Prisoner of Azkaban

[Alex 2,833]

Hi guys. I apologise if this subject has been discussed, but I was wondering what ensemble JW used for POA? I was curious to know why he didn't use the LSO (scheduling?). It did shock me when I found out it wasn't the LSO, because the ensemble sounds really good. It's easily one of JW best sounding scores

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Hollywood Symphony Orchestra.

[Alex 2,833]

So was it recorded in the U.S. then? Is there any kind of source for this? I've never been able to find anything concrete on the Internet.

[mrbellamy 6,272]

The liner notes say it was recorded and mixed at Abbey Road.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Really? I stand corrected if that's true

[Alex 2,833]

Yeah I wondered about that because I think he used the London Oratory School choir for "Double Trouble"

[Incanus 5,713]

Williams probably used a London freelance ensemble which most likely had members from the major orchestras in the city. It was the same with The Philosopher's Stone score as well. Only The Chamber of Secrets was performed by the LSO.

[TownerFan 4,983]

While both Sorcerer's Stone and Prisoner of Azkaban were recorded with contracted London freelance players, most of them were actually people from the LSO.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

While both Sorcerer's Stone and Prisoner of Azkaban were recorded with contracted London freelance players, most of them were actually people from the LSO.

Yes, and it's no coincidence that both those scores sound great.

[Incanus 5,713]

While both Sorcerer's Stone and Prisoner of Azkaban were recorded with contracted London freelance players, most of them were actually people from the LSO.

It would be nice to see the player roster for the sessions of both scores.

[Alex 2,833]

While both Sorcerer's Stone and Prisoner of Azkaban were recorded with contracted London freelance players, most of them were actually people from the LSO.

Yes, and it's no coincidence that both those scores sound great.

Especially the action sequences in POA

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

While both Sorcerer's Stone and Prisoner of Azkaban were recorded with contracted London freelance players, most of them were actually people from the LSO.

Yes, and it's no coincidence that both those scores sound great.

Especially the action sequences in POA

Imagine all of the trumpet flubs, woodwind squeaks, and muffled farts that would have resulted from an LA orchestra performing those pieces. Thank god for the LSO!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

They are such a versatile orchestra!

[TownerFan 4,983]

While both Sorcerer's Stone and Prisoner of Azkaban were recorded with contracted London freelance players, most of them were actually people from the LSO.

It would be nice to see the player roster for the sessions of both scores.

Players from the LSO included the late Maurice Murphy (principal trumpet), Andrew Marriner (clarinet) and Gareth Davies (flute)

Among other notable players were flutist Karen Jones (it's her on the amazing solo in "Secrets of the Castle") and harpist Skaila Kanga.

[crocodile 7,983]

They are such a versatile orchestra!

They are certainly more versatile than LA musicians, due to their concert experience. And they are also more experienced than most concert orchestras, given their film experience.

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 7,983]

It would be cross between Inchon, Rambo III and Conan the Barbarian.

And, to add insult to injury, it will be recorded in Alan Silvestri's wine cellar. Due to recording studios being booked and/or shut down.

Karol

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Why even go with an orchestra at all? They're far too expensive for what is essentially background noise to fill in the gaps between the sound effects and dialogue.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

It would be cross between Inchon, Rambo III and Conan the Barbarian.

And, to add insult to injury, it will be recorded in Alan Silvestri's wine cellar. Due to recording studios being book and/or shut down.

Karol

Isn't that what happened on Warlock: The Armageddon?

[lostinspace 8]

I tend to agree. The LSO are so far above any orchestra (except some in Europe Germany / Vienna).

The brass are so well balanced mellow and accurate probably in part due to the late Maurice Murphy...THe strings sonorous when required (think Anakins Betrayl). The hollywood brass tend to sound brash and the intonation is not there.... (eg. tintin). To think what the LSO could have done with that score..

I'm not trying to discredit LA players, they are really technically superb. But from a listeners perspective technicality is only one aspect.

The mixing is so different in POA and doesn't sound anything like chamber or sorceres stone. I also think click track may have been used in action cues as everything seems so precise.. there are also quite a few pre layers (forward to time past) etc..

Ultimately I think it comes down to not just good playing. It is down to intonation that is where the LSO is so great...

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

The intonation of the brass instruments is terrible in many places in Star Wars and Raiders.

I think the bashing of the LA players is going little bit too far.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The intonation of the brass instruments is terrible in many places in Star Wars and Raiders.

You are wrong! The LSO is an immaculate orchestra! They have never played a bad or wrong note!

[Wojo 2,453]

The LSO is so good that they prove which notes the composer and orchestrator put on paper that were wrong.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

They don't actually need a composer or a conductor!

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

The intonation of the brass instruments is terrible in many places in Star Wars and Raiders.

I think the bashing of the LA players is going little bit too far.

Indeed.

[Alex 2,833]

I find the performance of the LA orchestra varies, mainly because it's not always the same performers. You can't really tell the difference in Hook or Jurassic Park etc but the performance for KOTC is noticeably weaker than the LSO's for Raiders.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

They are the best players in the world.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But not very versatile!

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

I know you're joking, but I'll take the chance to point out that their versatility is exactly what makes them the best.

The LSO is an excellent ensemble, made up of excellent individual musicians. But what's their output consist of, what musical challenges do they face? There are some film scores, and the occasional pops/crossover type album or concert, and, representing the vast majority of what they're up, their concert season. And let's face it, barring a premiere or two or some rogue creative programming, the repertoire they deal with in these concerts, again, the great bulk of their musical time, is by any standard repetitive, not very diverse, particularly when put up against what might happen in Los Angeles in a given week - incidentally, even ignoring film scoring stuff and comparing only to the LA Philharmonic, we see a still easily superior situation in La La Land than in Londontown when it comes to musical diversity and thus versatility in the musicians involved. So, you have an orchestra that is extraordinarily proficient at playing the great classics, and who can come together, obviously, to tackle a new work or film score, and lend it the requisite sheen of professionalism which is what many hear and mistake for sheer versatility and skill.

But compared to the HSS folks, who are drawn from all manner of regional orchestras and ensembles (not just "classical" obviously), many being involved in several or more of them, who tackle new or at least uncommon music on a regular basis of a huge variety of styles, the LSO is less impressive. Consummate musicians who can play immensely, but not facing great musical demands which constantly force them to improve and broaden their abilities, as their Hollywood counterparts do. The utter rigor of the Los Angeles musicians' experience unquestionably puts them at the top, globally - and the notion that the fluid roster of the HSS means there's no chance for coherence matching an established orchestra's is nonsensical to anyone with musical knowhow and who appreciates just how often these people do, in fact, play with each other, and in a great number of different contexts. A lot of the "lesser" scores often cited (Tintin, KOTCS) are better understood as failures in recording and engineering, or conducting/orchestration/even composition (yes, even if it's Williams), or as pure lack of spirit and inspiration in the production than as failures of musicianship.

But don't we all know this schtick by now?

[publicist 4,643]

But Belief is men's kingdom of heaven, so...

[crocodile 7,983]

So you would classify recording supposedly diverse repertoire of film scoring in LA as an artistic challenge, TGP? Isn't that the most boring job for these people?

I always thought having both classical routine, as well as pop and film scoring is exactly what gives LSO the advantage. But hey... all those great composers must be wrong then...

Karol

[publicist 4,643]

A lot of people here are talking out of their asses - the recording of AZKABAN is either praised for its London sheen or shunned for its random LA playing, whatever the respective poster believes to be true at the given moment, so...

Both of these musician groups have their days off, changing player ensemble, changing leaders and so on. This 'unique' quality they ought to have every day under any circumstance is just that: a musical fata morgana.

[crocodile 7,983]

Don't rob me of my delusions. I need them!

Having said that, I still can't believe that so many composers prefer London musicians purely out of habit/nostalgia.

Karol

[publicist 4,643]

No but consider when they said that, often in a context, i. e. Desplat, Horner or Williams, when asked about the LSO so what do you expect them to say?

[Incanus 5,713]

"They are kind of nice... or maybe I don't know, maybe they suck. But they keep dragging me here to work with these people. Que sera, sera."

[Faleel 5,333]

They are the best players in the world.

They can't project!

[Incanus 5,713]

They are the best players in the world.

They can't project!

"If they can't project they're off the project" is my motto.

[lostinspace 8]

I think people raise good points about the LA recordings... Munich, Jurassic Park, Air Force One (goldsmith), Far and Away, Tintin were all recorded at Sony stage but the mixing varies a lot Munich in particular but it works great in the film. Indiana Jones and Crystal Skull is a bit dull but to be honest the score is not really very good compared with JW level..

I never understood how on one hand the LA composers praise the LA musicians but on the other hand if they have the budget they prefer to record in London .. something about them looking down on you.. I know JW had a run in with the Boston Symphony but that was maybe early 80's? This wasn't encountered in London or outside LA for some reason

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

There are many people who prefer LA regardless of budget.

[publicist 4,643]

And i don't get what Munich, Jurassic Park, Air Force One (goldsmith), Far and Away, Tintin and its mixing proves? As hornist said, the playing AND mixing in ROTLA, a certifiable classic, sometimes is badly off. Now it's part of the recording's charm but i wager the L.A.-recorded E. T. (not to speak of TOD) is played and mixed vastly better. Now what?

[Jilal 569]

I'm afraid I vastly prefer ROTLA's recording and mixing - Tomlinson had great aesthetics sensibilities. The DCC seems to present the score in seemingly intact form, so that's my benchmark.

[publicist 4,643]

The brass sounds - in comparison to more recent recordings - often harsh and unbecoming - just listen to these tubas underneath - and the strings and drums in some cues appear to vanish in the background. It is a rather idiosyncratic analogue recording, comparable to ALIENS in many ways, and while it of course isn't 'bad' i even noticed these shortcomings when i was 15 and first bought the record.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

The brass sounds - in comparison to more recent recordings - often harsh and unbecoming - just listen to these tubas underneath - and the strings and drums in some cues appear to vanish in the background. It is a rather idiosyncratic analogue recording, comparable to ALIENS in many ways, and while it of course isn't 'bad' i even noticed these shortcomings when i was 15 and first bought the record.

"Harsh" is the word I would use too. A lot of John Williams 70's/80's scores bear that description for me.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

For me, HP1 has always sounded very restrained, as if someone was constantly telling the musicians not to enjoy themselves. I've always found HP2 to be Williams's best performed HP score because you can just tell the orchestra was having a ball. And oh my God, that harp player in Quidditch! The LSO is THE best orchestra, imho.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

For me, HP1 has always sounded very restrained, as if someone was constantly telling the musicians not to enjoy themselves. I've always found HP2 to be Williams's best performed HP score because you can just tell the orchestra was having a ball.

Yes! That's the quality of William Ross' conducting over John Williams'!

[Jilal 569]

Hmm. The harshness in ROTLA may have more to do with the way Williams spells out chords in the score, pub - take, for example, Flight From Peru:

At 0:58, the trombones and tuba play a series of chords (Bb -> C -> Fm -> G7), voiced as:

Bb3 \

F3 / (trombones 1°-3°)

Bb2 /

D2 (trombone 4° + tuba)

to

C4 \

G3 / (trombones 1°-3°)

C3 /

E2 (trombone 4° + tuba)

to

F4 \

C4 \ (trombones)

F3 /

Ab2 /

Ab1 (tuba)

to

G3 \

D3 \ (trombones)

B2 /

F2 /

F1 (tuba)

The thirds at the bottom of the first two chords (D-Bb and E-C), the sixth at the bottom of the third (Ab-F) and the tritone in the fourth one (F-B) create exactly the harshness you mention, as well as a form of propulsive tension, as if the chords have to move forward.

[publicist 4,643]

Alexander, this is rubbish. Just listen how the recording sucks all dynamic life from brass and kettle drums in the symptomatic passage between 01:07 and 01:15. This is recording quality ca. LAWRENCE OF ARABIA and by that time - comparing this to CLOSE ENCOUNTERS or even JAWS 2 recorded in L. A. - this is an anachronism.

I think Williams cheeky enough to have this old-fashioned sheen for the mock-pulpy nature of the movie but taking such meta-stuff away from it, it just doesn't make for a very satisfying listen, imho.

[Jilal 569]

It's all a question of taste, I suppose. To me, this is a brilliant recording, especially as presented on the DCC edition.

[publicist 4,643]

Everything can be explained away with taste but that usually stonewalls any lively discussion. Not overemphasing this score and its recording - the DCC seems to make matters worse, actually, compared to the old Polydor release - i still think the whole discussion about ensembles is a bit of a hoax with people hearing what they want to hear.

A Coke-Pepsi test is in order, though i'm certain the London recording of POA was already wrongly attributed to L.A. players here so that kind of proves my point.

[Jilal 569]

It all depends on whether the matter being discussed can be defended with objective arguments - in that case, you have a point, as Tomlinson was known to record in his own, fairly unusual way compared to his contemporaneous peers. What you consider the recording's shortcomings happen to be what I treasure it for, though, so there you have it.