JWFan's new bootleg discussion policy

[Ollie 1,375]

You posts seem completely disconnected with reality sometimes.

lololololol

[King Mark 3,975]

It's like the MPAA is suing someone who makes one of ten billion DVD-ripping programs because it can be used to make your friend a copy of a DVD. The suit totally ignores the fact that it's a consumer's right to make a backup copy.

Yes they are suing the software companies making those programs . I just don't believe anyone is getting sued for just naming any of these softwares on a message board , like the moderators of this forum are trying to make us think . The way they talk , there is army of lawyers scrutinizing every single post here for mere allusion to copyright infringement , ready to pounce with a cease and desist letter to Andreas.

Honestly, by their arguments, a pencil should be illegal because you can use it to gravely injure someone.

I can also use a pencil to copy a book , which makes it another instrument of copyright infringement. So you better say all you have to say about pencils before they are banned from discussion here too

[BTR1701 60]

It would never even make it to court. Any lawsuit has to have some basis in law and suing someone who a forum where people are merely talking about bootlegs has none.

Linking to illegally distributed copyrighted content is what the whole Piratebay case is based on. Obviously the dimensions are different, but technically it's still the same.

Plus, there's the 1st Amendment to consider. No law, statute, or copyright trumps the Constitution. And no rights holder has the legal authority to shut down discussion it doesn't like and use the government (the courts) to enforce it. That would be a bright-line violation of the 1st Amendment.

And it's not hard to come up with several instances where stuff like this has happened on a large scale, but we're getting off the board policies here. And as has been pointed out, the site is hosted in Europe anyway.

I understand that things may be different in Germany but just from a philosophical standpoint, it seems somewhat odd to go to all the time and effort to run a discussion group, which by its very nature is a forum for the free exchange of ideas, and then not stand up in even the smallest way for the principles of free speech; to basically cave to every threat and demand and whim of a bunch of private companies who have no public accountability whatsoever for their actions. (It's not like they can be voted out of office if the public doesn't like what they do.) And this is especially true in this case, where people aren't providing infringing content, they're not linking to infringing content, they're not even describing where it can be found. All they're doing simply talking about the aesthetics of the content itself. That's certainly protected speech in America, as well as under the EU charter (of which Germany is a signatory) and every country in between.

I don't really have a dog in this fight because I'm wholly uninterested in bootlegs, but it just pains me to see how many people at every level of society both in America and around the world are willing to give up their freedoms to governments and corporations without so much as a peep, let alone put up any kind of fight, because it's the convenient and easy road to take. As I said before, the owners of the site have every right to run it however they want. It's just disappointing to see yet another example of someone choosing the path of submission instead fighting for what's right.

[King Mark 3,975]

Actually , this MB getting to the point where it's beyond submission. It's submitting to laws that don't exist , "just in case"

[Ollie 1,375]

Some of us are doing it so the labels can get these scores out legally. I know that's lost on some people.

One of the great things about this country is that you have the freedom top create your own message board and discuss bootlegs all you want.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Actually , this MB getting to the point where it's beyond submission. It's submitting to laws that don't exist , "just in case"

Which laws might those be, Perry Mason?

[Jill Sandwich 11,166]

I understand that things may be different in Germany but just from a philosophical standpoint, it seems somewhat odd to go to all the time and effort to run a discussion group, which by its very nature is a forum for the free exchange of ideas, and then not stand up in even the smallest way for the principles of free speech; to basically cave to every threat and demand and whim of a bunch of private companies who have no public accountability whatsoever for their actions. (It's not like they can be voted out of office if the public doesn't like what they do.) And this is especially true in this case, where people aren't providing infringing content, they're not linking to infringing content, they're not even describing where it can be found. All they're doing simply talking about the aesthetics of the content itself. That's certainly protected speech in America, as well as under the EU charter (of which Germany is a signatory) and every country in between.

I don't really have a dog in this fight because I'm wholly uninterested in bootlegs, but it just pains me to see how many people at every level of society both in America and around the world are willing to give up their freedoms to governments and corporations without so much as a peep, let alone put up any kind of fight, because it's the convenient and easy road to take. As I said before, the owners of the site have every right to run it however they want. It's just disappointing to see yet another example of someone choosing the path of submission instead fighting for what's right.

This sounds very SLAPP to me. Unfortunate because the little guy has to live in fear of lawsuits, which are time and money consuming, that just aren't worth the effort.

[King Mark 3,975]

Actually , this MB getting to the point where it's beyond submission. It's submitting to laws that don't exist , "just in case"

Which laws might those be, Perry Mason?

the law that says it's illegal to type "DVDX***y"* (*randomly made up name) on a Message Board

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Actually , this MB getting to the point where it's beyond submission. It's submitting to laws that don't exist , "just in case"

Which laws might those be, Perry Mason?

the law that says it's illegal to type "DVDXcopy" (made up name)

Rrright...

[King Mark 3,975]

oh wait I just googled it and it exists ...sorry

[Jill Sandwich 11,166]

What are the odds of that??

[BTR1701 60]

Some of us are doing it so the labels can get these scores out legally. I know that's lost on some people.

The discussions on this message board (or any other) are in no way, shape, or form preventing a label from releasing a score. If they're not releasing them, that's their choice.

[Ollie 1,375]

The less support and discussion bootleggers and illegal file sharing sites get the better chance the labels have to release this stuff. That's why Intrada & FSM have banned the discussion of bootlegs.

In fact almost every filmscore/composer message board have banned the discussion and trading of files, CD-Rs, bootlegs etc etc.

JWFAN is not my board, it's not your board. We are guests here and there are rules. If you don't like it you can form your own board and discuss anything you want.

[Henry B 51]

The less support and discussion bootleggers and illegal file sharing sites get the better chance the labels have to release this stuff. That's why Intrada & FSM have banned the discussion of bootlegs.

I don't think that's often been the case on this board. It's not like an expanded Hook wouldn't sell out in an instant just because a lot of people have the "Concorde" boot. Most of the titles Intrada and FSM have difficulty selling are less popular titles that are seldom bootlegged anyway.

[Ollie 1,375]

Well there must be a reason because practically every site I visit bans the discussion of bootleg materials, and that includes non film score sites.

FSM & Intrada have the obvious reason for banning the topic.

[King Mark 3,975]

You know this is still an unofficial John Williams message board with a sub group of "obsessed" people that want every note Williams has composed , even if they get it unofficially.

Your the guy who owns the E.T. Lazerdisk with an isolated score but never bothered to record the unreleased cues ,no wonder you don't give a shit about this new rule. All you seem to want to do is speculate about the next Intrada/FSM releases

[Ollie 1,375]

As opposed to your silly & ridiculous paranoid posts. If a John Williams score is released and it isn't Harry Potter, Star Wars or IJ you thumb your nose at it.

[Jay 46,242]

I think this thread has out-lived its usefulness

[Henry B 51]

Everybody thinks they're right.

[Ollie 1,375]

I think this thread has out-lived its usefulness

Yes.

[King Mark 3,975]

As opposed to your silly & ridiculous paranoid posts. If a John Williams score is released and it isn't Harry Potter, Star Wars or IJ you thumb your nose at it.

alright, let me ask then..those 3 extra cues from the KotCS DVD , did you add them to your KotCS c.d. to expand the OST?

[Ollie 1,375]

No.

I don't like DVD rips to begin with.

[King Mark 3,975]

No.

I don't like DVD rips to begin with.

well, there you go, what it does mean is that your not really interested to add unreleased music to your John Williams scores even if it's right there. .

[John Crichton 4]

Everybody thinks they're right.

No, I'm right.

[Ollie 1,375]

No.

I don't like DVD rips to begin with.

well, there you go, that's exactly what I'm talking about . (BTW these aren't rear channel rips,they are c.d. quality cues clean of sound effects).

Quite frankly 77 mins of KOTCS is enough, the rest of the music that didn't get released really isn't that interesting.

I'm more interested in getting Williams music, that hasn't been released, available before the tapes suffer damage or get lost.

[King Mark 3,975]

To a lot of us these are 3 excellent cues that greatly enhance the OST and a godsend they were included on the DVD.

But we all know what the next rule is:

-Any discussion about unofficially released music appearing in DVD menus, special features and videogames is now prohibited.

[Marian Schedenig 11,694]

Were not "a smaller version of The Pirate Bay"

That's not what I said.

We never linked to any files here.

There have been links in the past.

Were referring to leaked recording sessions for discussion purpose without saying where you can get them . What is so hard to understand that you always have to shove everyone in the same boat?

I don't. But I understand the concerns of the moderators.

Just cite me one example , in real life, of anyone ever getting fined/sued/arrested for owning a film score bootleg and you'll make a point. Even if you openly sell them on ebay and get reported, the worst that can happen to you is that you'll be forced to remove the listing

Technically, a record company can shut the site down and sue the admins. And if they don't want to risk that, I expect that.

[Wojo 2,458]

But we all know what the next rule is:

-Any discussion about unofficially released music appearing in DVD menus, special features and videogames is now prohibited.

I don't think that would be a good rule. Mentioning what unreleased music appears in commercial products is an incentive to go buy those works, whether they be video games, DVDs, or other digital media. Yes, it's often hard to extract music from console games, leading people to distribute them illegally, and other people are too lazy to rip music from DVDs or PC games themselves.

But with that notion, we had better not discuss ANY commercial product from now on because people might copy it. Hey, did you know the Indy IV DVD has the full Indy IV movie on it? Want me to burn you a copy? <SLAP>

I'm pretty sure that the labels don't want us distributing bootleg soundtracks because they're working towards releasing so many soundtracks, which are still only available in bootleg form, and so they put a halt on all such conversation and trading so as to not cut into future sales. If I had followed my heart two days ago and asked for the complete Airplane bootleg score (which is just a low quality DVD rip that any knucklehead could rip himself), it would've cut into the potential sale of a retail CD which was right around the corner, unbeknownst to me at the time.

[Trent B 354]

I think Ricard has been threatened once with legal action if memory serves...

[King Mark 3,975]

that was about 6 years ago, when you could download the Indiana Jones bootleg on the main page .

Technically, a record company can shut the site down and sue the admins. And if they don't want to risk that, I expect that.

Again,where do you get that type of info ? Companies can't shut down websites because they don't like what's being discussed. The Internet wouldn't work if that was the case

[Jill Sandwich 11,166]

By that logic, the American government would have had Alex Jones shut down years ago.

[Quintus 6,495]

A think a short prison sentence would do the lot of us a world of good. I hear they have fast internet in gaol.

[Marian Schedenig 11,694]

Again,where do you get that type of info ? Companies can't shut down websites because they don't like what's being discussed. The Internet wouldn't work if that was the case

They can have their lawyer send a letter to the site owner threatening legal action. Now if Ricard and Andreas are fine with that and want to risk taking the case to court (perhaps not a big risk, I have no experience there), that's their choice. And if they don't want to risk that, that's very certainly their choice, too.

[Wojo 2,458]

Great community and people aside, this website is not worth going to court for. It probably doesn't make much, if any, money because it has not become a place for corporate sponsorship. We do enough free advertising for the soundtrack labels, both indie and mainstream, by our word of mouth promotions, reviews, and "hey, I didn't know that existed, thanks!" discussions. But the labels aren't giving our benefactors any money for such promotion. So if Andreas and Ricard want to take the steps needed to keep this site under the radar of the one what-if greedy corporate lawyer looking for *any* excuse to bring a copyright lawsuit to bear, because they don't want to be the ones to have to pay the lawyers to combat such an action, even if there's a chance that our bootleg actions are in fact morally right and could win, that's their choice. By the time you actually explain your intentions to the lawyer and convince him, "oh yea, I guess the bootleg music you're trading really isn't available in stores, so it must be ok," and he throws out the case, it's become too expensive.

[Luke Skywalker 2,383]

If the labels want us to support only official CDs, they should sponsor the site.

Quid pro quo, Ms. Starling.

[King Mark 3,975]

If the labels want us to support only official CDs, they should sponsor the site.

Quid pro quo, Ms. Starling.

well there you go

Also keep in mind I'd agree to to the rule if it was just about making Thread Title Announcements that "XXX Recording Session has Leaked " ,aka the Goonies/BTTF threads .

[chinaismine 64]

Again,where do you get that type of info ? Companies can't shut down websites because they don't like what's being discussed. The Internet wouldn't work if that was the case

They can have their lawyer send a letter to the site owner threatening legal action. Now if Ricard and Andreas are fine with that and want to risk taking the case to court (perhaps not a big risk, I have no experience there), that's their choice. And if they don't want to risk that, that's very certainly their choice, too.

Any Joe Blow could have their lawyer send a letter to the site owner threatening legal action; that doesn't mean the threat would have any legal merit. I'm not gonna pretend to know the motivation behind this new rule, but let's be honest and agree it has nothing to do with possible legal repercussions. There is absolutely nothing illegal about simply discussing bootlegged material. If links were being provided that might be a different story, but those were banned a long time before this new rule.

[Marian Schedenig 11,694]

Great community and people aside, this website is not worth going to court for. It probably doesn't make much, if any, money because it has not become a place for corporate sponsorship. We do enough free advertising for the soundtrack labels, both indie and mainstream, by our word of mouth promotions, reviews, and "hey, I didn't know that existed, thanks!" discussions. But the labels aren't giving our benefactors any money for such promotion. So if Andreas and Ricard want to take the steps needed to keep this site under the radar of the one what-if greedy corporate lawyer looking for *any* excuse to bring a copyright lawsuit to bear, because they don't want to be the ones to have to pay the lawyers to combat such an action, even if there's a chance that our bootleg actions are in fact morally right and could win, that's their choice. By the time you actually explain your intentions to the lawyer and convince him, "oh yea, I guess the bootleg music you're trading really isn't available in stores, so it must be ok," and he throws out the case, it's become too expensive.

That's pretty much what I've trying to say all along. Very good.

[King Mark 3,975]

Great community and people aside, this website is not worth going to court for. It probably doesn't make much, if any, money because it has not become a place for corporate sponsorship. We do enough free advertising for the soundtrack labels, both indie and mainstream, by our word of mouth promotions, reviews, and "hey, I didn't know that existed, thanks!" discussions. But the labels aren't giving our benefactors any money for such promotion. So if Andreas and Ricard want to take the steps needed to keep this site under the radar of the one what-if greedy corporate lawyer looking for *any* excuse to bring a copyright lawsuit to bear, because they don't want to be the ones to have to pay the lawyers to combat such an action, even if there's a chance that our bootleg actions are in fact morally right and could win, that's their choice. By the time you actually explain your intentions to the lawyer and convince him, "oh yea, I guess the bootleg music you're trading really isn't available in stores, so it must be ok," and he throws out the case, it's become too expensive.

That's pretty much what I've trying to say all along. Very good.

no it's ridiculous . By this logic nobody would use the internet to make websites or blogs on any topic , "just in case" they type something that might get them sued.

[Marian Schedenig 11,694]

Can you really not accept that it's the choice of the *owner* (admin or moderator) of a website to take that risk, regardless of how serious it is? You're free to blog about rare Williams bootlegs all day long. I'd read it, too. But you can't expect Ricard, Andreas, Marc or Neil to bear that responsibility if they don't want to. For all we know, they could easily have received complaints from labels. And in that case, even if they're not worried about legal action from the labels, I'd still not like to piss the labels off if I were them.

[Trent B 354]

Can you really not accept that it's the choice of the *owner* (admin or moderator) of a website to take that risk, regardless of how serious it is?

This is KM we're talking about...he'll continue to bitch about the new policy all the time.

For all we know, they could easily have received complaints from labels.

You're 100% correct about that.

[Wojo 2,458]

Let's all pitch in together and buy KM some cheese........

[Ollie 1,375]

I'd also like to say that some delusional minds think that just because I support the new rule I'm not true John Williams fans.

I can assure you that's complete bullshit.

However, I'm one of those who feel it's the label's responsibility to provide the music. I shouldn't have to rip music from DVD or video games in order to enjoy a score.

[Wojo 2,458]

True, but ripping music from DVD or video games is one thing. Anybody with sufficient skill and motivation can do that. It's not the end of the world if Label A produces a CD that skips music that you can get cleanly from a DVD or video game.

The heart of this banning bootleg matter is the banning of giving out notices when material becomes available that is NOT producible from the DVD or video games. Recording sessions are one such avenue. Complete promo scores from movies that did not get the lavish video game treatment is another.

There are tons and tons of SW games that lend themselves to using unreleased score material, but not as many Indy games, and no ID4 or Star Trek games to speak of, because I can't think of very many Star Trek games that actually use movie music because of licensing disputes. A Final Unity used the TNG theme music, that might have been it, and that was 15 years ago.

It comes down to people thinking they're going to miss something. That the "haves" are going to get unreleased bootlegs and sit on them, leaving the "have-nots" wondering why nobody likes them.

[Luke Skywalker 2,383]

For all we know, they could easily have received complaints from labels.

You're 100% correct about that.

Yeah, that would make a good point.

But then, i dont think it's 'TOP SECRET' information so that the administrators cannot tell us about it.

They have told us on the past. I think Lucasfilm asked to remove something once.

[BTR1701 60]

For all we know, they could easily have received complaints from labels. And in that case, even if they're not worried about legal action from the labels, I'd still not like to piss the labels off if I were them.

I wouldn't want to piss them off, but I also wouldn't be their whipping boy and lie down to every demand they made of me, either. People should be free to discuss whatever they want without some corporation attempting to shut them down.

[Wojo 2,458]

I'm sorry, BTR1701, but who are you again?

[chinaismine 64]

Can you really not accept that it's the choice of the *owner* (admin or moderator) of a website to take that risk, regardless of how serious it is? You're free to blog about rare Williams bootlegs all day long. I'd read it, too. But you can't expect Ricard, Andreas, Marc or Neil to bear that responsibility if they don't want to. For all we know, they could easily have received complaints from labels. And in that case, even if they're not worried about legal action from the labels, I'd still not like to piss the labels off if I were them.

The risk of what?? Again, there is nothing illegal about simply discussing bootlegs, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that openly linking to illegal material should be allowed.

[Quintus 6,495]

I'm sorry, BTR1701, but who are you again?

Now now, less of clique that shit!

BTR has just as much right to voice his opinion as the rest of us. As does Josh.

[Jabatus 0]

Guns are forbidden in some countries in Europe.. is it ilegal talking about different models of guns or machine guns?

Hey, tell ya what I'm gonna do. I found this awesome website where you type in a code and you can download a machine gun. Free of charge. Sssh, don't tell anyone, it's a secret. I won't give you the website where you can download free ammo, though.

They ban metal cutlery and pocketknives on airplanes and in schools because they can be used as weapons, so they give you plastic. Yet they haven't banned fists yet. The human hand is the most elegant and easily concealable weapon ever designed by man or nature, yet it continues to go unregulated. Sure, ban guns. Ban knives. Ban nunchuks. Ban pencils. But Cain killed Abel with his bare hands. How safe do you really feel?

I was sleeping 50 metres far away from one of the trains that exploded in Madrid March 11th 2004...

I know you cannot download guns.. but.. can we talk about them? can't we talk about Concorde's 2CD set from Hook? I find it at least curious.