Let's talk about Empire's rejected music

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

So I'm currently listening to the Star Wars Trilogy Original Soundtrack Anthology for the fourth time this week, and it is, of course, glorious. Now, as we all know, Williams composed, in fact, recorded a significant amount of music that was ultimately rejected by the filmmakers. Notably, there are probably like 10 minutes of unused music from the Hoth scenes, Yoda Appears, Training of a Jedi Knight, the Lightsaber duel, and so on. All of it is magnificent, but I honestly feel they made the right decisions in excising/replacing those portions in the film. For instance, Luke's Rescue original version Vs. tracked Hyperspace version = much cooler in the film. Despite it being one of my favorite Williams compositions, I don't think Training of a Jedi Knight could have worked in any version of the film. How do we feel about this?

[Balahkay 627]

I love the unused Hoth music. I remember when I first discovered some of it while playing Dark Forces II on PC. For the most, I agree with how the the music was utilized in the original version of the film, except when the gang is trying to save Han from Boba Fett (Departure of Boba Fett). I'm not sure why they cut up the music so much and had it end before the scene was over. However, supposedly the 70MM version of film had the full cue and the 35MM had the edited cue. I'm glad they included the full cue in SE, one of the few changes I supported. While I like Training of a Jedi Knight, I don't think it would have worked, either. It seemed "out of place," but maybe that's because I'm so used to what I've heard in the film over the years. I also think they could have included the unused portion of "Carbon Freeze" when they pull Carbonite Han up out of the hole.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Indeed, if the film had originally featured this music, would any such discussion ever exist?

Basically, the sound mix used since 1997 has these major differences: numerous alternate (and weaker) dialogue takes, and Williams' original intended music for a couple scenes. It raises the question of why the 70mm sound mix had more Williams original intended music.

Isn't the extra music from the Carbon Freeze scene an insert? So Williams even had inserts/revisions rejected?

[Datameister 2,042]

I love all the unused music from ESB, but I too agree with most of the decisions to remove it from the film. A big part of this is simply because there would have been too much music - a film score starts to become less effective when it's constantly playing beneath the whole film. I also think that some of the unused music is somehow a little too "extreme." The wailing and snarling dissonances for the probe droid, the cutesy Yoda music on Dagobah, the triumphant statement of his theme while Luke hacks away at Vader in the fog...moments like these are just a little too melodramatic with the music restored. Without music, these scenes feel a little more serious, a little more natural. The film is better for it, even though the missing music is delightful to listen to on its own.

[Balahkay 627]

Indeed, if the film had originally featured this music, would any such discussion ever exist?

Basically, the sound mix used since 1997 has these major differences: numerous alternate (and weaker) dialogue takes, and Williams' original intended music for a couple scenes. It raises the question of why the 70mm sound mix had more Williams original intended music.

Isn't the extra music from the Carbon Freeze scene an insert? So Williams even had inserts/revisions rejected?

I believe the SE album contains the insert but the Anthology set contains the intended version. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in. In the film, there is about 14 seconds of silence before the music starts again, which is about the same length as the unused portion of the Anthology "Carbon Freeze." I'm guessing they dialed the music out at that point because of the sound effects? However, the insert on the SE is much longer than 14 seconds that so I'm wondering if they didn't remove portions of the scene some time after Williams had done the insert. The insert on the SE is about 43 seconds.

Edit: I was wrong about the insert... according the SE linear notes, after a powerful rendition of Vader's theme, it is followed by "atonal strings, piccolo, and horn in a short passage written for the raising of the carbonite block, which was later re-scored with the dramatic rendition of the love theme that follows it." So, it appears the SE contains the original version and the Anthology contains the re-scored version.

[Jay 37,351]

Right. It's the love theme part that was the later insert, replacing the original more dissonant version he originally intended.

[King Mark 3,631]

The film is already scored wall to wall, so if they added the 10 minutes of unused material it would be even better probably.

and I prefer the unused snowspeeder chase music to the tracked hyperspace

[Jay 37,351]

The film is already scored wall to wall

No, it definitely isn't. Have you not seen the movie in a while?

[King Mark 3,631]

Actually not in about 10 years. I should see it again

[Jay 37,351]

I prefer the unused snowspeeder chase music to the tracked hyperspace

Me too

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Hyperspace fits the tone of the scene better, or at least, it makes it a lot cooler than with the rejected Luke's Rescue. Also, the way they synchronized it with those awesome Snowspeeder dashboard shots going over the mountains is just great.

[Balahkay 627]

From what I've read, the SE version of the film is about 129 minutes and features about 99 minutes of music.

Hyperspace fits the tone of the scene better, or at least, it makes it a lot cooler than with the rejected Luke's Rescue. Also, the way they synchronized it with those awesome Snowspeeder dashboard shots going over the mountains is just great.

I agree. I'm not the biggest fan of tracked music (especially from other films) but they really did a good job with utilizing the music. It gave the scene some intensity that I think may have lacked if the rejected version was used.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Bullshit, using Hyperspace was just lazy and inappropriate!

[crocodile 8,002]

Well, I strongly feel there is generally too much music in films and it's robbing them of any dramatic impact. Sure, it's fun to trace all the thematic development and storyline just by listening to score on CD but that sort of approach rarely improves films.

I used to think differently, as film music fans tend to, but changed my mind after hearing The Return of the King live to projection. Lot of fun music re-insterted back but the film itself becomes too crowded musically which ultimately has little emotional reaction to crucial moments. Now, treating it like they did in The Hobbit doesn't help either. But that's another subject altogether. Sorry for smuggling Tolkien into the discussion but that was the best example I know.

Empire is fine as it is. It would have been interesting to hear this music in context... as an extra feature. But, other than that, there is no need for it.

Karol

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

When I first got Empire on DVD in 2004, I did a match up with the RCA set. The results were pretty cool, although the movie was the SE and at PAL speed, so it wasn't a pitch perfect process.

I'd love to do it again now that I have the original theatrical version in NTSC and see if it matches up better.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes! We must restore the film to Johns original intentions!

[ymenard 54]

I kinda wish Lucas would have told him to rescore that portion instead of tracking music. Guess there wasn't enough time or money to do so. Adapting the Hyperspace into a more cohesive variation of the original track would have been really beautiful.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The original track is great!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Love the idiotic use of the word rejected in the thread title.

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

and I prefer the unused snowspeeder chase music to the tracked hyperspace

Yes. Hyperspace works well in the scene, but once you know the film/score and connect the hyperspace music to the finale, it doesn't fit.

Also, while the concert version of the Imperial March works perfectly for the shot of the Imperial fleet, I wonder how it would work with the original Aboard the Executor. Musically, it's probably my favourite rendition of the theme.

[Jay 37,351]

I think it's mine too

[Balahkay 627]

When I first got Empire on DVD in 2004, I did a match up with the RCA set. The results were pretty cool, although the movie was the SE and at PAL speed, so it wasn't a pitch perfect process.

I'd love to do it again now that I have the original theatrical version in NTSC and see if it matches up better.

I believe it's been done. Look up Dark_Jedi's Theatrical DVDs and/or Harmy's Despecialized Editions.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Harmy's version doesn't restore music that was never used in the film. Not the version i have anyway

[Jay 37,351]

There's more than one audio track for you to pick from.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ah yes, I forgot. Thanks.

But the Harmy cut is not attainable for Drax, because government bans on broadband!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I've never downloaded a movie simply because the bandwidth restrictions here are ridiculous.

I simply like to have fun playing the DVD and the CD from different players at the same time and stopping and pausing when need be.

[Balahkay 627]

Dark_Jedi's isolated score track includes the unused music... at least for ESB and ROTJ... I haven't checked SW, but I'm sure it's the same.

Edit: I checked out Harmy's latest despecialized version for SW and it includes unused music.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I simply like to have fun playing the DVD and the CD from different players at the same time and stopping and pausing when need be.

What app do you use for that?

[Wojo 2,453]

I think it's called holding a remote control in each hand.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Is that on the IOS app store?

[Wojo 2,453]

Paul, Corinthians. Thanks.

[Trent B 337]

The areas where they did drop the music was appropriate. I also agree that I'm glad for "Chewie Chokes Lando" they restored the music at the end of that cue. The way how it cut off in the theatrical edition was just way to damn jarring.

I'm a bit torn on the "Luke's Rescue" bit...the way how they tracked the music in the film from Hyperspace did work but the original is cool to hear.

I do feel though that some scenes could have benefited some of the unused music.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I think it's called holding a remote control in each hand.

Bingo.

[skyy38 21]

and I prefer the unused snowspeeder chase music to the tracked hyperspace

Yes. Hyperspace works well in the scene, but once you know the film/score and connect the hyperspace music to the finale, it doesn't fit.

Also, while the concert version of the Imperial March works perfectly for the shot of the Imperial fleet, I wonder how it would work with the original Aboard the Executor. Musically, it's probably my favourite rendition of the theme.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the "Hyperspace" cue gets it's first reading when the Snow Speeders are launched in a search for Luke and Han, right?

In other words , I think you have the order of things reversed....

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes Hyperspace was first used for the Snow Spoeder search, but was never composed for that scene.

I agree with Marian that it works well enough, but watching the film now, it really doesn't belong there.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[1977 1,743]

Among the music restored for the '97 SE, I was particularly pleased they restored the original scored music for the shot where Captain Needa's shuttle approaches Vader's ship. I always much preferred it to the tracked Imperial March music used in the old theatrical cut.

[Jay 37,351]

[Tallguy 3,385]

Regarding Hyperspace, it would be interesting to know more about the process back in 1980 that led to an originally scored scene being re-tracked with a rather lengthy and unique piece from later in the film. Did Kersh or Lucas (or Williams?) not think the original track worked? It's hard to be objective at this late date. I have a hard time taking seriously the argument that Hyperspace doesn't work here. And it isn't like Star Wars does not have any thematic reprises. Hyperspace has more of an urgency to it. The original Luke's Rescue has an almost laid back feel to it.

I've never enjoyed the original Aboard the Executor. For what would be the first full statement of the Imperial March I prefer the more direct approach of the tracked music. The muted horns (if I have the term correct) never worked for me.

The music that was dialed out for the Hoth base when Han arrives at the Falcon is some of my favorite in the trilogy. I'm still glad it's gone in the film.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I have a hard time taking seriously the argument that Hyperspace doesn't work here.

You mean Snowspeeders Take Flight?

Hyperspace was the cue that replaced it in the scene where the rescue party are looking for Han and Luke.

[Jay 37,351]

No, he typed correctly. Read his post again.

[Tallguy 3,385]

I have a hard time taking seriously the argument that Hyperspace doesn't work here.

You mean Snowspeeders Take Flight?

Hyperspace was the cue that replaced it in the scene where the rescue party are looking for Han and Luke.

Nope, I mean Hyperspace as used in the scene with the snowspeeders. I think it works marvelously.

No, he typed correctly. Read his post again.

Just so. Thanks.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree that the music works fine. But I wonder why the original was rejected?

[Jay 37,351]

Possibly it was too upbeat? Using Hypserspace there instead makes it more urgent and dramatic, I suppose

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I've never enjoyed the original Aboard the Executor. For what would be the first full statement of the Imperial March I prefer the more direct approach of the tracked music. The muted horns (if I have the term correct) never worked for me.

The Imperial March melody at 2:50 is actually played by 4 trombones. The horns and 2 tubas are on the triplet motif (Dum Dadada Dadada Dum DaDaDa Dadada Dum), until they join in with the trombones at 3:10. This would normally be played by trombones and tubas, but here the bones have been muted, playing the low chords from 2:32-44. To make the switch from muted to open, they need time, so Williams gives them a break for two measures.

What you're probably hearing are horns playing at fortissimo, cuivre. It's a technique of letting the embouchure go a bit and pushing harder, giving the sound a metallic edge.

To hear muted horns, listen to 1:40 (all 6 on metal mutes) and 3:26 (3 on wood mutes, 3 on metal mutes).

[skyy38 21]

Yes Hyperspace was first used for the Snow Spoeder search, but was never composed for that scene.

I agree with Marian that it works well enough, but watching the film now, it really doesn't belong there.

Can you please provide documentation to prove your supposition?

Especially since "Hyperspace" contains more than just the fast eighth notes of the Snow Speeder Search, such as a quote from Darth Vaders Theme and perilous strings ascending in minor (?) mode.

And also the simple fact that the Snow Speeder Search is FIRST in the movie and then Hyperspace is later.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

You doubt Cosman?

Here is the proof you seek.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes Hyperspace was first used for the Snow Spoeder search, but was never composed for that scene.

I agree with Marian that it works well enough, but watching the film now, it really doesn't belong there.

Can you please provide documentation to prove your supposition?

Especially since "Hyperspace" contains more than just the fast eighth notes of the Snow Speeder Search, such as a quote from Darth Vaders Theme and perilous strings ascending in minor (?) mode.

And also the simple fact that the Snow Speeder Search is FIRST in the movie and then Hyperspace is later.

Ummm...what?

Hyperspace was tracked in to the snow speeder rescue scene. They obviously edited the cue to make it fit that scene, removing things like Vader's theme and the ascending strings.

I don't have any documentation to back this up. Apart from the fact that we have a proven unused cue for the snow speeder rescu.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Can you please provide documentation to prove your supposition?

2M3 Luke's Rescue, 62 bars. Orchestrated by Herb Spencer. Unused.

12M2 To Hyperspace, 139 bars. Orchestrated by Herb Spencer. Used for its intended scene and tracked into the earlier rescue sequence, where elements are looped (explaining no Vader Theme).

What more do you want?

[BloodBoal 7,538]