mess up a perfectly good story. But it's just not there in Deep Impact. In this case, you seem to be the one trying too hard.

- Uni

It is of course there and very visible in this case (that you choose to defend the very images the film tries to rub in with absurd what-if scenarios instead of concentrating on the question why the film presents you images like this in the first place makes my whole post obnoxious but anyway...).

The two teenagers are the Adam and Eve pendants - hope has survived, in form of two american teenagers being happily married standing in a healthy field (finally freed of all those burdens of modern society, god forbid alternate lifestyles!), complete with their own immaculate conception child in the end (they inherited it - it of course came without something as dirty as a good shag). If you think about it, DEEP IMPACT seems to tell you (quite clearly by washing away modern Sodom New York City first) that every apocalypse is justified if only this image can come true again.

The fucking NASA mission is called MESSIAH and Robert Duvall's character is called FISH - it's a wonder that they didn't nail him to cross with asteroid nuggets when he dies! The ark...and so on and so on.

The Téa Leoni character is a trope of these kind of films but fits nicely in the allegory, too. Her story is simple: as child of a broken family and media reporter (!), she's bound to get it in a movie celebrating american values...and of course, she does (arm in arm with her no-good father, of course).

I am not enraged that DEEP IMPACT rolls out these idiotic concepts because countless other american movies do that, too, to different degrees. It's only that it does so without an ounce of humour or elegance that makes it even more stand out (of course, i steered clear of a lot of movies like this since).

PS: and ARMAGEDDON, feeble as it is, is at least somewhat entertaining in its dorkiness.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,110]

What the fuck does Christian allegory have to do with how good or bad of a job a director does anyway? Getting your panties in bunch over things that offend you has nothing to do with quality, skill, or craftsmanship.

It's like being against Star Wars because of its mythological allegory.

"George Lucas is a terrible director because I can't stand the Norse mythology allegory in Star Wars."

The first part isn't necessarily untrue, but the second part is the worst evidence for a point. EVER.

Talented for what? For producing the most hateful ignorant, stupid, woman-hating, jingoistic frat boy movies Hollywood ever had the gall to let out on a worldwide public?

Again, what the hell do any of those have to do with talent?

I suppose you would also so be so insane as to claim Wagner is a terrible composer of music because he was a racist bastard?

(and no I'm not saying Bay is comparable to Wagner in talent...)

[Brónach 1,330]

What the fuck does Christian allegory have to do with how good or bad of a job a director does anyway? Getting your panties in bunch over things that offend you has nothing to do with quality, skill, or craftsmanship.

If one's bothered by how something is handled it's directly related to quality, skill and craftmanship.

I don't know, films tell things... if I think what I'm being told is dumb I'll dislike it in that context. I don't think publicist's angle is necesarily invalid. Films don't exist in a vacuum, they have a context which is our context, and we're not aliens stealing cable.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,110]

Is Wagner a terrible composer because he was racist?

[Koray Savas 2,260]

Die Hard is what we might regard as being "quintessential action cinema", not The Rock lololol

That movie is just really entertaining for being really shit, like AvP or some such nonsense. It's hardly fucking vintage now is it.

Jerry Bruckheimer is synonymous with 90s action. You can't talk about it without involving Bay and The Rock.

AvP is just shit, it's not entertaining, but for some reason you and Steef love it.

[publicist 4,650]

Is Wagner a terrible composer because he was racist?

You fail to understand the point, like Uni, but the Wagner question hits the nail on the head. DEEP IMPACT would have been much worse if it was actually well-made...like Wagner.

The same with Bay. Your elusive argument for Bay's supposed 'talents' basically says that Leni Riefenstahl was just a hip and crafty gal with a talent for film - and at no point of discussing her the word Nazi is to be uttered; because: it's only about her 'talent'! *jeez*

[Koray Savas 2,260]

Would Polanski fit into your point?

[publicist 4,650]

He never directed a movie about child molesting to entertain the general public, so no.

[Naïve Old Fart 13,023]

Personally, I think that there is more Christian allegory in "The Abyss", but that is a whole other story...

?

I don't see it.

One man dying to save the whole world? What's not to see?

Who said worship? It's quintessential action cinema. If your brain can't follow a quick succession of shots then go watch some Terrence Malick.

Cue the worship of Total Recall and other 80s action movies.

If you want a brilliantly edited car-chase, then watch "Ronin": possibly Tony Gibbs' finest hour.

[Brónach 1,330]

Personally, I think that there is more Christian allegory in "The Abyss", but that is a whole other story...

?

I don't see it.

One man dying to save the whole world? What's not to see?

And that very common trope is monopoly of Christianity now?

[Naïve Old Fart 13,023]

Is Wagner a terrible composer because he was racist?

No, but it coloured everything he ever wrote and presented to the world, and that has an impact. A person's world-view counts for a lot, especially in the performing arts.

Personally, I think that there is more Christian allegory in "The Abyss", but that is a whole other story...

?

I don't see it.

One man dying to save the whole world? What's not to see?

And that very common trope is monopoly of Christianity now?

I'm having trouble understanding you. Can you clarify your post, please?

[Brónach 1,330]

I mean that's a common and vague narrative device that isn't exclusive to Christianity. A work of fiction presenting it might not be making a reference to Christianity, or might not even be making a mythological reference at all.

[Naïve Old Fart 13,023]

I mean that's a common and vague narrative device that isn't exclusive to Christianity. A work of fiction presenting it might not be making a reference to Christianity, or might not even be making a mythological reference at all.

Agreed, but that is why I called it "allegory".

[Quintus 6,496]

Die Hard is what we might regard as being "quintessential action cinema", not The Rock lololol

That movie is just really entertaining for being really shit, like AvP or some such nonsense. It's hardly fucking vintage now is it.

Jerry Bruckheimer is synonymous with 90s action. You can't talk about it without involving Bay and The Rock.

So how exactly does that make The Rock "quintessential action cinema"?

AvP is just shit, it's not entertaining, but for some reason you love it.

I do?

[Brónach 1,330]

I mean that's a common and vague narrative device that isn't exclusive to Christianity. A work of fiction presenting it might not be making a reference to Christianity, or might not even be making a mythological reference at all.

Agreed, but that is why I called it "allegory".

I don't see how it can be an allegory of it without further indication. In the mythology, Jesus Christ didn't go down trying to deactivate a nuclear device. I mean, District 9 can be an allegory of District 6, for example. But Abyss and allegory of Christianity? In any case, we could say that both use the trope of heroic sacrifice to save others, but not necesarily that the trope emanates from Christianity and using it becomes an allegory of it.

[Koray Savas 2,260]

Die Hard is what we might regard as being "quintessential action cinema", not The Rock lololol

That movie is just really entertaining for being really shit, like AvP or some such nonsense. It's hardly fucking vintage now is it.

Jerry Bruckheimer is synonymous with 90s action. You can't talk about it without involving Bay and The Rock.

So how exactly does that make The Rock "quintessential action cinema"?

AvP is just shit, it's not entertaining, but for some reason you love it.

I do?

Because it helped establish an influential style of filmmaking in the 90s? If you were to teach a class on 90s action, what films would you choose? Personally I'd go for flicks like Speed, Twister, Crimson Tide, and The Rock.

[Quintus 6,496]

Aside from Speed, the films mentioned aren't considered noteworthy examples of the genre. And it seems even that film has faded into obscurity twenty years later. Terminator 2 and The Matrix are nearer the benchmark quality you allude to, they are the quintessential action movies of that decade, they're the sort of influential and iconic movies I associate with such a reverential term.

I think your admiration of the Simpson/Bruckheimer style is simply attaching a lot more importance to the The Rock and its ilk than they are generally accepted to have. They're niché action movies, their style was aimed squarely at the teenage and young male market. They were aimed at you. That is as far as their own influence went - the lucrative trash market. The true quintessential action movies of that particular decade are the ones with the iconography, same as they are in any decade. What is iconic about The Rock? Sean Connery's hair?

[Brónach 1,330]

I haven't seen Speed and Crimsom Tide, but I've never needed to see The Rock again and Twister isn't good.

I think Koray is also bringing up the idea of influence in the market, regardless of how good that's considered to be. That could be a fair point.

[Uni 307]

Of course it's a fair point. We can argue the quality of these films all day long, but to deny they had an influence on the continuing evolution of popular action movies would be silly. Personally, I think the overall effect of the Bruckheimer/Simpson era was to dumb down the genre a bit more than was necessary, but the bottom line is that those films were popular and made a ton of money. That made it inevitable that their style would be followed in search of the same success. (And that's not to denigrate the films Koray mentioned, either. I personally loved Speed, Crimson Tide, and The Rock.)

I mean that's a common and vague narrative device that isn't exclusive to Christianity. A work of fiction presenting it might not be making a reference to Christianity, or might not even be making a mythological reference at all.

Agreed, but that is why I called it "allegory".

I don't see how it can be an allegory of it without further indication. In the mythology, Jesus Christ didn't go down trying to deactivate a nuclear device. I mean, District 9 can be an allegory of District 6, for example. But Abyss and allegory of Christianity? In any case, we could say that both use the trope of heroic sacrifice to save others, but not necesarily that the trope emanates from Christianity and using it becomes an allegory of it.

Exactly. Mythology is rife with examples of sacrificial heroes. Funny how no one ever claims a movie is an allegory of the Nibelungenlied, isn't it?

This goes to what I was saying earlier--and believe me, I understood your point far better than you think, publicist. Allegory, metaphors, and mythological parallels are all in the eye of the beholder. If you look hard enough you could claim Taxi Driver as a modern-day retelling of Homer. Doesn't mean the director intended it that way, or that anyone else is going to reach the same conclusion. (In the case of The Abyss, I can promise you James Cameron wasn't trying to create a Christian allegory of any kind.)

- Uni

[Quintus 6,496]

This isn't a conversation about subjective reaction to a movie. Koray applied the word 'quintessential' to The Rock, which I dispute. Since then he has elaborated a little and it has become apparent that he was referring to nineties action cinema and not all of cinema through the decades - as he originally implied, which while being somewhat less fawning and contentious, I still believe to be wrong. What does quintessential actually mean? That is my point here. QuintESSENTIAL. What exactly is essential about The Rock? It's just another genre piece which shares its style with a number of brethren movies produced under the same banner. It's not unique, it doesn't stand out.

To suggest it is quintessential is to rank it alongside the greats of the genre - which whilst being a nonsense, is also a disservice. Collectively influential and quintessential are not the same thing. The Rock is not essential action cinema in the way that a movie such as Die Hard is. How insulting and distasteful it would be to suggest otherwise.

That is the only point I'm making. Basically the same problem Joey has with people throwing "GREAT" around like it's going out of fashion.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,386]

I see Lee's point. But of the 90's "Bruckheimer action films" The Rock is without doubt the best one!

[Quintus 6,496]

I prefer Con Air by a mile

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,386]

Only ever saw bits of it. Doesn't Buschemi play a paedo?

[Pieter Boelen 1,032]

What does quintessential actually mean? That is my point here. QuintESSENTIAL. What exactly is essential about The Rock?

What does quintessential actually mean? That is my point here. QUINTessential. What exactly is Quint about The Rock?

(Couldn't resist! )

[Quintus 6,496]

Heh heh, I see wot you did thar

Only ever saw bits of it. Doesn't Buschemi play a paedo?

Yeah, but it's okay because he's a loveable one.

It's a preposterously entertaining actioner.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,386]

There is no reason to ever use the phrase "lovable paedophile" in any sentence in real life.

[Uni 307]

That's funny. I loved The Rock, couldn't stand Con Air.

- Uni

[Quintus 6,496]

There is no reason to ever use the phrase "lovable paedophile" in any sentence in real life.

I suppose my boundaries for comedy are more forgiving than yours.

That's funny. I loved The Rock, couldn't stand Con Air.

Ugh, you sick fuck!

[Marian Schedenig 11,694]

That's funny. I loved The Rock, couldn't stand Con Air.

I couldn't stand either.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,386]

There is no reason to ever use the phrase "lovable paedophile" in any sentence in real life.

I suppose my boundaries for comedy are more forgiving than yours.

Just like there is no reason to ever learn the sentence "That's a really ugly baby"!

[Quintus 6,496]

Got a face only a mother could love is such a timeless baby insult

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,386]

IT'S NOT FUNNY!!!

[Brónach 1,330]

Well, the baby doesn't care.

[Ollie 1,375]

That's funny. I loved The Rock, couldn't stand Con Air.

- Uni

Both were awful, in fact when i finally saw The Rock, i couldn't believe the hype the film had. Ed Harris is the only thing worthwhile in the film. Speed and Twister were fun. Armageddon is awful, which is a shame because the cast is good.

I have a soft spot for Deep Impact because my cousin is an extra in one of the scenes.

If you were to combine Impact and Bay's version, you might end up with a solid summer film.

[Brónach 1,330]

Or you might end up with the worst of both.

[Ollie 1,375]

True. Just trying to be positive.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,386]

I used to do that!

[Quintus 6,496]

I believe in you Peter.