JWFan's new bootleg discussion policy

[Maxxie 1]

Well to be fair, I was NOT the one who announced to the board that the BTTF2 and BTTF3 complete scores leaked. They were already being discussed in random threads, I merely created a single thread to discuss them in. It wasn't my intention to use the thread as an announcement, it was merely to create a consolidated place for those of us who cared to discuss the music.

Also, in Jason's defence, the title of the BTTF thread also had "...For discussing THE MUSIC not where to get it!!..." in it.

[Richard P 5,303]

Marc, perhaps you could take a quick look through the Back To The Future thread and let us know what things that were said in it are and are not allowed under the new rules?

And while he's at it, let us know what types of sneezing are allowed when we're in the vicinity of the screen...

I hate rules that have a million subsections saying 'you can do abcde, but not abcd'. Just don't create threads like the BTTF one again or make it stupendously obvious when you've got hold of a boot. Got it. But completely banning so much as a mention of any illegitimately obtained music isn't going to work around here and I think everyone knows that.

I feel like the problem with the FSM CDs getting announced ahead of time is bleeding into a completely unrelated recording session leak discussion issue. They should be considered separate issues.

Nothing links them as far as I'm concerned. I'm absolutely fine with the 'no pre-announcing CDs' rule.

[Jay 46,244]

Just don't create threads like the BTTF one again or make it stupendously obvious when you've got hold of a boot. Got it.

I have no problem with that either

I'm absolutely fine with the 'no pre-announcing CDs' rule.

Me too

But completely banning so much as a mention of any illegitimately obtained music isn't going to work around here and I think everyone knows that.

Yea I don't get it either. Maybe if we could be given examples of how the BTTF or Schindler's List recording session discussion could have been handled under the new rules I would understand.

[King Mark 3,975]

Well to be fair, I was NOT the one who announced to the board that the BTTF2 and BTTF3 complete scores leaked. They were already being discussed in random threads, I merely created a single thread to discuss them in. It wasn't my intention to use the thread as an announcement, it was merely to create a consolidated place for those of us who cared to discuss the music.

Also, in Jason's defence, the title of the BTTF thread also had "...For discussing THE MUSIC not where to get it!!..." in it.

Yes,but even as someone totally against this new rule, I thought that was pushing it ...because some other things were already getting touchy (like listening to KotCS a week before release)

[Wojo 2,458]

Wait, there's a complete score to Schindler's List floating around? Awesome. It's not enough that there's a 70 minute OST I never listened to. Now there's a complete score I'll never listen to, either.

[Henry B 51]

What I still feel is fuzzy about new rules about is what we are and are not allowed to say about bootlegged material in general. Marc, perhaps you could take a quick look through the Back To The Future thread and let us know what things that were said in it are and are not allowed under the new rules? When I just read through I never once say anyone talking about downloading it or where to get it. It was all just discussion of the music itself.

Yes, I would like some clarification on this matter. Is it permissible to discuss music that, as far as anyone knows, can only be heard on a bootleg, or is acknowledging its very existence taboo? For example, under an extreme application of this new rule we wouldn't be allowed to discuss the original version of "Indy Rides the Statue" from Raiders or Yared's Troy (yeah, there were some samples on his web site for a while, but he was forced to remove them, so I guess if you still possess those files you're an unwitting pirate). To me that's absolutely ridiculous, given that many around here consider Troy one of the greatest scores of recent years. How about all those concert suites Williams has a habit of premiering at the Hollywood Bowl? Would I have to scan my ticket stub and e-mail it to a moderator to prove that I heard the music live rather than through a bootlegged recording?

I'm obviously being a bit sarcastic, but it's such a slippery slope. Where exactly do you draw the line?

[Quintus 6,496]

One thing's certain, I'd have never leaked the unreleased RotK video game music here under the new rules, which would have sucked for you guys in a BIG way. It's rare and exciting EVENTS like that which make being a film music fan a lot of fun.

[Richard P 5,303]

Indeed. That was a major find.

And if we have to resort to PM'ing certain 'circles', that'll just create a cliquey (sp?) feeling that I don't like. I like this place because it's so open, and the collaboration that goes on when making edits, etc. Just look at the work that our Indy edits took. No way could we do that without mentioning boots, DVD rips and the like, and yet it's exactly that sort of obsessive fandom that made it possible.

In other words, if this rule were fully implemented, it would make a major change in what makes this place, and I don't think it's worth that.

[Wojo 2,458]

It is a dark time for the rebellion...

[Richard P 5,303]

"This day... we fight!!!"

[Quintus 6,496]

Ride now! Ride now! Riiiiiiiiiide!

[Jill Sandwich 11,166]

[Ollie 1,375]

I like Quint's new signature.

When I was a young lad, my sister had the LP with MJ narrating E.T. I used to listen to it to hear the unreleased music on it but it became a chore to sit thru and listen to Jackson talk.

[Luke Skywalker 2,383]

Yeah it is scarily funny.

Wait, there's a complete score to Schindler's List floating around? Awesome. It's not enough that there's a 70 minute OST I never listened to. Now there's a complete score I'll never listen to, either.

You havent heard a note of the score?

Now there's lacking common sense...

[Ollie 1,375]

Yeah it is scarily funny.

Listening to the album is just as bad.

MJ was just a tad bit too excited for my liking.

[Wojo 2,458]

Wait, there's a complete score to Schindler's List floating around? Awesome. It's not enough that there's a 70 minute OST I never listened to. Now there's a complete score I'll never listen to, either.

You havent heard a note of the score?

Now there's lacking common sense...

You're not the first person to point that out to me. Apparently my original post was more poignant: I have never wanted to hear a note of it. Now does that meet your prerequisite for common sense?

[Luke Skywalker 2,383]

Wait, there's a complete score to Schindler's List floating around? Awesome. It's not enough that there's a 70 minute OST I never listened to. Now there's a complete score I'll never listen to, either.

You havent heard a note of the score?

Now there's lacking common sense...

You're not the first person to point that out to me. Apparently my original post was more poignant: I have never wanted to hear a note of it. Now does that meet your prerequisite for common sense?

Anyone in their senses would not ban himself litening to one of John Williams greatest works.

I would at least hear it once and then choose if i like or i dont like it.

[Wojo 2,458]

Anytime you want to stop insulting my senses would be fine with me. Thank you.

[King Mark 3,975]

And if we have to resort to PM'ing certain 'circles', that'll just create a cliquey (sp?) feeling that I don't like. I like this place because it's so open, and the collaboration that goes on when making edits, etc. Just look at the work that our Indy edits took. No way could we do that without mentioning boots, DVD rips and the like, and yet it's exactly that sort of obsessive fandom that made it possible.

In other words, if this rule were fully implemented, it would make a major change in what makes this place, and I don't think it's worth that.

This is what I mean all along , with my "hissy fit ". Mark O's "lets just wait until it's released eventually by FSM or Intrada" type of attitude is the opposite.

[Luke Skywalker 2,383]

Anytime you want to stop insulting my senses would be fine with me. Thank you.

The first was a joke. And i would not consider the second a gross insult

You are taking it too seriously.

Sorry anyway

[Jay 46,244]

The irony of this whole debacle?

The Goonies boot wasn't even a recording sessions leak. it's just the re-recording mixed with rear channel rips.

http://www.thegoonies.org/BB/viewtopic.php?t=5532

God damn it. Sorry, everyone. I suck.

[Maestro 1,602]

So what's this all about? Something about licking somebody's bootlegs? I fell asleep...

[Goldsmithfan 6]

Read it here

http://jwfan.com/forums/index.php?act=anno...p;f=1&id=21

Dear JWFanners,

For a long time, the discussion of bootlegs or other leaked material has been tolerated on JWFan.net.

Unfortunately, it has lately grown to such a phenomenon that leaks of much sought-after material is announced as if it were news (which, let's face it, it sort of is, but it's still illegal). This includes leaks of bootleg scores as well as artwork for upcoming releases.

As a result, JWFan.net is turning into something of a pirate cove lately and it is not a direction the moderating team wishes to go in. JWFan.net wishes to support the official release of motion picture soundtracks both by major record labels and niche market labels such as Varèse, LaLaLand, Intrada, FSM, etc. The open discussion of leaked materials does not help that.

Therefore, effective immediately, the discussion of leaked bootlegs, recording sessions etc. is prohibited on the JWFan.net message boards.

Now, because we have a thing called The Custom Covers Thread where unofficial artwork is regularly posted, there is a a slight amendment to that as well: for anything other than alternate artwork (being alternate covers for an existing official release), please remove the complete tracklisting from the back cover.

Old postings will remain intact, but new posts will be watched with a closer eye.

This does not affect threads like the Star Wars Prequel Music Resours, which involve JWFanners' own personal projects without use of leaked recording sessions.

I hope you can understand and will observe this new rule.

Thank you,

- Marc

Discuss.

(Yes, this appears to be why my Goonies thread was completely deleted)

Personally, I'm glad. Bootlegs are much more trouble than they're worth and I plan to avoid them at all costs in the future. Music is no reason to get arrested. Blamo.

[King Mark 3,975]

Arrested? For possession of film score bootlegs? That's just the most stupid thing someone has posted in this thread

On the planet that i live in that has never happened and never will

[Genius_Gone_Insane 5]

Without reading any of the entries on this thread, any useful discussion of this topic would break the forum's older rule about not discussing politics in the forum. Hence, I'm not reading or posting here.

[Koray Savas 2,260]

Arrested? For possession of film score bootlegs? That's just the most stupid thing someone has posted in this thread

On the planet that i live in that has never happened and never will

You won't get arrested if you can pay the ridiculous fine.

[Wojo 2,458]

You won't get arrested if you can pay the ridiculous fine.

I'll sell you my "Get out of jail free" card for $49. One day only. It's a steal.

[King Mark 3,975]

Arrested? For possession of film score bootlegs? That's just the most stupid thing someone has posted in this thread

On the planet that i live in that has never happened and never will

You won't get arrested if you can pay the ridiculous fine.

There's no fines for bootlegs ,it can't be enforced. Even if you call the president of the RIAA and personally tell him you have an unofficial 2 c.d. Hook "promo" , there's probably nothing he can do about it .I'm not a lawyer but there is still a limit on how copyright laws can be enforced.

I think your getting confused with downloading songs or movies on P2P's and getting caught.

[Koray Savas 2,260]

Ah yes, that I am. I used to use LimeWire a lot a few years ago. Not so much these days.

[John Crichton 4]

I've always avoided file sharing programs like the plague, for multiple reasons.

[Koray Savas 2,260]

You can set the settings so none of your files actually get shared.

[Wojo 2,458]

I found that out only after Metallica got me banned from Napster.

[Marian Schedenig 11,694]

There's no fines for bootlegs ,it can't be enforced. Even if you call the president of the RIAA and personally tell him you have an unofficial 2 c.d. Hook "promo" , there's probably nothing he can do about it .I'm not a lawyer but there is still a limit on how copyright laws can be enforced.

How so? A copyright violation is a copyright violation.

I think your getting confused with downloading songs or movies on P2P's and getting caught.

Same thing.

[Quintus 6,496]

Ah yes, that I am. I used to use LimeWire a lot a few years ago. Not so much these days.

Only because you eventually acquired pretty much everything you sought

[BTR1701 60]

Can't say I like it, but considering the recent take-down of The Pirate Bay, I can understand why you have to do it.

They don't *have* to do it.

The Pirate Bay was in Sweden and it did a lot more than just provide a forum for talking and discussion. Free speech protections in America are the strongest in the world. Assuming this site is hosted in America, there is absolutely no legal requirement to ban discussions of bootlegs and leaked material. The 1st Amendment and 200+ years of Supreme Court jurisprudence ensure that such discussions are legally protected speech. If the person who owns and runs this forum wants to ban them, that's certainly his right, but he's certainly not legally required to ban them.

[John Crichton 4]

Assuming this site is hosted in America...

It's not.

[BTR1701 60]

It's not a a stupid rule. Almost all the other message boards, to include ones not associated with film music, have very strict policies regarding bootleg discussions.

Back in 1999 it was somewhat acceptable to discuss these as well as buy them from several of the major online retailers. However as more licensing opportunities became available, it became apparent that these discussions would hurt the labels chances of getting the material to people legally. I'm sure certain studios probably dropped subtle hints to several of these labels that have message boards that it might be in the best interest to put a hush to all the bootleg talk.

This site has grown and is probably the most active message board amongst sites devoted to one composer. JGOnline does not allow bootleg discussions or even the trading of them, I know Koray mentioned the Zimmer forum is the same way.

I have to laugh at those who think this message board is too strict. Marc does a great job but there are other sites where even questioning the moderator gets one banned.

This is why Usenet is such a valuable forum and it will be a dark day indeed if it ever dies off. People can discuss whatever they want, whenever they want and however they want and there's no moderator out there to stop them, and there's no centralized forum for record labels to threaten.

I think a lot of people will just plain leave the MB because of this rule.

Better than having our admins and moderators dragged to court someday.

It would never even make it to court. Any lawsuit has to have some basis in law and suing someone who a forum where people are merely talking about bootlegs has none.

Even if people were posting links (heck, if they were somehow posting the actual bootlegs), the hosts of the forum would be protected by the DMCA safe harbor provisions, so long as they took them down at the request of the copyright holder. YouTube is a perfect example of this. YouTube isn't liable every time someone posts a copyrighted video. They just have to take it down when the real owner asks them to.

So if posting actual copyrighted content won't meet the legal requirements for a lawsuit, there's no way mere discussion of it could ever result in liability for the forum moderators.

Plus, there's the 1st Amendment to consider. No law, statute, or copyright trumps the Constitution. And no rights holder has the legal authority to shut down discussion it doesn't like and use the government (the courts) to enforce it. That would be a bright-line violation of the 1st Amendment.

[Jay 46,244]

It would never even make it to court. Any lawsuit has to have some basis in law and suing someone who a forum where people are merely talking about bootlegs has none.

Even if people were posting links (heck, if they were somehow posting the actual bootlegs), the hosts of the forum would be protected by the DMCA safe harbor provisions, so long as they took them down at the request of the copyright holder. YouTube is a perfect example of this. YouTube isn't liable every time someone posts a copyrighted video. They just have to take it down when the real owner asks them to.

So if posting actual copyrighted content won't meet the legal requirements for a lawsuit, there's no way mere discussion of it could ever result in liability for the forum moderators.

Thank you

[BTR1701 60]

Assuming this site is hosted in America...

It's not.

Interesting. I assumed from all the discussion of the RIAA that it was.

Where is it hosted then?

[Wojo 2,458]

It's hosted in Europe. The Constitution doesn't apply in Europe any more than each country's rules apply over here.

I'm just not sure how the Constitution was thrown at the Pirate Bay fellows in Sweden. Probably money.

[BTR1701 60]

It's hosted in Europe. The Constitution doesn't apply in Europe any more than each country's rules apply over here.

I'm just not sure how the Constitution was thrown at the Pirate Bay fellows in Sweden. Probably money.

Well, then the simple solution would be to sign up with an American host. It's what I'd do if I were, say, living in Europe and hosting a forum like this. It doesn't require you to physically move anywhere. You can live in Europe and operate a site hosted on American servers and enjoy all the protections of American law.

[Wojo 2,458]

I'm gonna stop posting in this thread........right now.

[Marian Schedenig 11,694]

It would never even make it to court. Any lawsuit has to have some basis in law and suing someone who a forum where people are merely talking about bootlegs has none.

Linking to illegally distributed copyrighted content is what the whole Piratebay case is based on. Obviously the dimensions are different, but technically it's still the same.

Plus, there's the 1st Amendment to consider. No law, statute, or copyright trumps the Constitution. And no rights holder has the legal authority to shut down discussion it doesn't like and use the government (the courts) to enforce it. That would be a bright-line violation of the 1st Amendment.

And it's not hard to come up with several instances where stuff like this has happened on a large scale, but we're getting off the board policies here. And as has been pointed out, the site is hosted in Europe anyway.

Well, then the simple solution would be to sign up with an American host. It's what I'd do if I were, say, living in Europe and hosting a forum like this. It doesn't require you to physically move anywhere. You can live in Europe and operate a site hosted on American servers and enjoy all the protections of American law.

It's worrisome enough here, but I still feel a lot safer from the arbitrariness of the content industry here than in the US. At least tightening copyright measures and prolonging copyright efficiency beyond any rational length (something originally effected by Disney) are still heavily discussed here and not just enforced under anti-terrorism law.

[King Mark 3,975]

It would never even make it to court. Any lawsuit has to have some basis in law and suing someone who a forum where people are merely talking about bootlegs has none.

Linking to illegally distributed copyrighted content is what the whole Piratebay case is based on. Obviously the dimensions are different, but technically it's still the same.

Were not "a smaller version of The Pirate Bay" We never linked to any files here . Were referring to leaked recording sessions for discussion purpose without saying where you can get them . What is so hard to understand that you always have to shove everyone in the same boat?

There's about 10 billions hosting sites with real links they need to shut down first before they'd even think about bothering us. And those sites are not even hidden in the form of message boards , they are out in the open with bold links to click on.

There's no fines for bootlegs ,it can't be enforced. Even if you call the president of the RIAA and personally tell him you have an unofficial 2 c.d. Hook "promo" , there's probably nothing he can do about it .I'm not a lawyer but there is still a limit on how copyright laws can be enforced.

How so? A copyright violation is a copyright violation.

You posts seem completely disconnected with reality sometimes. Just cite me one example , in real life, of anyone ever getting fined/sued/arrested for owning a film score bootleg and you'll make a point. Even if you openly sell them on ebay and get reported, the worst that can happen to you is that you'll be forced to remove the listing

[ins 42]

You posts seem completely disconnected with reality sometimes. Just cite me one example , in real life, of anyone ever getting fined/sued/arrested for owning a film score bootleg and you'll make a point. Even if you openly sell them on ebay and get reported, the worst that can happen to you is that you'll be forced to remove the listing

I don't wanna put in here more salt, but this site is hosted in Germany, and according to our laws, the moderator(s) of this forum are responsible for every content provided here so they can be dragged to court.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

You posts seem completely disconnected with reality sometimes.

lololololol

[Jabatus 0]

Guns are forbidden in some countries in Europe.. is it ilegal talking about different models of guns or machine guns?

[Richard P 5,303]

I use that sort of argument a lot.

It's like the MPAA is suing someone who makes one of ten billion DVD-ripping programs because it can be used to make your friend a copy of a DVD. The suit totally ignores the fact that it's a consumer's right to make a backup copy.

Honestly, by their arguments, a pencil should be illegal because you can use it to gravely injure someone.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Honestly, by their arguments, a pencil should be illegal because you can use it to gravely injure someone.

I don't really agree with that. Where a program's primary use is copying DVDs, I can understand the MPAA maybe getting up in arms about it (not that I necessarily agree with that). A pencil's primary use is artistic. Using one as a weapon is not a behaviour that is widely expected by pencil manufacturers. Whereas providing sophisticated software for the use of something which they are trying to combat as a whole is a different kettle of fish.

However, I don't necessarily believe this is all down to threats from the majors, but rather as explained before, it can hurt the smaller companies, such as FSM and Intrada, as this is their bread and butter, and while a lot of us will still buy officially licenced CDs of material we own as bootlegs, not everyone maybe will.

This is not to say I agree with the new rule, I don't, but I think some need to see it from Marc/Ricard's point of view before crying out about our civil liberties being infringed. Hell, KM is just panicking because he thinks he won't get a look in when the Star Wars prequel recording sessions are leaked.

[Wojo 2,458]

Guns are forbidden in some countries in Europe.. is it ilegal talking about different models of guns or machine guns?

Hey, tell ya what I'm gonna do. I found this awesome website where you type in a code and you can download a machine gun. Free of charge. Sssh, don't tell anyone, it's a secret. I won't give you the website where you can download free ammo, though.

They ban metal cutlery and pocketknives on airplanes and in schools because they can be used as weapons, so they give you plastic. Yet they haven't banned fists yet. The human hand is the most elegant and easily concealable weapon ever designed by man or nature, yet it continues to go unregulated. Sure, ban guns. Ban knives. Ban nunchuks. Ban pencils. But Cain killed Abel with his bare hands. How safe do you really feel?