Michael Giacchino's Jupiter Ascending (2015)

[Miz 139]

Good idea, I'll do that from now on.

It's also the action music, though. Too many tracks are limited to rhythmic percussion and slicing strings with little real weight or momentum, for me, with the possible exception of Helluva Chase (the only recurring track title of his to annoy me). With the rich colour or at least driving weight of Mission Impossibles, John Carter, of course classic MoH and SWON, even Lost, I must assume this is a stylistic choice to suit the film's setting and feel, rather than a composer's stylistic direction. I hope.

[Jim Ware 526]

Jupiter Ascending is a lot coming at you to take in all at once, and doesn't really end. It just stops. Perhaps the symphony should have ended the presentation rather than start it.

Think of the symphony as an overture. I don't understand the comments about the lack of an ending - Commitment is a pretty big one!

[Jay 37,287]

I dunno, it hasn't clicked for me yet.

[KK 3,307]

Commitment was a good ending. The bonus crap that follows it really shouldn't be there.

And the "symphony" movements are a good opening too, though I'm not really sold on them.

[crocodile 7,984]

Well they set the tone and ideas in their most obvious form. So that Giacchino can play around with them later. And he does quite a lot with this material, possibly more than he did with his John Carter themes (which I love, too). In some ways, this is a much more sophisticated score.

I've heard the score so many times over the past few weeks.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Surely not!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

I agree. I've been warming up to this score lately, and it speaks more to me. There's a sense of maturity here that wasn't necessarily there with John Carter.

Having said that, the symphonic movements often veer more towards the banal side than not, which is why I remain unconvinced by them.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Gia is too much a film composer to really "get away" with doing a symphony.

[crocodile 7,984]

I also think this is the least interesting stuff on this album. Although, it's "simplicity" helps a lot in getting to know main themes.

The best example here would be the theme from 2nd movememt. The statements within the score are much more elusive than that straightforward introduction.

Karol

[KK 3,307]

Perhaps. But that shouldn't be a necessity. John Carter's themes reach out to you without the need of that device.

If we are to assume those are independent compositions Giacchino wrote away from film, one might expect them to be done with more craft, especially with that kind of freedom. I'd point to Williams and his suites, but I feel like that comparison might start another flame war of some kind.

[crocodile 7,984]

I agree, to some extent. But then, he wrote A Wedding Darker also before the film (I'm guessing) and there is no such problem with this one.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If Gia wrote those before the film was shot he might have kept them fairly generic and non specific on purpose. With the actual filmscore intended to further add color and texture

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

I'd point to Williams and his suites, but I feel like that comparison might start another flame war of some kind.

How about Zimmer's then?

Giacchino away from picture is a strange thing. Some of the STID stuff is structured well, the "symphony" here is a mixed bag as far as it being a compelling listen or not, and his piece for the Gloria Cheng album is quite a hodgepodge of individually inoffensive ideas (though most of them are drawn from his or others' (Gershwin, Herrmann, etc.) work).

I suppose it's easy to expect "more" from him because of the familiar symphonic sound, but the interesting thing is he might be one of the first big name film composers in that vein who was trained first and foremost as a *film* composer, a *film* maker, and not in general as a composer who then moved into writing for media. This does seem to hold him back a bit when it comes to freely structured, long-form pieces. It's only recently that you have people aiming specifically to be film composers, studying that specifically. Honestly I'm not sure that the existence of a "film composition" educational system is a good thing.

[crocodile 7,984]

In nutshell, he wrote temp track for his own film based on vague descriptions of some elements. Whatever fit with the finushed film, remained in it. Whatever didn't, he rescored.

It actually isn't "butchered" as such. But album tells a slightly different story.

Karol

[KK 3,307]

Agreed. Perhaps that's why Giacchino success more as a film composer, because of the way he manipulates existing material to support situational circumstances. Which is how I assume "A Wedding Darker" was written.

But when writing independent pieces, he seems to struggle. Just the way the second movement saunters with that melody in its opening shows that this kind of writing isn't really his forte. The same goes for the first 2 minutes of Commitment. He's better at writing to picture. There are some cues that literally play out like little chaconnes that wear out their welcome, with the same motif/melody played out ad nauseum. Which is why I don't think Giacchino would do well in the concert hall. I wonder if his piece for Gloria reflects that too.

I'd point to Williams and his suites, but I feel like that comparison might start another flame war of some kind.

How about Zimmer's then?

Giacchino away from picture is a strange thing. Some of the STID stuff is structured well, the "symphony" here is a mixed bag as far as it being a compelling listen or not, and his piece for the Gloria Cheng album is quite a hodgepodge of individually inoffensive ideas (though most of them are drawn from his or others' (Gershwin, Herrmann, etc.) work).

I suppose it's easy to expect "more" from him because of the familiar symphonic sound, but the interesting thing is he might be one of the first big name film composers in that vein who was trained first and foremost as a *film* composer, a *film* maker, and not in general as a composer who then moved into writing for media. This does seem to hold him back a bit when it comes to freely structured, long-form pieces. It's only recently that you have people aiming specifically to be film composers, studying that specifically. Honestly I'm not sure that the existence of a "film composition" educational system is a good thing.

Well there ya go, you pretty much summed up my thoughts as well.

And Zimmer's suites succeed better because he plays around more with sound and atmosphere, which is not one of Giacchino's assets either, him being someone more rooted in a traditional symphonic sound.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That might explain why Ive always found Gia a bit generic. He lacks certain abilities as a composer.

[crocodile 7,984]

A Wedding Darker couldn't have been written to picture, KK. Because it doesn't really fit anywhere in the film and isn't used at all. Hellava Chase (first part) and finale of Commitment (or variation on it) take its place (along with some other material). The scene as filmed and edited doesn't even remotely feel like this piece. Same with The Titus Clipper (which only a snippet of is used).

Karol

[Jay 37,287]

Well, we have no idea how much footage was deleted between the cut Giacchino scored and the final theatrical cut, right?

[KK 3,307]

That's besides the point Karol. Giacchino was given cues and descriptions of what the scene is like in that instance, and he wrote that piece with a certain scenario in mind.

The first four tracks were the most detached from picture, relying solely on thematic material. And there's a clear difference between the two in structure and composition.

Titus Clipper suffers from the same thing. Starts off as a really nice Barry tribute, but begins to wear out its welcome once you realize that he's literally stating the same melody again and again about 20 times (at least he switched it to the minor key).

It's why John Carter sounds more focused than Jupiter Ascending. Though I personally prefer the latter.

[crocodile 7,984]

Even if, you don't change the scene from eerie and mysterious to action sequence just like that. I bet my money this was written and recorded way before. And the long chase cue too, for that matter.

The Shadow Chase and many shorter pieces on the album were definitely later sessions.

KK, judging from the interview, those descriptons were more vague. The Titus Clipper or The Abrasax Family Tree are repetitive because they're essentially suites with different variations on the same material to be used at will by filmmakers.

Karol

[KK 3,307]

KK, judging from the interview, those descriptons were more vague. The Titus Clipper or The Abrasax Family Tree are repetitive because they're essentially suites with different variations on the same material to be used at will by filmmakers.

Karol

And maybe that's why this process doesn't necessarily work.

[crocodile 7,984]

But it does. The score as heard in film has strong foundations, is mixed and used well. And supports the narrative. Even more so than average modern score because the sound of this score is dictated by this music, rather than temp track from hundreds other composers.

Not sure I understand what you mean. Do I get something wrong here? Is it because things went unused? It's to be expected.

Karol

[KK 3,307]

I haven't seen the film. I think you're missing my point.

I'm referring to the composition itself. If a composer has to write a piece by just compiling variations of a certain idea so it can be used flexibly in film, the composition itself is being hindered and ultimately sounds uninteresting apart from the film. It's like you're just creating musical wallpaper for the film. It might be more interesting than your average score, but it's still wallpaper.

But it also depends on the composer and their style. Just not sure this method is best for Giacchino, whom I believe is a composer who works best scoring to picture.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

It's a pretty generic bad-guy idea anyway. It sounds much more interesting when you have the deep male choral accompaniment, and vibraphones with running motors.

Also the bonus cue at the end "Flying Dinosaur Fight with Guts" takes a lot after Kronos Wartet as well.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,287]

Hmmm, that's not what I was thinking of, but I see the resemblance.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

By the way, LeBlanc, I finally found what theme the Abrasax theme reminds me of (which is probably not the same thing you were thinking about)

It's the Klingons' theme from Star Trek Into Darkness. The way the themes are used in The Shadow Chase (for the Abrasax Family theme) and Kronos Wartet (for the Klingons' theme) is somehow similar, and that's why I think I made a connection between the two in my mind.

Listen to 00'32 here:

And then 00'17 here:

It's not verbatim stuff, but there are a few similarities in the action writing.

It's more in the orchestration and rhythms, but there is a similarity - the Abrasax and Klingon themes are both based around an (0134) pitch set. In other words: semitone-whole tone-semitone. Other than that, they're both in 7/8 (a very unstable meter that Goldsmith loved - gives a strong forward drive), and feature trilled atonal chords for divisi strings at the start of the the respective cues.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

Thanks for the clarification (even though I can't pretend I understood everything you said).

But it sounds convincing doesn't it? Kind of like those Latin proverbs.

[KK 3,307]

I actually find Giacchino's use of the 7/8 meter rather dull, not like Goldsmiths prime examples (though even with him, it got pretty stale by his later years).

[Kühni 485]

.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

Thanks for the clarification (even though I can't pretend I understood everything you said).

But it sounds convincing doesn't it? Kind of like those Latin proverbs.

Yes, in the end it's all that matters. Who cares if you're saying bullshit, as long people believe in what you're saying?

Now now Sharky is a no-nonsense guy who takes music very seriously. I believe he is entirely correct in his analysis.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

By the way, LeBlanc, I finally found what theme the Abrasax theme reminds me of (which is probably not the same thing you were thinking about)

It's the Klingons' theme from Star Trek Into Darkness. The way the themes are used in The Shadow Chase (for the Abrasax Family theme) and Kronos Wartet (for the Klingons' theme) is somehow similar, and that's why I think I made a connection between the two in my mind.

Listen to 00'32 here:

And then 00'17 here:

It's not verbatim stuff, but there are a few similarities in the action writing.

It's more in the orchestration and rhythms, but there is a similarity - the Abrasax and Klingon themes are both based around an (0134) pitch set. In other words: semitone-whole tone-semitone. Other than that, they're both in 7/8 (a very unstable meter that Goldsmith loved - gives a strong forward drive), and feature trilled atonal chords for divisi strings at the start of the the respective cues.

Music speak is marketing bullshit if you ask me.

"Check out our new product with patented 7/8 meter technology that gives it an unstable, strong forward drive"

No...it just means there are seven eighth notes in a bar! You god damned traveling salesman!

[Jay 37,287]

My physical copy arrived in the mail today from Amazon UK! The CD was not shrinkwrapped, and luckily I had recently read online that this is common in the UK; If I hadn't read that, I would have been annoyed and assumed something weird happened! Why is that, BTW - is it a green / environmental thing?

I noticed now that Movement 1 and Movement 2 of the Suite overlap each other - neat. You have to basically crank the volume to hear it. Movements 3 and 4 almost do as well.

I still don't get the "Flying Dinosaur Fight" thing. I mean, they are basically two different pieces of music. Why the similar names? What does "with guts" even mean?

The more I listen to this score, the more I like it. Not a fan of the pre-filming pieces being interspersed with the film cues, though. Custom playlist in the works as we speak

[Max 141]

In the film, "Flying Dinosaur Fight" is the actual fight between Caine and the winged lizard monster (I think), while "Flying Dinosaur Fight With Guts" is actually used in two different fight scenes - Caine versus the Shadows in the fertility clinic and Caine versus the bounty hunters at Stinger's house. I agree that the similar names are misleading, even if the main melody is the same.

I'm in love with this score.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Uh, i think they are one composition and its alternate. One being shorter must then be a segment of the former.

With guts, i take it means "With balls" in that the former is a classic orchestrated cue and the second is more percussion-rythm (modern) version.

Probably the directors asked for a badass version of the original cue.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,287]

But it's also less than half the length

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Max 141]

But I did notice it in the film in those scenes I described earlier. It was like go-to action music.

Chronologically, it would play right after "Scrambled Eggs" and right before "Mutiny on the Bounty Hunter."

[Jay 37,287]

But they are from his pre-filming music, not to-picture cues. I guess it's just a case of two different methods to approach a filmmaker request ("give me fighting music"), or something

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Yeah he composed the longer cue, the wachowskis like the theme, they said to composed a badass version of it to put in several places. Probably is short because it is easily loop-able?

It convoluted to explain since it was not scored to picture. Lets' say its "dinosaur fight theme", two different renditions.

[Jay 37,287]

Yea

[Max 141]

I know. I thought you were saying that one wasn't used at all, and I was just saying that both were used. I agree--I think "With Guts" was written pre-film, given how they apply it to multiple action scenes and it's not tied to a specific scene.

I'm sorry if there was any confusion.

[Jay 37,287]

The only confusion is why Giacchino chose to name the two pieces of music that way. I would have simply preferred two completely different names.