The Themes of Howard Shore's The Hobbit

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

LeBlanc sounds French. No wonder he's a surrender monkey!

[Incanus 5,713]

So are we to call him Jason The White?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That is actually a top notch linguistic joke!

[Incanus 5,713]

So clever!

[KK 3,307]

That was King Marks doing!

Blame Canada!

Oy! We Kanadians do not share KM's foolhardy motives on the matter!!

[Incanus 5,713]

Here's one that seems to have been overlooked. Moria/Khazad-dûm music (from FOTR) at 2:02-2:37 in AUJ 1-09.

The rising parallel fifths are very prominently used throughout the films for the dwarves. They show up very often but that track from AUJ is a good example of that particular dwarven musical idea. And what could be a better place than the gates of Moria to use them so prominently.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,287]

OK here's Disc 1 of BOFA!!

I'm sure I missed some things, so please post all thoughts and comments you have!

BOFA 1-01 Fire And Water

0:12-1:04 Dragon Sickness

0:24-0:33 Smaug A/B

0:54-1:02 Smaug A/B

1:04-1:19 Smaug B

1:23-1:29 The Politicians of Lake-town

1:47-1:51 Ascending phrase from My Armor Is Iron

1:51-1:53- Smaug A

1:53-2:00 Girion

2:00-2:17 Dragon Sickness

2:00-2:24 Smaug B

2:24-2:29 Smaug A

2:40-2:51 Smaug B

2:51-3:08 Smaug A

3:08-3:23 Girion

3:23-3:35 Bard

3:35-3:50 Bard’s Family

3:50-3:55 Smaug B

4:05-4:13 Smaug A

4:05-4:13 Smaug B

4:45-5:00 Smaug B

5:00-5:05 Smaug A

5:05-5:22 Smaug B

5:52-5:40 Dragon Sickness

5:22-5:40 Smaug A

5:40-5:58 Erebor

BOFA 1-02 Shores Of The Long Lake

0:00-0:56 Tauriel and Kili (Intro)

1:47-2:05 Tauriel and Kili

2:05-2:37 Bard The Leader

2:46-2:58 Descending Theme from DOS

2:58-3:26 The Politicians of Lake-town

3:21-3:26 Smaug A (First 2 notes)

3:37-4:01 Bard The Leader

BOFA 1-03 Beyond Sorrow And Grief

0:05-0:20 House of Durin

0:23-0:32 Erebor

0:52-0:58 Descending Theme from DOS

1:05-1:53 Dragon Sickness

1:07-1:35 Smaug A/B

2:01-2:18 Dragon Sickness

2:27-2:45 Dragon Sickness

2:34-2:46 Smaug A (first 2 notes)

2:59-4:12 Dragon Sickness

BOFA 1-04 Guardians Of The Three

0:28-0:40 Lothlorien

0:54-1:04 The Necromancer

1:04-1:43 Lothlorien

1:32-1:43 The Necromancer

1:46-1:52 Sauron (fragmented)

1:52-2:13 Gandalf (fragmented)

2:34-2:56 Sauron

2:34-2:56 Descending Thirds (Necromancer Variation)

2:57-3:19 The Fall Of Man

3:19-3:26 Descending Thirds

3:26-3:37 Rivendell

4:15-4:24 Gandalf

4:29-5:07 The Power of Galadriel

5:11-5:26 The Necromancer

BOFA 1-05 The Ruins Of Dale

0:00-0:18 Lake-town

0:18-0:33 Lake-town/Bard

0:40-1:02 Erebor (Martial variant)

1:45-2:13 The Shire

2:22-2:52 Preparing For War

3:24-3:39 Gandalf

BOFA 1-06 The Gathering Of The Clouds

0:09-0:47 The Woodland Realm

0:47-1:03 Thranduil

1:07-1:16 Bard’s Family

1:16-1:36 Lake-town

1:43-2:03 Mirkwood (White Gems variation)

2:29-2:39 Thranduil

3:39-3:58 Erebor

4:58-5:13 House of Durin

5:25-5:42 House of Durin

5:42-5:52 Thorin

BOFA 1-07 Mithril

0:00-0:14 Mithril

0:47-2:01 Dragon Sickness

0:47-1:17 Smaug B

1:17-2:01 Smaug A

1:53-2:01 Thorin

2:09-2:18 House of Durin

2:18-2:29 Lake-town

2:29-2:50 House of Durin

2:50-2:59 Preparing For War

BOFA 1-08 Bred For War

0:00-0:11 Gundabad Rhythm

0:00-0:11 Gundabad March

0:17-0:34 Gundabad Rhythm

0:23-0:38 Gundabad March

0:38-0:44 The Woodland Realm

0:44-0:52 Descending Theme from DOS

0:56-1:14 Descending Thirds (Azog Variation)

1:18-1:40 House of Durin

1:47-2:01 Gundabad Rhythm

1:51-2:01 Gundabad March

2:33-2:56 Gundabad March

3:00-3:01 Tauriel

BOFA 1-09 A Thief In The Night

0:32-0:38 The Woodland Realm

0:40-1:16 Bilbo’s Sneaky Theme

1:26-1:49 The Arkenstone

2:08-2:30 House of Durin

3:20-3:45 The Woodland Realm

4:02-4:14 The Woodland Realm

BOFA 1-10 The Clouds Burst

0:20-0:50 Dragon Sickness

1:00-1:23 Smaug B

1:56-2:33 Footsteps of Doom

2:05-2:33 Thorin

2:47-3:29 Dain

3:36-3:52 The Woodland Realm

3:58-4:13 Erebor

BOFA 1-11 Battle For The Mountain

0:14-0:25 Erebor

0:25-0:45 Dain

0:49-0:55 Descending Thirds

1:01-2:08 Dain

2:24-2:32 Descending Thirds

3:08-3:21 Bard’s Family

3:56-4:12 Bard’s Family

4:24-4:28 Bard

4:28-4:40 House of Durin

[Faleel 5,340]

BOFA 1-02 Shores Of The Long Lake

2:46-2:58 Descending Theme from DOS

BOFA 1-03 Beyond Sorrow And Grief

0:52-0:58 Descending Theme from DOS

BOFA 1-08 Bred For War

0:44-0:52 Descending Theme from DOS

The last one was originally part of the Erebor theme (don't know why Shore used it here), So I assume the one in Beyond Sorrow and Grief is a variation of that, I think the one in Shores of the Long Lake is part of Bard's family theme (see GK's mockup of the Piano Book)

Also compare these (a "Erebor in Ascension" type thing perhaps?):

Durin's Folk 2:29 - 2:30

The Courage of Hobbits 1:36 - 1:40

To the Death 2:07 - 2:10, 2:10 - 2:13

[crocodile 7,984]

Am I the only person to miss so-called B section of Tauriel/Kili theme in The Battle of the Five Armies? I always thought it was the better section.

Karol

[Faleel 5,340]

Am I the only person to miss so-called B section of Tauriel/Kili theme in The Battle of the Five Armies? I always thought it was the better section.

Karol

KK says its the A section.

I would assume its not used because what it represents does not return in the BOTFA TE.

[Jay 37,287]

What do you think it represents?

[crocodile 7,984]

Maybe it's simply because it's the more innocent line of the two? And it doesn't fit in the war thriller sort of setting of this film?

One more thing. I was just looking through your breakdown, Jason. And in track The Hunters in DOS you label one theme at 1:01 as Erebor (New Variation). Is it not Black Arrow theme? It does appear when Bard reveals it in his house and then again in the third film (is it not when his son delivers the arrow to him)?

Apologise if that has been mentioned before. As you know, it's often hard to keep track of all the discussion, especially if you just read it every now and then.

Karol

[KK 3,307]

Am I the only person to miss so-called B section of Tauriel/Kili theme in The Battle of the Five Armies? I always thought it was the better section.

Karol

I might be this section's most avid fan, and the most active mourner of it's loss here.

I don't think it represents anything unique in itself. In DoS, it acted as a bookend for the main phrase of the love theme (and was still sadly underused). In BotFA, Shore uses the inferior (but still nice) opening section of Feast of Starlight to do the same job:

[crocodile 7,984]

The opening of Beyond the Forest is one of the best moments in the entire trilogy. With that lovely adult female soprano (that sounds like a boy soprano).

Karol

[Faleel 5,340]

What do you think it represents?

I don't know, perhaps a theme for Tauriel and Kili having a quiet connecting moment (their conversation in the detention block) or something.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,340]

OK, here's what I think you may have missed, LeBlanc:

Guardians of The Three: (Note: I'm using the standard version timestamps here)

-Throughout the track, Shore seems to introduce a new thematic idea here: a two note thingy that showsup in many places (maybe for the White Council?): 00:00-00:11, 02:13-02:25.

- 02:56-03:19 has the Rivendell arpeggios playing as a counterpoint to the Fall Of Man motif.

- 03:38-03:58 has the Fall Of Man Motif.

- 04:01-04:11 seems to feature a theme, but I can't tell which one it is.

Mithril:

- There's a Hobbity melody at 00:16-00:29. Anyone can identify which one it is?

#1 That is Sauron Revealed, you can hear it in ROTK in A Coronal of Silver and Gold, and in DOS in A Spell of Concealment.

#2 I think that is a fragmented Gandalf's theme and Rivendell arpeggios, not Fall of Men.

#3 I think that is Gandalf

#5 That is Thorin theme!

The Gathering Of The Clouds:

- 01:07-01:15: I don't think that's Bard's Family theme, just a melody that happens to sound similar to it, because there's no reason for that theme to show up in that scene.

He no longer has to worry about his family being fed...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

#1 That is Sauron Revealed, you can hear it in ROTK in A Coronal of Silver and Gold, and in DOS in A Spell of Concealment.

Ah, OK.

#2 I think that is a fragmented Gandalf's theme and Rivendell arpeggios, not Fall of Men.

I'll have to trust you on that. The Fall Of Men is one of those motifs I always have a hard time remembering. Whenever I try to hum it, it escapes from my grasp!

#3 I think that is Gandalf

Which one? 03:38-03:58 or 04:01-04:11? Or both?

#5 That is Thorin theme!

Oh, nice catch! That's the warmest rendition the theme ever got! I like it.

[Faleel 5,340]

3:38-3:58.

It could be the Fall of Men I guess, but it also reminds me of the opening notes of Gandalf's theme

[KK 3,307]

3:38 = Gandalf

That's definitely Gandalf. It's been brought up in the discussion several times, and I think it's even mentioned in the liner notes.

4:01 = continuing descending line, not really thematic

[Jay 37,287]

Wow, thats a lot of info for me to parse through!

Damn, I didn't even remember that "Sauron Revealed" existed. That's in Doug's book?

[Faleel 5,340]

!@#$%^&*, I didn't even remember that "Sauron Revealed" existed.

It didn't exist until DOS

[Jay 37,287]

Ah ok, you're saying he referenced a passage from ROTK in the DOS score, and you named it "Sauron Revealed" yourself, right?

[Faleel 5,340]

Ah ok, you're saying he referenced a passage from ROTK in the DOS score, and you named it "Sauron Revealed" yourself, right?

Well, I borrowed it from GK.

[crocodile 7,984]

How many themes does Bard have? Four?

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Yup!

1) Bard's Theme

2) Girion's Theme

3) Bard's Family

4) Bard the Leader

[Faleel 5,340]

Five!:

Bard the Grim.

Bard the Leader

Bard and Family

Girion/Bard

Laketown/Bard (Yes there is a difference)

[crocodile 7,984]

I always thought that what you refer to as Girion's theme is essentially a Black Arrow theme.

EDIT: BB agrees! I'm awesome.

Karol

[Jay 37,287]

There's also Lake-town/Bard

[crocodile 7,984]

Oh dear, Shore must like him.

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

The Gathering Of The Clouds:

- 01:07-01:15: I don't think that's Bard's Family theme, just a melody that happens to sound similar to it, because there's no reason for that theme to show up in that scene.

He no longer has to worry about his family being fed...

That's a stretch.

4:01 = continuing descending line, not really thematic

You're a theme hater, so I'm not gonna trust you on that! I definitely hear a familiar melody under the percussions...

[Jay 37,287]

I always thought that what you refer to as Girion's theme is essentially a Black Arrow theme.

Shore named it Girion's Theme, though.

[KK 3,307]

I always thought that what you refer to as Girion's theme is essentially a Black Arrow theme.

EDIT: BB agrees! I'm awesome.

Karol

Well yes, it's basically used for the black arrow. But it's officially labelled for Girion, or so the liner notes tells us.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

There's also Lake-town/Bard

I'm not quite convinced this is a theme on its own. Or I suppose if you count any hybrid variations with the Laketown and Bard together.

[crocodile 7,984]

I get it now.

Bard's Family theme is what I call "You didn't let me use my Bilbo theme so I invented a similar theme for something else. It'll be in the film, whether you like it or not, suckers!" theme.

Karol

[Jay 37,287]

There's also Lake-town/Bard

I'm not quite convinced this is a theme on its own. Or I suppose if you count any hybrid variations with the Laketown and Bard together.

It's Shore's name, not mine!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I get it now.

Bard's Family theme is what I call "You didn't let me use my Bilbo theme so I invented a similar theme for something else. It'll be in the film, whether you like it or not, suckers!" theme.

That's basically it in a nutshell.

[Jay 37,287]

I still don't think Bard's Family theme sounds as close to Bilbo's theme as you all do.

[Faleel 5,340]

Moved.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I still don't think Bard's Family theme sounds as close to Bilbo's theme as you all do.

I can differentiate the two, but you've got to admit they do sound similar.

[Jay 37,287]

What's a good name for the Azog/Thorin "An Ancient Enemy" music that's reprised in "Ravenhill"?

An Ancient Enemy?

Ancient Enemies?

Thorin/Azog?

Azog/Thorin?

[Faleel 5,340]

It sounds more like the B section (Took section?) more than the A section.

[crocodile 7,984]

I still don't think Bard's Family theme sounds as close to Bilbo's theme as you all do.

It's sort of like Mirkwood/Smaug.

Themes are not the same but you could see some similarities. To be honest, when I heard Bard's family theme in one battle pieces, I thought they brought Bilbo's theme back,

Shore needs some new notes to work with.

Karol

[Faleel 5,340]

What's a good name for the Azog/Thorin "An Ancient Enemy" music that's reprised in "Ravenhill"?

An Ancient Enemy?

Ancient Enemies?

Thorin/Azog?

Azog/Thorin?

A War of Vengeance?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

They're not exactly the same, but very similar indeed.

The thing about the Mirkwood music is that the motif isn't event central component to it. The music has always been one combined of different motivic cells and textural elements.

[Faleel 5,340]

Moved.