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Harmonic Progressions in Williams


filmmusic

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Isn't it just the V7/V? With the G as part of a V7 which is not harmonised.

yes, that's what Ludwig said more or less..

Ah ok i see...I didn't exactly get the "V4/3" though.

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it's the 2nd inversion.

the chord is fa#-la#-do#-mi, and it's second inversion is with the do# in the bass.

it's difficult to write the 4/3 here. it needs special fonts. ;)

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  • 4 weeks later...

Isn't it just the V7/V? With the G as part of a V7 which is not harmonised.

On second thought it sounds like V7/V - III (not harmonized) - I to me...is this a common progression?

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The G is simply the b9th of the F#7 chord.

But were it harmonized with a III the progression would sound very Williamseque imo....

The reason I came up with it was that V7/V-I isnt very logical, is it?

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But were it harmonized with a III the progression would sound very Williamseque imo....

The reason I came up with it was that V7/V-I isnt very logical, is it?

Indeed it's not very logical, and I think that's part of the point of using the progression - as I mention in my blog analysis, that it shifts the progression into the realm of the strange and ethereal. In terms of function, V/V is a form of subdominant. And tonic-subdominant-tonic progressions are common enough. This one just gives us a tinge of the strange to suggest something magical.

Besides, it's not a totally incoherent progression. After all, V7/V can proceed to the cadential 6/4, which has the same notes as the tonic chord. So one could say that it's an unusual, even illogical, progression, but one that still results in smooth and understandable voice leading.

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But were it harmonized with a III the progression would sound very Williamseque imo....

The reason I came up with it was that V7/V-I isnt very logical, is it?

Indeed it's not very logical, and I think that's part of the point of using the progression - as I mention in my blog analysis, that it shifts the progression into the realm of the strange and ethereal. In terms of function, V/V is a form of subdominant. And tonic-subdominant-tonic progressions are common enough. This one just gives us a tinge of the strange to suggest something magical.

Besides, it's not a totally incoherent progression. After all, V7/V can proceed to the cadential 6/4, which has the same notes as the tonic chord. So one could say that it's an unusual, even illogical, progression, but one that still results in smooth and understandable voice leading.

The latter is certainly true. I think Williams can make any unusual progression sound smooth, it is really amazing.

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Its all in Bach - all the answers lay there. Get some Dover Edition Bach books and be amazed by the subtle modulations. it is 100% all in there.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I've been studying Raiders' "In the Jungle" (love that cue title) and it reminded me of how much Williams seems to love minor major 7th chords and various constructions based around it. He's exploited that dissonant sound in a lot of fun ways.

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Yeah, and whereas and John Barry and Bernard Herrmann tended to stick with regular mM7ths and mM9ths, Williams liked to flatten the sixth or raise the fourth. Sometimes even both.

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Yeah, and whereas and John Barry and Bernard Herrmann tended to stick with regular mM7ths and mM9ths, Williams liked to flatten the sixth or raise the fourth. Sometimes even both.

You mean that the flat sixth and/or raised fourth are added to the chord, right?

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Yeah, and whereas and John Barry and Bernard Herrmann tended to stick with regular mM7ths and mM9ths, Williams liked to flatten the sixth or raise the fourth. Sometimes even both.

You mean that the flat sixth and/or raised fourth are added to the chord, right?

Sometimes, sometimes not. I've seen a C-Eb-Ab-B plenty of times in Williams's oeuvre.

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Yeah, and whereas and John Barry and Bernard Herrmann tended to stick with regular mM7ths and mM9ths, Williams liked to flatten the sixth or raise the fourth. Sometimes even both.

You mean that the flat sixth and/or raised fourth are added to the chord, right?

Sometimes, sometimes not. I've seen a C-Eb-Ab-B plenty of times in Williams's oeuvre.

A mM7 has to have or at least imply the 5th as well, otherwise it's something else. Wouldn't you say that the sonority you cite, C-Eb-Ab-B, is more of a post-tonal chord since it's essentially one of Bartok's "major-minor" chords (0347)?

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Wouldn't you say that the sonority you cite, C-Eb-Ab-B, is more of a post-tonal chord since it's essentially one of Bartok's "major-minor" chords (0347)?

I would, but is there a more concise way to write that?

I guess you could call it an Ab (add #9) in first inversion.

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Wouldn't you say that the sonority you cite, C-Eb-Ab-B, is more of a post-tonal chord since it's essentially one of Bartok's "major-minor" chords (0347)?

I would, but is there a more concise way to write that?

I guess you could call it an Ab (add #9) in first inversion.

In jazz terms, I don't know, really. I agree Ab(add#9) is what it is, but then to get first inversion, you'd have to use the slash. I guess Abm/C would sum it up, but it looks rather odd.

As far as I know, there's no symbol for a combination of major and minor, say, C-Eb-E-G. And I can't recall seeing an add #9 symbol, though it does explain it. Let me know if you come across anything about this.

Edit: Just found this... maybe the add#9 is the best thing after all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Added_tone_chord

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In Latin sympbols, can't we use the symbol for the chord, whatever that is (I, IV, etc.) and the 9 for a superscript?

and accordingly in inversions?

Although there are instances, like in the chord you say (C-Eb-E-G), with the 9th and the 3rd standing next to each other, so that 9 feels more like an added note to the chord, than a genuine 9th.

* * *

and by the way, does anyone know how to we write latin symbols for added note chords?

Perscichetti's Harmony, doesn't show any symbols..

Maybe we just write the basic chord symbol, and we explain that it's an added note chord in the text?

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In Latin sympbols, can't we use the symbol for the chord, whatever that is (I, IV, etc.) and the 9 for a superscript?

and accordingly in inversions?

To use a Roman numeral would mean that there is a key to which the chord belongs. These chords tend to occur in John Williams' action cues, which are usually polytonal and/or atonal, so Roman numerals wouldn't really apply.

and by the way, does anyone know how to we write latin symbols for added note chords?

Perscichetti's Harmony, doesn't show any symbols..

Maybe we just write the basic chord symbol, and we explain that it's an added note chord in the text?

Jazz symbols and Roman numerals don't really mix. You wouldn't see IVadd2, for example. If you see that kind of chord, it's probably more of a jazz context anyway, so the jazz symbols would probably be better. Where exactly are you thinking of?

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well, added noted chords occur constantly in Williams themes too where we have a functional harmony (not just action cues).

That's why I asked..

(one example of the major-minor chord that comes in mind first, is the main title theme from Missouri Breaks.)

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well, added noted chords occur constantly in Williams themes too where we have a functional harmony (not just action cues).

That's why I asked..

(one example of the major-minor chord that comes in mind first, is the main title theme from Missouri Breaks.)

I guess what I'm saying is that Roman numerals tend not to be used for jazz and pop analysis. It's not so much a question of whether there is functional harmony or not, but a question of style. The constant altered notes in jazz run against the idea of a single key. And both jazz and pop use a lot of modes rather than scales, so Roman numerals don't really apply.

I mean, let's face it - Roman numerals were invented to describe music in a single key and without much chromaticism beyond secondary dominants.

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I'm talking in a theme-level, which most of the times is in one key..

well, since I have to do with symphonic film score (which is not atonal), I use the Roman numerals. It may have lots of jazz chords, but it isn't jazz and it isn't pop.

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well, since I have to do with symphonic film score (which is not atonal), I use the Roman numerals.

Then you're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

ok Prometheus, so if you were writing an academic article and had to analyse the harmony in Williams' music (or other symphonic type film music and not in action sections and such stuff, but in themes), what symbols would you use?

Didn't you yourself use Roman Numerals in the Island theme from JP? ;)

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well, since I have to do with symphonic film score (which is not atonal), I use the Roman numerals.

Then you're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

ok Prometheus, so if you were writing an academic article and had to analyse the harmony in Williams' music (or other symphonic type film music), what symbols would you use?

Didn't you yourself used Roman Numerals in the Island theme from JP? ;)

The Island theme is based on triads and seventh chords, so Roman numerals work there. The theme from Missouri Breaks is a blues piece, so probably jazz symbols are more appropriate there.

Since Williams composes in several different styles, there's no one-size-fits-all kind of analysis that will really work. That said, since you're looking only at themes, there is a strong tendency to have more classical-based harmonies, so Roman numerals probably work in most of them.

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  • 1 year later...

Minor and major chords on the raised 4th note of the scale

Just wanted to ask something:

There are quite a few times that we see the chord #iv in Williams themes.. (or bv).(usually in minor). (eg. in Ark theme, Jabba theme, Emperor theme, forest theme from E.T.)

This chord would be a fa#-la-do# in c minor, and would usually follow a tonic, creating the tritone between the roots of the chords.

(oh, i see we talked on page 1 in the heartbeeps theme, but there it was more of a passing chord as we concluded)

I've searched in 4-5 harmony books but can't find in what group this chord would belong.

In Aldwell's Harmony it says:

The three types of mixture produce triads on every note of the chromatic
scale except #4 (or b5). #4 does not occur naturally in major or minor keys, so
it cannot be the root of a chord produced by mixture

So, is it just a chord borrowed from a specific scale?

Also, at this point I am until now (trying to group all the harmonic events in Williams' themes and have reached 32 films starting from Jaws), I've encountered a major #IV in Short Round's theme in the connection I - #IV. (actually it is written as a bV: D major - Ab major).

And another one in Tink's theme preceding a V in the connection i-VI-#IV-V (in Bb minor) (4th system in the photo below)

(but ok, maybe in this second instance we could say it's an appogiatura chord of the dominant?)

MN0025859.gif

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Minor and major chords on the raised 4th note of the scale

Just wanted to ask something:

There are quite a few times that we see the chord #iv in Williams themes.. (or bv).(usually in minor). (eg. in Ark theme, Jabba theme, Emperor theme, forest theme from E.T.)

All these themes make use of minor chords as their basic premise, so it's probably best to look at ways of understanding themes like these as composed of strings of chords rather than deriving from any particular scale.

An article just appeared this year in the Oxford Handbook of Film Music Studies on transformational theory and film music analysis by Scott Murphy. I highly recommend it. It lays out a way of describing transformations of one chord into another rather than referring to a scale. And the theory there would fit these themes like a glove. Check it out!

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Thanks, I'll see into it.

I already have an article of Murphy:

The Major Tritone Progression in Recent Hollywood Science Fiction Films

But there, he examines major chords, like in the Short Round's example i mentioned.

it's just that I didn't know where to put them.

eg. i will have paragraphs for major-minor mixture, chords borrowed from modes, etc. etc.

Maybe I'll include these in "other chromatic chords" along with the vi in minor.

Ludwig do you by any chance have this book?

http://www.equinoxpub.com/journals/index.php/books/issue/view/BOOK-370

I wanted to ask if chapters 6 and 10 are musicological.

Chapter 8 seems like one.

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Thanks, I'll see into it.

I already have an article of Murphy:

The Major Tritone Progression in Recent Hollywood Science Fiction Films

The chapter I cited is like this, only comprehensive. In other words, he mentions every possible two-chord progression between major and minor triads.

Ludwig do you by any chance have this book?

http://www.equinoxpub.com/journals/index.php/books/issue/view/BOOK-370

I wanted to ask if chapters 6 and 10 are musicological.

Chapter 8 seems like one.

I don't have this, but here is the abstract for chapter 6:

The debt of fantasy film to German Romanticism is particularly clear in the case of Superman: The movie (Donner, 1978), a film whose narrative and visual symbolism, though ostensibly the very image of American 20th-century self-identity, nonetheless appears to allude to 19th-century concerns. In its religious allegory, its concerns with origins, and its overt nationalistic tendencies, Superman seems to assert its status as 20th-century American myth in ways similar to Germanic intellectual and artistic output of the previous century; moreover, nowhere is this debt clearer than in John Williams's score. This essay explores the mythic elements back to Friedrich Schelling's and Friedrich Schlegel's call for a new mythology in the years around 1800. It draws attention to the ways in which the opening of John Williams's score appears to allude to Brucknerian symphonic models of absolute music, and in so doing, partakes of these influential ideological currents. By invoking Umberto Eco's discussion of the comic book's temporally paradoxical—oneiric climate, the continuing importance of Williams's Superman themes for the status of the film franchise as mythic narrative is addressed.

Seems like music-historical commentary on the Superman score, rather than something more music theory oriented, though I can't be sure.

Here's the one for chapter 10:

Examines the use of traditional musical codes for the dramatic signification of magic in the first five Harry Potter films (2001–05), including the application of music to magical events in the narrative, the use of instruments as signifiers of the fantastic, and the use of musical elements—melodic, rhythmic, harmonic—to evoke the supernatural. Additionally, the use of the Harry Potter main theme, Hedwig's theme, is explored as a specific example of the changes occurring in the films as a whole; and it is demonstrated how the direct relationship between music and magical events in the first two films is complicated and disrupted in the subsequent three. The different approaches to the film scoring by John Williams and Patrick Doyle are an essential aspect of how the idea and importance of magic within the narrative shifts over the course of the series.

Though this seems more music-theoretical, my guess is that's not its main focus. The author (Jamie Webster) wrote a dissertation five years ago on the Harry Potter films that seems to be more about perception of the changing narrative through the music. There probably isn't the kind of detail you're looking for.

Chapter 8, now that's a different story. Murphy's work is on music theory.

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Is anyone here familiar with Shoenberg's Theory of Harmony?

I'm trying to understand something and I feel ....

My question is in chapter "chords derived from church modes".

How can eg. a re-fa#-la in C, be a Mixolydian chord and a sol-sib-re a lydian chord?

I can't understand his way of thinking!! :blink:

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Is anyone here familiar with Shoenberg's Theory of Harmony?

I'm trying to understand something and I feel ....

My question is in chapter "chords derived from church modes".

How can eg. a re-fa#-la in C, be a Mixolydian chord and a sol-sib-re a lydian chord?

I can't understand his way of thinking!! :blink:

It's not worth any explanation. It's obsolete and useless theory.

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Is anyone here familiar with Shoenberg's Theory of Harmony?

I'm trying to understand something and I feel ....

My question is in chapter "chords derived from church modes".

How can eg. a re-fa#-la in C, be a Mixolydian chord and a sol-sib-re a lydian chord?

I can't understand his way of thinking!! :blink:

It's not worth any explanation. It's obsolete and useless theory.

oh, I see..

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It's obsolete as far as analysis but in my experience irreplaceable as far as improving the way one thinks about composition.

I'm talking about the chapter filmmusic is citing.Schoenberg says that the Lydian mode can include Bb and Mixolydian can include F# as "diatonic" notes, the latter because F# is often used as the raised leading tone, and the former, well, he doesn't say why but no doubt it's because Bb is often used to correct the tritone. Then he allows these notes to be imported into C major for whatever reason... ???

As I say, it's a big waste of time to wrap one's head around this because it's not accepted theory, in fact it's just the opposite. Even his explanation of harmony is outdated. There are much better ideas in modern-day textbooks.

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well, is the "Chords borrowed from modes" an accepted explanation generally?

because i will dedicate a whole chapter on this.

and i don't want to generalize these which are very frequent on Williams, under "mixture chords".

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Yes, I'd say 'chords borrowed from modes' or 'modal mixture' are acceptable terns. I'd use these for things like #II (Lydian), iv (Aeolian), bII (Phygrian) or v (Mixolydian).

 

You can hear a Mixolydian minor dominant in Zimmer's AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 2 theme, along with a bVII.

 

 

E, Bm, Dsus2, E

 

This kind of thing is inherent in blues and pop.

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Yes, I'd say 'chords borrowed from modes' or 'modal mixture' are acceptable terns. I'd use these for things like #II (Lydian), iv (Aeolian), bII (Phygrian) or v (Mixolydian).

bVII mixolydian is used very often too...

I'd say this and the bII phrygian are the most often.

It's that I rarely find a such kind of chapter in harmony books..

I found it only in Schoenberg and in some dissertations..

It seems many theorists don't want to explain these chords that way.. as borrowed from modes..

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Yes, I'd say 'chords borrowed from modes' or 'modal mixture' are acceptable terns. I'd use these for things like #II (Lydian), iv (Aeolian), bII (Phygrian) or v (Mixolydian).

bVII mixolydian is used very often too...

I'd say this and the bII phrygian are the most often.

Exactly. BTW, the v isn't just limited to pop - it's all over Bach's chorales.

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Yes, I'd say 'chords borrowed from modes' or 'modal mixture' are acceptable terns. I'd use these for things like #II (Lydian), iv (Aeolian), bII (Phygrian) or v (Mixolydian).

bVII mixolydian is used very often too...

I'd say this and the bII phrygian are the most often.

It's that I rarely find a such kind of chapter in harmony books..

I found it only in Schoenberg and in some dissertations..

It seems many theorists don't want to explain these chords that way.. as borrowed from modes..

Have a look at some modern textbooks. Kostka's Materials and Techniques of Post-Tonal Music has all the modes and a number of other scales. And it's still being taught everywhere, so widely accepted.

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Yes, I'd say 'chords borrowed from modes' or 'modal mixture' are acceptable terns. I'd use these for things like #II (Lydian), iv (Aeolian), bII (Phygrian) or v (Mixolydian).

bVII mixolydian is used very often too...

I'd say this and the bII phrygian are the most often.

It's that I rarely find a such kind of chapter in harmony books..

I found it only in Schoenberg and in some dissertations..

It seems many theorists don't want to explain these chords that way.. as borrowed from modes..

Have a look at some modern textbooks. Kostka's Materials and Techniques of Post-Tonal Music has all the modes and a number of other scales. And it's still being taught everywhere, so widely accepted.

I have Kostka's Tonal Harmony.

It mentions the modes, but he doesn't explain chords as borrowed from modes.

And would this book on post-tonal music be useful on analysing tonal music?

edit: Oh, i see I have his Materials and Techniques of 20th century music, so maybe the book you mentioned is a reworked version of this one..

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I have Kostka's Tonal Harmony.

It mentions the modes, but he doesn't explain chords as borrowed from modes.

And would this book on post-tonal music be useful on analysing tonal music?

edit: Oh, i see I have his Materials and Techniques of 20th century music, so maybe the book you mentioned is a reworked version of this one..

Maybe. It's not his Tonal Harmony. Thar's even less useful than Schoenberg. The post-tonal one is one of the few that gives any space to polytonality, parallelism, timbral music, electronic music, and chance music. Even jazz and pop influences make it in there. An appriopriately varied mix for 20th-century music.

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hat do you make of the harmony behind the SPIDER-MAN cue Ludwig (despite it being a bit of a Copeland lift)?

I think you have it plotted out. Maybe there's a C# in the Dsus2? It sounds crunchier than just a sus2.

Or were you asking for associations with other music?

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hat do you make of the harmony behind the SPIDER-MAN cue Ludwig (despite it being a bit of a Copeland lift)?

I think you have it plotted out. Maybe there's a C# in the Dsus2? It sounds crunchier than just a sus2.

I know, I just see that an appoggiatura. Part of the melody but not the chord.

Or were you asking for associations with other music?

That too.

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Or were you asking for associations with other music?

That too.

I think you've spotted the main influence - Copland. Specifically the Fanfare for the Common Man. The Spidey cue is Mixolydian, though. Kind of unusual for a superhero, isn't it? Do you think it's just an "American" type of sound with the Copland influence, or perhaps something more specific in terms of a film association? Some kind of half-hearted cowboy progression? I'm clutching at straws here...

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the Kostka book is " Materials and Techniques of Twentieth Century Music " ISBN 0-13-924077-2.......Well worth having . A good companion to Persichetti

T

yes, i'd say that of all the books I love Persichetti's.

Very good structure, and easy to follow with concise comments.

If it also had Roman numerals in the analysis of the examples (where apllicable) and not just presenting them , it would be PERFECT!

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