Can we expect a 2nd Symphonic Film Music Renaissance?

[Brónach 1,301]

Why is it that "we can only imagine what could have been" in the case of Pirates, but I find "meh" reactions in the case of Captain America?

[Ollie 1,059]

Probably because his last few scores haven't been up to the same standards as his early 2000 scores, according to some.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Why is it that "we can only imagine what could have been" in the case of Pirates, but I find "meh" reactions in the case of Captain America?

Because the person saying "we can only imagine" is not the same person criticising the choice of Silvestri for Cap.

Silvestri composed only a few demos for POTC. That's it.

Has anyone heard Silvestri's demos?

[Ollie 1,059]

I haven't heard anything and I believe there was an interview with Silvestri and he mentions throwing them away / not gonna hear them in another score.

[filmmusic 1,822]

What about the movies that got traditional symphonic scores that didn't deserve them, for which songs or dreck would have been more appropriate? Nobody ever makes that argument.

I think Forrest Gump dropped the ball by adding score. It should have been wall-to-wall songs like American Graffitti. Such a bloody disappointment.

Well, I'm such a fan of traditional symphonic score that i would put it to literally every movie out there.. Even social network. Hehe!

someone may say, that it wouldn't fit, but as long as films like Accidental tourist , presumed innocent, Sleepers etc. had an orchestra score (with some synths) that fit, then it surely could fit to Social Network too and such movies..

[Kevin 22]

I haven't heard anything and I believe there was an interview with Silvestri and he mentions throwing them away / not gonna hear them in another score.

That might be true, but I suspect that if you listen to The Mummy Returns, you will get a pretty good indication of what his POTC score would have sounded like. It probably would have pushed the cheese out a little too far.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I haven't heard anything and I believe there was an interview with Silvestri and he mentions throwing them away / not gonna hear them in another score.

That might be true, but I suspect that if you listen to The Mummy Returns, you will get a pretty good indication of what his POTC score would have sounded like. It probably would have pushed the cheese out a little too far.

Nothing like Badelt and Zimmers' then.

[Ollie 1,059]

Well if his Mummy Returns was any indication then I'm even more sad that he didn't score them.

What a fun musical ride it would have been,,,,,,,,

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Zimmer has a far more original voice the Gia does.

I expect better from you.

Stefan is not wrong. But original doesn't necessarily mean good.

[Delorean90 42]

My biggest beef with the POTC score is that its synthestra/faux-synthestra approach simply doesn't give it the punch it needs/deserves. A prime example is the scene where Will and Jack make their escape from the bay--the thematic statement is just so weak and underwhelming there for the moment that it is.

In broader terms, though, while a more contemporaneous score can be effective in the right films, I can't think of a single case where a narrative film would be HURT by a tasteful, carefully-constructed orchestral score. It just has an effect unhindered by the passage of time--that's why it's still used.

[Thor 7,451]

I sometimes wonder....is there anyone here who listens to ANYTHING other than orchestral film music?

[TownerFan 4,983]

I sometimes wonder....is there anyone here who listens to ANYTHING other than orchestral film music?

Well, this is a John Williams' appreciation website, so it's not exactly strange that the majority here tends to listen more to orchestral film music than other genres.

But a preference toward this styling doesn't automatically mean that people have ears full of earwax and that they're unable to appreciate other kind of genres, or styles.

Or, to put it even more straight, a dislike for the current trend of MV-styled film scores is not a sign that people are close-minded toward different approaches to film music.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,488]

I haven't heard anything and I believe there was an interview with Silvestri and he mentions throwing them away / not gonna hear them in another score.

I feel really sad and upset at reading this. I'm not sad at what you have said, Mark; I just can't believe that composer as well-loved and as competent as Silvestri would arbitrarily trash his work like that. Imagine if Alex North had trashed his score for "2001"; we would never have gotten to hear all that brilliant music. A part of me hopes that he will, in some way, re-work these demos in to another score, a-la North, and Barry, but for the moment...

I sometimes wonder....is there anyone here who listens to ANYTHING other than orchestral film music?

Could you explain what you mean by "orchestral", Thor? I hope that that doesn't sound as stupid as it might read, because I listen to a lot of electronic scores, that are, despite being generated on synthesizers, orchestral in nature, if not execution ("Witness", "Runaway").

Also, do you mean "traditional" scores, the likes of which Williams, Goldsmith, et. al. do so well, and not so much the works of North, Rosenman, Glass, Nyman, etc?

I hope that I'm not sounding too silly; it's just that the word "orchestral" can mean different things to different people.

[Thor 7,451]

I know. It was more a rhetorical question. I've been around here long enough to notice a prevalent antipathy towards things that aren't conventional, orchestral music in the neo-romantic tradition. Whether it's bashing Zimmer or THE SOCIAL NETWORK's Oscar win or anything that is more alternative in sound. It's not something new, though, because it's the same thing over at FSM. It's just something I've never really been able to understand.

[filmmusic 1,822]

I sometimes wonder....is there anyone here who listens to ANYTHING other than orchestral film music?

Well, if we listened more to other music than orchestral, we would be registered in an electronic-alternative music forum and talk there, wouldn't we?

[Thor 7,451]

Well, I'd hope that even though we are fans of John Williams' music, we're open to and in fact, LIKE other music as well.

I can only speak for myself, but as much as I love Williams, I would drive myself crazy if I only could listen to his stuff (and its ilk). I need my electronic music of various kinds, classical, goth metal, art pop, prog rock, contemporary musicals, New Wave, jazz, rock'n'roll and so on and so forth.

Same with movies too. Would be incredibly boring to watch if there was only one particular type of score (the neo-romantic, symphonic kind) accompanying them all.

Diversity is the spice of life!

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I'm listening to scores less and less nowadays; I'm too involved in writing my own music, seeing local bands and discovering entire genres of music I missed out on because of my narrow-minded taste in music as a teen. I'm still passionate about scores though, and do ultimately see myself writing music for media (be it film, television, video games or other). But I've accepted that at least in the next decade "traditional" orchestral scores will die out. And I'm actually glad for that, as every day I grow more tired of the generic "Hollywood" score sound (whether it be the empty but admittedly skillful sounds of Debney/Silvestri/Elfman et al, or the obnoxious anthems of the RC crew).

My appreciation for Zimmer as a film composer has increased tremendously in the last few years, simply because I see him as the only "big" composer who regularly tries new things and experiments with sounds, regardless of people's opinion of the result. I'm far less enthusiastic about the people who copy him, but that's another topic.

Composers like Desplat, Giacchino and Powell still hold my attention because they seem to have a gift of craftsmanship when it comes to the orchestra, but their kind are few and far between. Of course, I will always listen to Williams' output; I am on this site for a reason. But there's not much left to say about him except that - for me - the greatest thing he has done in the last 20 years is no single score, but the tangible change and development in his style that has opened my mind to the progression and evolution of music, beyond what I'd normally want to hear. For such a conservative old fogey he sure has changed a lot. Can't say the same for such chaps as Horner or Silvestri.

The end of the sweeping orchestral score will come soon. And hopefully it will come back, but led by composers with fresh sounds and ideas; risk takers, and visionaries.

And Zombie Williams.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

You'd really lump in Elfman and Silvestri with Debney?

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Considering their respective output in the last decade or so, yes. Neither of them have substantially evolved their style. The only thing Elman did in the last ten years that I regularly listen to is his Serenada Schizophrana.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

It's probably wise of you to seek out other expressions that suit your fancy - perhaps more traditional symphonic things like that of Desplat, Rombi, Talgorn, Giacchino, Horner etc, and let MV expressions be MV expressions. They're not going to go away. Besides, it's a very diverse sound by now, as there are both good and bad versions.

I probably add Arnold to that list of so called 'symphonic' composers, along with Newton Howard and Silvestri. But to be frank, I don't like either camp. Both are mind-numbingly conservative in their aesthetics, approach and imagination.

And we talk about these composers have 'symphonic' symphonic sensibilities, we mean it in a very loose, diluted, sense. They're the closest surrogate we've got today, but my God are they a world apart.

They're are poor, circumscribed, and highly clichéd orchestrators for the most part (and I mean 'orchestrator' as in knowing how to write well for an orchestra, not necessarily doing the full 32 stave scores yourself), which is a natural consequence of composing on a MIDI keyboard, and have only the most basic training in composition, harmony and counterpoint.

And even worse, they're completely lacking in soul, and life experience. Like Celine bloody Dion, she has good technical ability, but has the soul of a squashed ant.

In my opinion, the world of film scores is being increasingly homogenised. Polarised more like it, with these two camps being the only alternatives. The industry is now as lacking in variety as we were in the 'Golden Age' of film scores. We've regressed, as if the Silver Age never happened.

[Quintus 5,399]

It's probably wise of you to seek out other expressions that suit your fancy - perhaps more traditional symphonic things like that of Desplat, Rombi, Talgorn, Giacchino, Horner etc, and let MV expressions be MV expressions. They're not going to go away. Besides, it's a very diverse sound by now, as there are both good and bad versions.

I probably add Arnold to that list of so called 'symphonic' composers, along with Newton Howard and Silvestri. But to be frank, I don't like either camp. Both are mind-numbingly conservative in their aesthetics, approach and imagination.

And we talk about these composers have 'symphonic' symphonic sensibilities, we mean it in a very loose, diluted, sense. They're the closest surrogate we've got today, but my God are they a world apart.

They're are poor, circumscribed, and highly clichéd orchestrators for the most part (and I mean 'orchestrator' as in knowing how to write well for an orchestra, not necessarily doing the full 32 stave scores yourself)

Well, everyone has to start somewhere, don't they?

No offence, but instead of being a dismissive snob, might it not be more constructive to speak of hardworking, traditionally driven composers in a more objective, positive manner? Because as you are now, I'd say your view is part of the problem, not the solution.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Well, everyone has to start somewhere, don't they?

I'd agree, if they were showing any signs of improvement, or were at the beginning of their careers.

No offence, but instead of being a dismissive snob, might it not be more constructive to speak of hardworking, traditionally driven composers in a more objective, positive manner?

So you want me to sugarcoat my opinions, and pretend that everything's nice and dandy, when I clearly think it's not?

I'm sorry Quint, but that's BS.

And I don't give points for effort. It's not enough to simply try. You gotta live to up your oaths as a 'hard working, traditionally driven composer.'

[Charlie Brigden 7]

So you want me to sugar coat my opinions, and pretend that everything's nice and dandy, when I clearly think it's not?

Yes please.

[Quintus 5,399]

Well, everyone has to start somewhere, don't they?

I'd agree, if they were showing any signs of improvement, or were at the beginning of their careers.

No offence, but instead of being a dismissive snob, might it not be more constructive to speak of hardworking, traditionally driven composers in a more objective, positive manner?

So you want me to sugarcoat my opinions, and pretend that everything's nice and dandy, when I clearly think it's not?

I'm sorry Quint, but that's BS.

And I don't give points for effort. It's not enough to try.

Ah, fuck it.

There's nowt as impotent as armchair professionals.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Well, everyone has to start somewhere, don't they?

I'd agree, if they were showing any signs of improvement, or were at the beginning of their careers.

No offence, but instead of being a dismissive snob, might it not be more constructive to speak of hardworking, traditionally driven composers in a more objective, positive manner?

So you want me to sugarcoat my opinions, and pretend that everything's nice and dandy, when I clearly think it's not?

I'm sorry Quint, but that's BS.

And I don't give points for effort. It's not enough to try.

Ah, fuck it.

There's nowt as impotent as armchair professionals.

I'm a composer and multi-instrumentalist, not some musicologist cunt.

I'm not all talk.

So you want me to sugar coat my opinions, and pretend that everything's nice and dandy, when I clearly think it's not?

Yes please.

You get the muzzle, Quint can call in the men in the white coats.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

If it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck.

I'm not a duck either, ducky.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the fans in peace!

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the fans in peace!

But I am fan, of maestro John Williams. I just don't like any of your pseudo-symphonic composers.

[Quintus 5,399]

Well, everyone has to start somewhere, don't they?

I'd agree, if they were showing any signs of improvement, or were at the beginning of their careers.

No offence, but instead of being a dismissive snob, might it not be more constructive to speak of hardworking, traditionally driven composers in a more objective, positive manner?

So you want me to sugarcoat my opinions, and pretend that everything's nice and dandy, when I clearly think it's not?

I'm sorry Quint, but that's BS.

And I don't give points for effort. It's not enough to try.

Ah, fuck it.

There's nowt as impotent as armchair professionals.

I'm a composer and multi-instrumentalist, not some musicologist cunt.

Am is sensing a massive inferiority complex amongst peers, one of the 'chip on one's shoulder' variety? I wonder if you're just as charming with them as you are here.

But anyway, I'll be sure to keep an eye out for your next masterpiece and I'll check the night horizon once in a while for your rising star. Can't be long now

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Well, everyone has to start somewhere, don't they?

I'd agree, if they were showing any signs of improvement, or were at the beginning of their careers.

No offence, but instead of being a dismissive snob, might it not be more constructive to speak of hardworking, traditionally driven composers in a more objective, positive manner?

So you want me to sugarcoat my opinions, and pretend that everything's nice and dandy, when I clearly think it's not?

I'm sorry Quint, but that's BS.

And I don't give points for effort. It's not enough to try.

Ah, fuck it.

There's nowt as impotent as armchair professionals.

I'm a composer and multi-instrumentalist, not some musicologist cunt.

Am is sensing a massive inferiority complex amongst peers, one of the 'chip on one's shoulder' variety? I wonder if you're just as charming with them as you are here.

But anyway, I'll be sure to keep an eye out for your next masterpiece and I'll check the night horizon once in a while for your rising star. Can't be long now

I'm 20 years old, so hopefully.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

A child! that explains everything.....

Go and play.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

A child! that explains everything.....

Go and play.

I'll play with my cock instead.

Good day.

[Quintus 5,399]

He's twenty?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I'll return here in 20 years. I'm a man of my word!

[A24 4,323]

Like Celine bloody Dion, she has good technical ability, but has the soul of a squashed ant.

[Quintus 5,399]

Look, you have the support of Cremers!

That could be comedy gold in itself!

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Like Celine bloody Dion, she has good technical ability, but has the soul of a squashed ant.

I only accept female groupies. Sorry mate.

[Quintus 5,399]

Ha ha ha!

[A24 4,323]

Like Celine bloody Dion, she has good technical ability, but has the soul of a squashed ant.

I only accept female groupies. Sorry mate.

bowdown

[Quintus 5,399]

Heh heh, jovial shit goin' down on here today.

It's a great time to be alive.

[Ollie 1,059]

I'd suggest we get back on topic here.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Yeah, sorry about that.

In short no, I don't want another Symphony Music Renaissance just yet. It'll come eventually, for sure. But right now what the industry needs is to be shaken up, not to regress. It's become very stagnant and same-y, to my ears. We need another Silver Age. Something progressive, not reactionary.

In other words, a next generation of rebels. Contemporary equivalents of Alex North, Leonard Rosenman, Jerry Goldsmith Lalo Schifrin, John Barry and David Shire.

[Ollie 1,059]

Good point.

However part of me wonders if this recent move towards music being treated more as sound and effects is the next Renaissance? It's been done before but it seems like it's starting to become more prominent.

[steb74 53]

In other words, a next generation of rebels. Contemporary equivalents of Alex North, Leonard Rosenman, Jerry Goldsmith Lalo Schifrin, John Barry and David Shire.

Barry is my second fav film composer, so I'm interested in how you find him rebellious, his attitude, his music, both? .........something else?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

The convergence between sound design and score is a very interesting development, but with the prominence of sample libraries within the industry, it's at risk of becoming a commendatory. i.e. Steve Jablonsky's hackery. Something easily attainable through practically 'one button does all' software.

In other words, a next generation of rebels. Contemporary equivalents of Alex North, Leonard Rosenman, Jerry Goldsmith Lalo Schifrin, John Barry and David Shire.

Barry is my second fav film composer, so I'm interested in how you find him rebellious, his attitude, his music, both? .........something else?

Both, but I'm really talking about his music from the 60s, here. He was THE British film composer, who made way for the likes of Richard Rodney-Bennett, Frank Cordell and John Addison, brought a flamboyant Kenton-esque jazz and rock n roll sound to the world of film music, was one of the pioneers of studio effects such as compression and reverb, and was one of the earliest to extensively use synthesisers (in The Lion In Winter and OHMSS).

[steb74 53]

Both, but I'm really talking about his music from the 60s, here. He was THE British film composer, who made way for the likes of Richard Rodney-Bennett, Frank Cordell and John Addison, brought a flamboyant Kenton-esque jazz and rock n roll sound to the world of film music, was one of the pioneers of studio effects such as compression and reverb, and was one of the earliest to extensively use synthesisers (in The Lion In Winter and OHMSS).

Oh, I agree with all that and understand his impact in the UK, I'm from there .....I just don't really see any of that or feel it as rebellious as such.

Certainly with his firm stance and attitude towards directors and producers though, by not feeling the need to bow to their every whim.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Both, but I'm really talking about his music from the 60s, here. He was THE British film composer, who made way for the likes of Richard Rodney-Bennett, Frank Cordell and John Addison, brought a flamboyant Kenton-esque jazz and rock n roll sound to the world of film music, was one of the pioneers of studio effects such as compression and reverb, and was one of the earliest to extensively use synthesisers (in The Lion In Winter and OHMSS).

Oh, I agree with all that and understand his impact in the UK, I'm from there .....I just don't really see any of that or feel it as rebellious as such.

Certainly with his firm stance and attitude towards directors and producers though, by not feeling the need to bow to their every whim.

Well, his style was never virtoisic or avant garde in the vein of North or Rosenman, in fact it tended to pretty simplistic, in the best sense of the word. It's just he gave a kick up the rear to the industry, much like North and co, especially with something like The Lion In Winter. An approach to the genre never heard before, and still sounds fresh. Completely different to Rosza, Walton, and Korngold, which is one of the reasons why the Academy gave him the award.

And that's to say nothing of his use of an eerie small ensemble in Seance on a Wet Afternoon, the hipness of The Knack, the gloomy Gil Evans-meets-The Iron Curtain atmosphere of The Ipcress File and The Quiller Memorandum, or the sheer red blooded awesomeness of Bond scores like Goldfinger, Thunderball and OHMSS.

[Ollie 1,059]

The convergence between sound design and score is a very interesting development, but with the prominence of sample libraries within the industry, it's at risk of becoming a commendatory. i.e. Steve Jablonsky's hackery. Something easily attainable through practically 'one button does all' software.

That's what worries me.

[steb74 53]

.......or the sheer red blooded awesomeness of Bond scores like Goldfinger, Thunderball and OHMSS.

Absolutely, it's one of the reasons I find the score to Inception, one of the worst and most obnoxious in years, or ever heard in fact.

It's like a wannabe Barry score without the grace and class ....nothing more than junior testosterone.