Harry Potter: How Should it Have Sounded?

[limonmusic 0]

Basically, yes. Total hack fraud. You'd think he'd know how to write film music after half a century in the business.

Thank God we have YouTube commentators to point out his glaring flaws.

I feel like perhaps this comment was coming now more from an emotional stand point, within the context of venting in this forum.

To say that my feelings about JW are "total hack fraud...you'd think he'd know how to write film music after half a century in the business" based on what I say in the video would be completely off.

As I mentioned in another reply to a comment, I do believe I need to do better to praise the existing soundtracks of composers that I review their music on, as the tone in my video may have made people think that I don't think highly of JW or his score.

I will reiterate what I said in the video: John Williams is a Genius, and I will love anything what he puts out there. It doesn't have to do with him as a composer, rather the direction that the producers and director took in asking for a score that denotes MAGIC above everything else, to be the main one and marketed and used in such a way so that the masses will always think of that one FIRST and foremost when they think about music in Harry Potter.

Had JW been given the direction to compose something equally as powerful and memorable, that struck closer to what I argue is the core theme of the series, that was more malleable and used in different contexts throughout, I believe that would have been very powerful.

He would have been able to compose whatever that score may have been in his sleep, given his insane talent.

Give me 50 years and maybe I would have come almost 10% as close to something as awesome

Did the subsequent composers who tried they hand at creating themes for Harry Potter succeed in creating this "ultimate theme" or is the onus only on Williams in this case?

The onus I believe was not on JW, but rather the producers and directors who knew what direction they wanted to go with the music, and JW executed that Perfectly. (give me a century, and I don't think I'd even come close to something as awesome as those individual notes on a Celeste, for Hedwig's Theme).

By the time other composers came into the scene, the main musical push and direction was already established imo. Hedwig's Theme captured Magic so perfectly, and it was marketed in all the advertisements so forcefully, that it would have been difficult if not impossible (and at that point, probably counter-productive) to create something more to what I was saying and trying to make it the main theme that the masses associate to Harry Potter instead

Williams wrote one theme for the magical aspect of the story, and one for Harry's family, his friend and co. I don't see any problem here, so I don't understand the point of this video.

I mean, the guy is like: "The theme is not really appropriate, this theme would have been better", then he plays the Family theme, which is from the same score. So, what's the problem? The theme should have been the main one? Who cares? They're both used appropriately in the film: whenever there's a scene between Harry and his friends or his family, you get the Family Portrait theme, and when there's a scene revolving about magic, you get Hedwig's theme.

This. My first thought when he talked about the 'main theme' was... is that actually the main theme? The Harry's Wondrous World melody is used more prominently I'd say, at least in film one.

I can't see how A Window to the Past is another version of Hedwig's Theme though. They have some melodic similarities here and there, but I hear nothing more than that.

I love this -- here's where we can't really argue in terms of subjective experience.

While I believe that most people, especially non-musical average movie watching people, would associate Hedwig's Theme before any other one to the Harry Potter series/or film 1, my argument probably falls apart for those that don't.

And that's a part of the beauty of music imo, how it hits so many people in so many different ways

Dangit! You learned my secret! #composercat

The next John Williams came from a highly unexpected place.

As mentioned in previous replies, I believe I did not emphasize enough how I do not feel like I even belong in the same stratosphere as JW in terms of musical talent.

While I do look forward to composing for future projects, I do not believe for one minute I would ever in my life even come close.

Repeatedly referring to Hedwig's Theme as a "song" instantly invalidates his opinion...

Ugh...someone pointed it out to me. For some reason I kept using that word, and it is very obvious what would constitute a "song" and what doesn't.

I'll correct this in the future..my mistake.

I just watched to the end of the first video. I notice he says

... or whether they should have gone in another direction with a different theme...

That's precisely what HWW is! It's another, moldable theme to represent exactly the thing you just demonstrated in the video!

Idiot!

(and yes, use of the term 'song' does not work in his favour)

I agree! (Though not to the idiot part.....although my wife may agree on that one..)

The argument I make is that HWW is the one I felt comes most closely to encapsulating what I felt was the heart of the series (how with love you can overcome all things); but had JW been given the direction from the producers and director to compose something as equally powerful and memorable as Hedwig's Theme to represent that, and had it been made in such a way so that the arrangement of the notes made them mouldable to mean a lot of different things throughout the series as the composers saw fit, it would have been very powerful. They would have needed to market that melody as the main theme in the trailers and ads,etc. as well from the get go to achieve that I think.

And in terms of using the word "song"...yeah, you got me there. I have various theories as to why i may have used that word when it obviously isn't a song, and I have been performing and composing in different capacities for many years now. I will not repeat this same mistake in future videos, but your assessment of my being an idiot is probably well served in this case. :/

[nightscape94 965]

Hedwig's Theme can't be molded into anything else?

What a fucking retard. Hedwig's Theme forms the basis for most themes John Williams wrote across the three movies.

Did he just miss this track?

That is the fucking definition of molding Hedwig's Theme into something different. That's what Window to the Past is, a remolding of Hedwig's Theme.

I listened to the track you posted the link to- while Hedwig's theme does make a small cameo at 2:17, it doesn't last longer than 10 seconds...the rest of the song is a very different tone. What I mean when I say that Hedwig's Theme can't be moulded to mean something other than Magic, I refer specifically to the melody itself, especially the last 6 notes (E-G-F#-D-F natural-B), are very difficult to modify what's going on around them, or with lower instruments to make it sound like something other than magic, or the mysteriousness of magic. So within those 10 seconds that it makes that appearance, it brought me back to the magical aspect of Harry's world.

I think you missed the point here. The actual Window to the Past theme itself is a variation of Hedwig's. Listen to the beginning of that, and the beginning of this:

That's not unintentional.

[limonmusic 0]

I responded...probably a waste of time, but I'm curious to see if he replies

Thank you again for the comment on YT! While I was enjoying many of the replies, I get super excited when someone gives a very long and thoughtful response, even if it's criticizing my point of view.

The point of my channel is to get the average movie goer to think of music and understand it in a way they never thought they could, and so many times my videos are very reductionist. So my more musician side feels a little starved sometimes for some more meaty discussion (eg. I would LOVE someone to argue how a Bdiminished cord [the basis of the last 3 notes, out of the first 14 of Hedwig's Theme] could be manipulated to mean different things if different voicings going on around them, or different instruments were tried!)

Regardless, I will still give a proper response to your reply as soon as I can, and perhaps post it here as well in case anyone is interested!

He did!

Unfortunately, his argument seems to revolve around there needing to be another theme representing 'love overcoming all things', which is an extremely individual assessment of the film.

Definitely an extremely individual assessment - interpreting music is very muddy, subjective, and open to so much interpretation. I love that.

The reason I put out this video is because enough people that I had this conversation with were intrigued with the argument, and I wanted to know what the masses thought! (Because we all know that just because the people around us in our personal lives may agree with what we say, that may not mean that what we feel is something that many more people would agree to as well!)

And so in the spirit of genuine curiosity of what people may think, whether they agree or disagree, I posted it!

Frederic Lemon is the new John Williams?

As mentioned in a previous reply, I really hope I did not evoke that I felt I was better or as good, or even nearly as good as JW in any ways!

I have to be more conscious of that in future videos where I may criticize how movie music was used.

I think John Williams is a genius, and I could never even come close to doing something like what he does with a score.

In my video, I hope I explain clearly how it is not of any lack of talent or genius on JW's part (he has more of that than most of us mere mortals), rather the direction that the producers and directors gave him on the music, which he delivered on perfectly.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

I responded...probably a waste of time, but I'm curious to see if he replies

(eg. I would LOVE someone to argue how a Bdiminished cord [the basis of the last 3 notes, out of the first 14 of Hedwig's Theme] could be manipulated to mean different things if different voicings going on around them, or different instruments were tried!)

What exactly does this mean?

[limonmusic 0]

He did!

Unfortunately, his argument seems to revolve around there needing to be another theme representing 'love overcoming all things', which is an extremely individual assessment of the film.

But there is a 'love overcoming all things ' theme - the one that plays during the Mirror of Erised scene and 'Leaving Hogwarts'. It's both memorable and breathtakingly beautiful. As are the themes in 'Buckbeak's flight' and 'A Window to the Past'. Perhaps Williams's is too good at creating memorable themes, that he can only remember the 'main song'.

Of course there are many themes that encompass different emotions perfectly! I am referring more to the "Main Theme", in the sense of (how I mention in my other replies) the masses, most people would associate Hedwig's Theme to the entire series more quickly than any other melody. This is for the average, non-musical thinking movie goer. So had JW been given the direction to compose something that encompasses "love overcoming all things" that would be as powerful and memorable as Hedwig's Theme, and it was pushed as "The" main theme from even the first trailers, and the melody was mouldable so it could be adapted to different contexts throughout the series, I feel like that would have been very powerful

This will help me write epic and emotional orchestra songs with lots of feels.

Awesome!

;p

He did!

Unfortunately, his argument seems to revolve around there needing to be another theme representing 'love overcoming all things', which is an extremely individual assessment of the film.

But there is a 'love overcoming all things ' theme - the one that plays during the Mirror of Erised scene and 'Leaving Hogwarts'. It's both memorable and breathtakingly beautiful. As are the themes in 'Buckbeak's flight' and 'A Window to the Past'. Perhaps Williams's is too good at creating memorable themes, that he can only remember the 'main song'.

True. He's fixated on the idea that because Giacchino wrote a theme that works in different contexts, that JW's 'main theme song' must do the same, while disregarding the other themes he wrote which do exactly the same function.

It's like asking why the main theme can't be given a few chord changes to become both the villain and hero themes.... because scores generally have multiple themes.

What does this guy actually write?

The question boils down to whether it would have been powerful in a unique way for a main theme, with a melody mouldable to be able to be taken in different directions and equally as powerful and memorable as Hedwig's Theme, to be used throughout the series. And if so, whether this would have been beneficial vs the present situation. Of course there are many other themes which function to evoke love, family, friends, etc. If you disagree with my main point, let me know exactly why! I am actually very interested to hear

In terms of what I actually write -- I had a busy phase a while back in terms of composing, but then a family tragedy, followed by my getting married severely postponed my proactivity in composing. In the meantime I noticed my videos were getting a lot of interest, and I decided to dedicate a few months of my free time to produce a second season And so my website, in terms of showing what I have composed, is not only not updated on that page, I just don't have enough on there of more recent things I have put together and that have been used for different videos. I hope to focus on that again starting early next year, when I am finished with the second season of my review videos!

He did!

Unfortunately, his argument seems to revolve around there needing to be another theme representing 'love overcoming all things', which is an extremely individual assessment of the film.

But there is a 'love overcoming all things ' theme - the one that plays during the Mirror of Erised scene and 'Leaving Hogwarts'. It's both memorable and breathtakingly beautiful. As are the themes in 'Buckbeak's flight' and 'A Window to the Past'. Perhaps Williams's is too good at creating memorable themes, that he can only remember the 'main song'.

Yeah, that's basically what I responded to him with in the comments. He seems nice enough, but obviously made that video with only a vague recollection of the scores.

This is a very good point -- and one that I want to address.

In preparation to making this video, I had to make a very deliberate decision on whether I would listen to the entire soundtracks to all of the movies (which I seriously considered), or whether I only did so lightly.

I talked it over with several friends and musicians, and made the decision to listen to the scores to the movies only lightly in preparation to making this video. The reason is, because my videos are targeted primarily to the non-musician, average movie goers that most of the time probably don't even notice the music in movies, or even know how to begin to talk about it more than saying something like "Oh, and that music when that thing happens - that was very cool! It really hit me!".

Because I wanted to think like they do, to talk to what they have in their memories, which for most of them is also a vague recollection of the scores. And so the Main Theme to any movie series is the kind that floats to the top of people's memories, and on that tends to have the most power if used properly to impact them emotionally in the theatres I think, in a similar way that they did with Up.

I may be wrong on this, but am more than happy to explore the topic in more detail.

He seems nice at least, but very misguided and unknowledgeable. Perhaps we can set him on the right path.

Sounds like a line from a cult...

What does this guy actually write?

http://fredericlimon.com/portfolio-a/

Ugh - I haven't updated this in so long. As well in terms of what I actually write -- as I explained in another reply: I had a busy phase a while back in terms of composing, but then a family tragedy, followed by my getting married severely postponed my proactivity in composing. In the meantime I noticed my videos were getting a lot of interest, and I decided to dedicate a few months of my free time to produce a second season -- And so my website, in terms of showing what I have composed, is not only not updated on that page, I just don't have enough on there of more recent things I have put together and that have been used for different videos. I hope to focus on that again starting early next year, when I am finished with the second season of my review videos!

I have gotten work doing music videos, producing both the track and the videos, that seems to be where the market demand is currently. I'll want to post those on my page as soon as my lazy self decides to. Things are very busy!

Listen up John Williams. The composer of SplashWorld Resort has a few choice words about your music!

That was a fun track to compose!

In terms of the inference of the comment, I'll post here what I replied earlier:

" I really hope I did not evoke that I felt I was better or as good, or even nearly as good as JW in any ways!

I have to be more conscious of that in future videos where I may criticize how movie music was used.

I think John Williams is a genius, and I could never even come close to doing something like what he does with a score.

In my video, I hope I explain clearly how it is not of any lack of talent or genius on JW's part (he has more of that than most of us mere mortals), rather the direction that the producers and directors gave him on the music, which he delivered on perfectly."

Just want to add--I'm not dissing his work methods or his enthusiasm. As Mr. Big wrote, he seems like a nice guy. I just thought the way he advertised his job seemed a little trite.

How so?

My site has been a good basis for clients (more music video production [both the song and the video] recently vs strictly composing, it seems to be what the market is needing right now)-

But if the way I advertise my job seems a bit trite, I'd welcome any feedback to make it better

What my musical career is missing is a hip video of me being interviewed during a photoshoot.

Indeed!

Actually that video alone has gotten me a lot of gigs, including one recurring client that has been a major source of income the past 6 months (They specifically mentioned my editing and style of the EPK to be the reason they hired me to produce video and music for them). I haven't posted my newer work in a while, things are just super busy right now :/ This video commentary series alone has taken up so much time! It'll be good to relax once season 2 is over.

Yeah, seems like a lot of unnecessary fluff. A ruse that anyone with some decent music experience and education can sniff through.

But like Big and Sharky said, seems like a nice guy.

I agree that a video of me talking about music doesn't prove talent - rather the results I bring in the tracks and the music videos I provide clients.

It's too bad you feel like it's a ruse! I have a lot of happy clients

Regardless, I honestly can't argue over opinion...if you legitimately feel like the tracks and the videos I have on my site aren't good, or you just don't like them, then there's not much I can do to convince you otherwise :/

Is this the same guy who improved Rota's theme song for The Godfather? The original was so hollow but now it has the proper feels like all soundtracks need.

Nope! Not me!

;p

[Pieter Boelen 740]

From my point of view, as fan of the Harry Potter books (and the early movies) and also of John Williams, but decidedly NOT an expert on music theory:

Magic plays a huge role in the Harry Potter books. Without it, Harry Potter wouldn't be Harry Potter anymore.

Surely there are many other themes in the books (friendship, love, death, discrimination, etc.), but those can be found in many non-magical settings too.

So I certainly understand the film-makers' choice to have the main theme being one that primarily screams MAGIC!

In fact, I agree. It is hard not to, with Hedwig's Theme being as wonderful as it is.

From what I gathered, John Williams originally never meant Hedwig's Theme to be "the main theme" in the first place.

It was written as "a Harry Potter trailer theme". And in that respect, focusing primarily on the magic element makes even more sense.

While "a trailer theme" sometimes becomes the main theme for the film (like with Hook), this isn't always the case (like with 1941).

And of course with a theme like Hedwig's Theme, it is again understandable that Chris Columbus wanted to feature it primarily in the film.

With all trailers AND the first film using it in many appropriate points, it is again understandable that audiences remembered it.

It is actually interesting to note that Williams actually read the first book, while he always deliberately avoids reading the film scripts.

Clearly he was very well aware of what themes there were in the story and so he did brilliantly on establishing many musical themes to carry these different elements.

Surely Harry's Wondrous World has also become quite familiar to "the general public".

Perhaps not quite as much as Hedwig's Theme, but that is hard to top.

Williams himself put in much more effort than usual on the music for the first film. The "Children's Suite" that he wrote also features all the major themes individually.

So he certainly did his best to get the other themes noticed too. But of course not so many people ended up taking proper note of those.

Not everyone is as into film music as we are here, after all.

With the music for the first Harry Potter film doing so well in telling the story of the first book,

I cannot imagine there being a better main theme for the first film nor for the series.

Perhaps it could have been done. But that is just one of those things we will never know.

What I do NOT understand though is whatever happened to the music as the series progressed.

It just became more dull as it went on, with only token excerpts of Hedwig's Theme being thrown in to indicate once in a while that these ARE still Harry Potter films.

With the magic element being driven much further into the background, both in the films themselves and in the music, I myself certainly find something severely lacking in those later entries.

I can find plenty fault with whatever happened after Williams left the series.

He single-handedly saved Prisoned or Azkaban for me. The other films in the series were not so lucky.

But I cannot find fault with how Williams handled the first film as it is a very appropriate and well-rounded score.

When you hear it, you don't even need to watch the film; the music clearly speaks for itself and follows the book almost to the letter.

[limonmusic 0]

Alright. So you say that "Hedwig's Theme" doesn't encapsulate the themes of family and friendship that are at the core of the Harry Potter stories, and then to show how misguided you feel Williams was, you play...the theme for friendship, used when Harry won his first Quidditch game as his friends all cheered him on, when he took a walk with Hedwig, when he saw Ron and Hermione again at the end. You also happened to forget his theme for home and family, which from my interpretation is basically the A-side of the friendship theme, shaped similarly and IMO the true heart of the score. You remember, it was used first on Harry's birthday as he longs to get away from the Dursleys, used throughout the entire score in moments like Harry's first night at Hogwarts, The Mirror of Erised and Harry's chats with Dumbledore, and of course the wonderful cue "Leaving Hogwarts" with Harry saying farewell to Hagrid, which illustrates that he has found the home and the community he was looking for.

The thing about that first Harry Potter film is that it's really doing two things at once. It has to establish an emotional narrative, but it also has to create a new magical world that will hold up for an entire series. Your suggestion of one single theme would have been a way to do it, but Williams' solution was to treat them as separate entities and then ultimately bring them together. Back to "Hedwig's Theme" (which if you remember also has a "B theme" with a similar function, famously used when Hogwarts is revealed), it evokes the magic and mystery that is crucial in introducing this universe. It's like the Question Mark theme. Who sent these owls? What are these letters? What is this world of Hogwarts and magic? Is everything as wonderful as it seems? Within the film, Williams often uses it for simple scene transitions and to punctuate little moments with a sense of "Ooh what's that over there?" or "What's going to happen now?" That's the real role it plays. Moreover, you say it can't be molded to fit different moods, but notice the difference between how it's used at the beginning (Spooky, mysterious, intimidating, unresolved tension) and at the end (the final "period" before the credits, triumphant, warm, familiar, emotional resolution). There is clear development there, and Williams also starts to bring it into a couple emotionally charged moments toward the end, like Ron's chess sacrifice, or the B theme to quietly start Dumbledore's "love" speech to Harry. So instead of just trying to wrap everything about Harry Potter into one melody, he separated them, started re-working "Hedwig's Theme" toward a more emotional direction, and then capped it with "Leaving Hogwarts" to sum up the story...listen to that again and notice how he weaves "Hedwig's Theme" in and out of his family theme. As far as I'm concerned, that's why that was such a great finale for not just the first film but also to be re-used in the last, and turns on the waterworks for all Potter fans. It's hard for me to take seriously the notion that it could have been topped.

Again, people always consider "Hedwig's Theme" the main theme because obviously it's so memorable and was an exciting way to sell these movies. It made them stand out and certainly captures the imagination with magical adventure that is absolutely the series' broader appeal. As I said, it's a great Question Mark theme which was not only important to the stories themselves, but such a big part of the experience for everyone while anticipating the books and films. "Hey everybody, what's gonna happen next?" It just feels right as a general Harry Potter theme but it's not necessarily the heart of the story and was never intended to be. I recommend listening to Williams' work again and looking closer at how he approached the films he worked on because to me you're looking at this the wrong way. Williams took this franchise and created an entire musical world of invention and emotional resonance as a perfect companion to JK Rowling's original stories, and you seem to be criticizing him for not limiting himself to a narrow single theme approach. It worked fine for Up because that's a straightforward story with a very clear emotional center, but it would have simplified the far more episodic nature of this franchise. Ditch the B-sides and the long-lined development, the secondary motifs, the establishment and interweaving of primary themes, the specific character/location/creature melodies, and swap all of that variety for an all-purpose theme that can be used everywhere? Is that what Harry Potter deserved?

Frederic Limon's reaction:

Ahaha I lol'ed when I saw this!

Actually my reaction was a lot more of fascination and delight - I know it's weird, but even if someone disagrees with me, I love it when someone takes the time to put in thought and a lengthy explanation into their comments.

As mentioned before, since my videos in large part are geared towards the average movie goer to think of music and understand it in a way they never thought they could, my musician side sometimes feels a bit empty, looking for a more meatier discussion.

Which is why I got excited when I saw all the comments on this forum!

But I hate not being able to hate him!

My wife says the same thing.

Regardless of whether I agree with you or not, I'd like to say I applaud your bravery for coming here, in the lion's den, where people (myself included) have been going on a pretty virulent rant against you. It's courageous of you to face all that anger.

Ahaha thank you! I remember telling my wife, that I expect a lot of vitriol when I post this video, probably more than any other I've posted so far. And that there are probably a lot of angles I haven't considered yet.

I can't claim to be innocent in terms of enjoying hating on something/someone on forums....so I totally get it. I hope that at least some of my replies further flesh out my argument

Hedwig's Theme can't be molded into anything else?

What a fucking retard. Hedwig's Theme forms the basis for most themes John Williams wrote across the three movies.

Did he just miss this track?

That is the fucking definition of molding Hedwig's Theme into something different. That's what Window to the Past is, a remolding of Hedwig's Theme.

I listened to the track you posted the link to- while Hedwig's theme does make a small cameo at 2:17, it doesn't last longer than 10 seconds...the rest of the song is a very different tone. What I mean when I say that Hedwig's Theme can't be moulded to mean something other than Magic, I refer specifically to the melody itself, especially the last 6 notes (E-G-F#-D-F natural-B), are very difficult to modify what's going on around them, or with lower instruments to make it sound like something other than magic, or the mysteriousness of magic. So within those 10 seconds that it makes that appearance, it brought me back to the magical aspect of Harry's world.

I think you missed the point here. The actual Window to the Past theme itself is a variation of Hedwig's. Listen to the beginning of that, and the beginning of this:

That's not unintentional.

I agree, it's definitely a variation of it!

Though I am arguing more about what the average movie goer experiences in the theatre, (non-musical, doesn't think about that aspect of things much), this variation is different enough from Hedwig's Theme that I don't feel it was a powerful emotional connection going back to hedwigs theme for the audience, at least not as much as something a lot more close to the main theme (again, those main first 14 notes). In much the same way that Up did. So I am arguing not so much for Variations, but variations that have much more fidelity to the main 2-20 notes of a main theme. (I included the number 2 there, because they pulled it off with [off the top of my head] Jaws and with the Dark Knight series)

I responded...probably a waste of time, but I'm curious to see if he replies

(eg. I would LOVE someone to argue how a Bdiminished cord [the basis of the last 3 notes, out of the first 14 of Hedwig's Theme] could be manipulated to mean different things if different voicings going on around them, or different instruments were tried!)

What exactly does this mean?

Just an example of something very musician-ish (talking about the merits of the flexibility of a diminished cord, which forms a part of Hedwigs theme at one point with a broken triad), that I normally don't get to discuss in the comments of my videos (but would love to!), since my videos are geared in large part to the average movie going audience that don't know much about music, to get them to think and understand music in a way they never knew they could.

And so how I really enjoy when someone takes the time to give a lengthy and well thought out response! Both in the Youtube comments as well as in forums like this one

[Richard Penna 3,676]

Well Frederic, you responded to each and every one of our 'reactions', and with a sense of humour. You have my respect sir

It's very true that all of this is down to very individual interpretation. I come across so many people who don't have a clue about scores and themes (mostly my work colleagues) that it's easy to lump people into the 'dumb' category if what they're saying doesn't quite make sense.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

That's not a diminished chord. And what could be argued? A good composer can take any material and mold it to suit a particular dramatic function. It'd be easy to make something threatening or tender or wistful or magical out of a B, a D#, and an F.

[Faleel 5,340]

Kind of funny, seeing how Hedwigs theme sounds a bit like Schindler's List, and sort of appears in Attack of the Clones

[Loert 2,510]

(eg. I would LOVE someone to argue how a Bdiminished cord [the basis of the last 3 notes, out of the first 14 of Hedwig's Theme] could be manipulated to mean different things if different voicings going on around them, or different instruments were tried!)

The celeste plays D#-F-B, but the winds (bassoon and english horn) and horns later on play D-F-B, so Williams keeps changing the notes! Also, I wouldn't call it a B diminished chord, because the last note (B) is either meant to be part of the E minor triad or B major triad (with the celeste it's clearly E minor but with the horns it's ambiguous, although I would say it's also E minor myself). What I tend to think is that, with D#-F-B, Williams is evading the E to create a sort of tension, and with D-F-B, Williams is obviously referencing the D#-F-B (which I would call the 'raw' version of Hedwig's Theme), but the change to D sort of stabilises the theme more, maybe by suggesting a shift to B minor, the dominant V chord. Perhaps he does this because the winds and horns are more "forthcoming" instruments than the celeste.

As for the 'magical' feeling, I think most of this comes from the orchestration and the context. The celeste playing in the minor key always sounds sorta 'creepy', and Hedwig's Theme itself, especially the last three notes, definitely add a mysterious feel to it. When the other instruments come in later, they're always supported by string runs and effects in the background, as if there was a magical spell floating through the air (or.....Hedwig!). But even so, I can well see Hedwig's Theme playing in a kid's horror movie with no reference to magic...perhaps the theme is more 'supernatural' than anything.

[limonmusic 0]

That's not a diminished chord. And what could be argued? A good composer can take any material and mold it to suit a particular dramatic function. It'd be easy to make something threatening or tender or wistful or magical out of a B, a D#, and an F.

I was basing it off of sheet music that I had - it's a natural D. So a diminished chord. But as loert423 mentioned, sometimes it's a D natural and sometimes it's a sharp. Sorry for the confusion!

And in terms of arguing, I would venture to go more specifically into arguing whether those notes, with the rhythm and sequence of how they are in hedwig's theme, are impossible to invoke anything other than magic or the supernatural (I may have jumped the gun in saying that just the chord itself is not malleable). I very much strongly feel that, so I would love for someone to show me examples and bring some very good counterarguments, not because I'm trying to challenge people, but because I genuinely enjoy discussing the minutiae of music and melodies

(eg. I would LOVE someone to argue how a Bdiminished cord [the basis of the last 3 notes, out of the first 14 of Hedwig's Theme] could be manipulated to mean different things if different voicings going on around them, or different instruments were tried!)

The celeste plays D#-F-B, but the winds (bassoon and english horn) and horns later on play D-F-B, so Williams keeps changing the notes! Also, I wouldn't call it a B diminished chord, because the last note (B) is either meant to be part of the E minor triad or B major triad (with the celeste it's clearly E minor but with the horns it's ambiguous, although I would say it's also E minor myself). What I tend to think is that, with D#-F-B, Williams is evading the E to create a sort of tension, and with D-F-B, Williams is obviously referencing the D#-F-B (which I would call the 'raw' version of Hedwig's Theme), but the change to D sort of stabilises the theme more, maybe by suggesting a shift to B minor, the dominant V chord. Perhaps he does this because the winds and horns are more "forthcoming" instruments than the celeste.

As for the 'magical' feeling, I think most of this comes from the orchestration and the context. The celeste playing in the minor key always sounds sorta 'creepy', and Hedwig's Theme itself, especially the last three notes, definitely add a mysterious feel to it. When the other instruments come in later, they're always supported by string runs and effects in the background, as if there was a magical spell floating through the air (or.....Hedwig!). But even so, I can well see Hedwig's Theme playing in a kid's horror movie with no reference to magic...perhaps the theme is more 'supernatural' than anything.

Interesting...I played it on my piano, and for some reason I'm not feeling the E minor as much -I do with the E-G-F# portion- but it still feels grounded in a variation of the B diminished/B flat5 once it gets to those last 3 notes. Either that's subjective, or I'm off...This is a conversation I feel is much more easily discussed in person with an instrument lol.

And yes, totally agreed - evading that E creates some really good tension there.

And as to Hedwig's theme being more "supernatural" than anything-I haven't thought of that! It makes sense.... the celeste portion playing during a kid's horror movie just gave me an idea for a fake trailer..

Kind of funny, seeing how Hedwigs theme sounds a bit like Schindler's List, and sort of appears in Attack of the Clones

Interesting..

Well Frederic, you responded to each and every one of our 'reactions', and with a sense of humour. You have my respect sir

It's very true that all of this is down to very individual interpretation. I come across so many people who don't have a clue about scores and themes (mostly my work colleagues) that it's easy to lump people into the 'dumb' category if what they're saying doesn't quite make sense.

Thank you!

And if anyone still decides put me in the 'dumb' category for any reason, at the very least I know it's having been done so with my being able to fully explain myself and flesh out what I'm trying to say. Beyond that there's not much I can do

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

That's not a diminished chord. And what could be argued? A good composer can take any material and mold it to suit a particular dramatic function. It'd be easy to make something threatening or tender or wistful or magical out of a B, a D#, and an F.

In the celesta introduction the melody outlines D#, F and B - an ambiguous trichord suggesting the dominant, but in the main horn line it's D, F and B - a diminished 5th. What's funny is we we never really hear the dominant instead, just the dominant of the dominant (F#7) at the end of the second period.

Edit: Damn. Beaten to the punch.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Whether it's chords or individual notes doesn't matter. A set of notes is only limited in its expressive capability by the skill of the composer. Have a B, D or D#, and F been used in non-magical contexts before? Boy, I sure assume so.

[limonmusic 0]

Whether it's chords or individual notes doesn't matter. A set of notes is only limited in its expressive capability by the skill of the composer. Have a B, D or D#, and F been used in non-magical contexts before? Boy, I sure assume so.

Definitely agree that a B, D or D#, and F have been used in nonmagical/paranormal contexts. That's why I corrected myself when I said the "chord", instead of the exact sequence and rhythm of notes in hedwigs theme. Since if we just discuss on the merits of the chord, it's definitely malleable to be changed to mean many things.

As I mentioned in my previous reply, I am referring more specifically to the specific arrangement of those notes, with their rhythm and sequence in Hedwigs theme (as the 12th, 13th and 14th notes in that melody). I do not believe that can be used without a paranormal/magical image coming to mind. (perhaps mysteriousness can be evoked out of it, divorced of anything supernatural, I think that could be argued)

As mentioned, I am more than open to being wrong! I would love to see examples of it

Regardless, my mentioning this in the first point was just to illustrate that I would really enjoy talking about the minutiae of melodies, etc. And I don't normally get that sort of discussion when people comment on my videos. So I have to admit I love getting into these sorts of details in places like this forum!

Though you seem to be a bit dismissive, somewhat sarcastic or cheeky here or there regardless of my responses...it's light but regardless (Am I reading that wrong?), I hope everything can be cool with a fellow Sagan fan (Contact is my favorite movie of all time, and my wife and I devoured the first Cosmos series, let alone the second one!)

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Ok so you mean the exact phrases, with the original "daaa, da daaa" rhythm, can't be used without paranormal or magical images coming to mind.

Very well, I reckon these aren't very paranormal or magical. Just a few seconds of imagination.

http://picosong.com/J9bu/

[Loert 2,510]

^I literally did something very similar just now (nice stuff btw)!

Here's some more doodling...

[limonmusic 0]

Ok so you mean the exact phrases, with the original "daaa, da daaa" rhythm, can't be used without paranormal or magical images coming to mind.

Very well, I reckon these aren't very paranormal or magical. Just a few seconds of imagination.

http://picosong.com/J9bu/

Nice! I liked it

For some reason my brain didn't consider that sort of feel (jazzy, those sorts of chords on the bottom, etc.)! I think I was blocking myself from something like that as I was thinking strictly in terms of what would be in a "main theme", though obviously something jazzy could be a main theme (The Incredibles comes to mind) You showed me up

This is a perfect example of the kind of interaction I would never get in Youtube comments btw (though I probably would have picked a discussion much more interesting or that I feel more strongly about than whether those 3 notes can be moulded to mean something else - if I gave it more thought than just being an offhand remark!). Thanks for taking the time!

^I literally did something very similar just now (nice stuff btw)!

Here's some more doodling...

Love it!

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Just want to add--I'm not dissing his work methods or his enthusiasm. As Mr. Big wrote, he seems like a nice guy. I just thought the way he advertised his job seemed a little trite.

How so?

My site has been a good basis for clients (more music video production [both the song and the video] recently vs strictly composing, it seems to be what the market is needing right now)-

But if the way I advertise my job seems a bit trite, I'd welcome any feedback to make it better

I should've been clearer. To me the 'How I compose' vid came off as a bit unintentionally funny (interview mid photoshoot, assembling the studio space, constant zooming and racking focus, sound bites), that's all. TBH, it felt like a clip from an upcoming Christopher Guest film.

At the same, it's not aimed at me or any of us at JWFAN - it's for industry professionals. Obviously a lot of money was put into it and it shows, rightly.

BTW, I hope you stick around here. Once you get past the the whole ordeal by fire when first posting, it's one of the coolest places on the internet.

[mrbellamy 6,272]

FWIW, here's a brief Hedwig's Theme statement from Desplat that went a little against type at 1 min, 37 sec:

He did!

Unfortunately, his argument seems to revolve around there needing to be another theme representing 'love overcoming all things', which is an extremely individual assessment of the film.

But there is a 'love overcoming all things ' theme - the one that plays during the Mirror of Erised scene and 'Leaving Hogwarts'. It's both memorable and breathtakingly beautiful. As are the themes in 'Buckbeak's flight' and 'A Window to the Past'. Perhaps Williams's is too good at creating memorable themes, that he can only remember the 'main song'.

Yeah, that's basically what I responded to him with in the comments. He seems nice enough, but obviously made that video with only a vague recollection of the scores.

This is a very good point -- and one that I want to address.
In preparation to making this video, I had to make a very deliberate decision on whether I would listen to the entire soundtracks to all of the movies (which I seriously considered), or whether I only did so lightly.

I talked it over with several friends and musicians, and made the decision to listen to the scores to the movies only lightly in preparation to making this video. The reason is, because my videos are targeted primarily to the non-musician, average movie goers that most of the time probably don't even notice the music in movies, or even know how to begin to talk about it more than saying something like "Oh, and that music when that thing happens - that was very cool! It really hit me!".
Because I wanted to think like they do, to talk to what they have in their memories, which for most of them is also a vague recollection of the scores. And so the Main Theme to any movie series is the kind that floats to the top of people's memories, and on that tends to have the most power if used properly to impact them emotionally in the theatres I think, in a similar way that they did with Up.

I may be wrong on this, but am more than happy to explore the topic in more detail.

Ahh I gotcha. I wouldn't say you're wrong about trying to gauge the general audience response, but I think this does get at the real issue with the films which is that post-Williams, the filmmakers and composers didn't really even attempt the kind of multi-film musical storytelling that you're talking about here. How many great Hedwig's Theme moments are there in movies 4-8, anyway? It got some scattered lip service here and there, especially in Part 2, but did it have a defined storytelling role as the films wore on? The later movies typically favored brand new thematic material by nearly 100% with no really notable thematic development or associations across several films....any notion of "series themes" mostly fell by the wayside. I still maintain that Hedwig's popularity came largely from those iconic moments in the first film and as you noted from constant use in marketing for the films, the books, the merchandise, the theme park, etc over 10 years.

Patrick Doyle's "Harry in Winter" theme was good enough, I think, to have been continued as a broader franchise theme, but nobody carried it over. Frankly, though, most of the new themes weren't really up to snuff. Nicholas Hooper had a central theme for his scores called Possession. He used it specifically when Harry's possessed in OOTP, and also in HBP when he bloodies up Draco and when Dumbledore casts the firestorm. I believe elsewhere too, but even just those are pretty good fodder for memorable "Wow!" moments. Big deals for Harry, the story, the spectacle. A theme like that could theoretically stand out in some major way for a lot of people. So here it is at 1 minute and 39 seconds:

I'll leave it to you to figure out why everyone still defaulted to Hedwig's Theme.

I think about Star Wars, where sure, it has what I would call a "main theme"....Luke's theme, the main title. But is the Force theme any less potent for moviegoers? Talking of marketing again, the 2nd trailer for Force Awakens didn't even feature the main fanfare, but rather the Force theme because of course it still evokes strong feelings. IMO the main title really brings to mind those great moments of physical heroism and spectacle in the movies, lightsaber fights and spaceship battles. Whereas The Force theme recalls internal/emotional heroism. Luke gazing out into the two sunsets or Darth Vader overtaking the Emperor. In terms of broadly evoking the Star Wars mythos, they're companions. Or The Lord of the Rings...is it the adventurous Fellowship theme or the reflective Hobbit material that stuck with viewers? I'd argue it's both, that together they reflect the overall spirit of those stories.

Potter ultimately kept falling back on Hedwig's Theme alone, and even then didn't really do too much with it as the films wore on. Yet I'm almost positive that any regular viewer who noticed the Family theme at the end of Deathly Hallows 2 would have identified it as the "main theme" from the first two movies. That's why it was brought back in the first place, and once again in the world of advertising, it showed up in the trailer for Prisoner of Azkaban (1 min, 3 seconds), despite the director change and despite the theme sitting out for that film.

If they had brought it back into the films, though, continuing a broader association as the emotional counterpart to Hedwig's Theme and not just "that theme from the Chris Columbus movies," or if they had chosen to really pick up on A Window to the Past, or Harry in Winter, I think that would have solved a lot of the problems you raised in your video. Instead, though, Hedwig's Theme stood out as the signal for magic and mystery, while the continued rejection of all previous emotional/family material prevented any one theme from rising above the pack.

PS it is indeed nice to see you found your way over here! I agree with Sharky that I really hope the sarcasm of the place hasn't turned you off...seems you have the good humor for it, regardless, and it is a great little haven for fans of movies and music. Stick around!

[KK 3,307]

Kudos to you Frederic for taking on each of our comments, and in good spirit too!

I guess in the end, even if the mainstream take-away theme did not seem to encompass what you view as the defining theme of the series, one has to just look at how effective these themes and scores have been at defining the films and addressing the core emotional beats of the story.

I think a reason so much debate has sparked on here is probably because we are not your core audience for your videos.

Yeah, seems like a lot of unnecessary fluff. A ruse that anyone with some decent music experience and education can sniff through.

But like Big and Sharky said, seems like a nice guy.

I agree that a video of me talking about music doesn't prove talent - rather the results I bring in the tracks and the music videos I provide clients.
It's too bad you feel like it's a ruse! I have a lot of happy clients
Regardless, I honestly can't argue over opinion...if you legitimately feel like the tracks and the videos I have on my site aren't good, or you just don't like them, then there's not much I can do to convince you otherwise :/

Haha, to clarify, I had no problem with your music! Just as Sharky said, as a musician, I just found your promo video a bit amusing with all the pomp, but in the end that's what sells. It's clearly something aimed to sell your image to your clients rather than the technicals of your music, and I can tell that's effective in that regard. Again, not your target audience here.

Though you seem to be a bit dismissive, somewhat sarcastic or cheeky here or there regardless of my responses...it's light but regardless (Am I reading that wrong?), I hope everything can be cool with a fellow Sagan fan (Contact is my favorite movie of all time, and my wife and I devoured the first Cosmos series, let alone the second one!)

That's the classic JWFan persona actually. It takes a while to get used to, but once you get past all of that, you'll find a lot of neat discussion here, especially of the kind you've been talking about. We have a lot of musicians and composers on here too with more in depth theoretical discussion.

And that last bit will definitely put you on Grey's good graces I hope you stick around!

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Yeah, most of the negative comments hear are sarcastic and tongue and cheek.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Not from me though. I'm genuinely unpleasant.

[Incanus 5,713]

Not from me though. I'm genuinely unpleasant.

Tell me about! All that gab about Zimmer this and Zimmer that.

And hello Limonmusic!

You are brave indeed to enter the lion's den that is JWFan and really sporting of you to give us some comments!

And don't let the cheeky atmosphere intimidate you. We are mostly quite a merry gathering.

[Thor 7,478]

His problem is obviously a lack of knowledge and education in the art of film music. He's apparently following the "Dan Hobgood logic" (FSM members will know what I mean), wherein a mono-thematic approach is always favoured over a leitmotif approach. Thus, he fails to recognize the values of leitmotifs in the multi-faceted, mythological universe that is HARRY POTTER (it's not the self-contained universe that UP is, for example). Moreover, he also fails to recognize the many permutations of "Hedwig's Theme" that DO appear throughout the films, even when John Williams is not the composer.

He's entitled to his opinion -- and there are several aspects of the HARRY POTTER music that are open to criticism -- but a bit more perspective wouldn't hurt in this case.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Thor 7,478]

Ha! So I am. I somehow missed 'page 2'....

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[bollemanneke 3,338]

Uh, uh.. Um... No comment...? The point of the video is... what, exactly? Anyone feel like sending him the theme suites?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Thoughts?

I think this guy seems to oversimplify everything he talks about. And the whole idea of the main theme being off is ridiculous, given that the music he prefers is actually from the 'Harry Potter' soundtrack and there can be multiple themes in a movie!

Tried to finally watch this, but the moment he mentions he realizes what was wrong with Williams Potter theme after hearing the music from Gia's Up, I stopped watching.

Zero credibility....less then zero actually.

[nightscape94 965]

The shame about it is that he could very well be a good musician or a studied composer, but he needs to rethink his approach to scoring. He's confined himself to a specific set of rules.

[Thor 7,478]

Dude! Read the thread. The guy has responded to all our comments!

Not mine. But I guess all has been said already.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

We scared him off!

[Thor 7,478]

Damn. I had looked forward to disassembling his viewpoints from an academic angle.

[limonmusic 0]

We scared him off!

Hello all!

My apologies, I will respond to all the further comments made--

I took more than several hours responding to the first batch of comments a few weeks ago, and fully intend to catch up soon-

Just life is super busy currently! Leaves less time than I would like on my review series and answering comments! Even though it's a priority-

I especially look forward to disassembling my viewpoints from an academic angle

Chat soon-

-Frederic

[Thor 7,478]

Bring it!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[skyy38 21]

Hedwig's Theme can't be molded into anything else?

What a fucking retard. Hedwig's Theme forms the basis for most themes John Williams wrote across the three movies.

Did he just miss this track?

That is the fucking definition of molding Hedwig's Theme into something different. That's what Window to the Past is, a remolding of Hedwig's Theme.