Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 I've been thinking about this for a while and it hasn't been easy trying to articulate it.It's a footprint of Williams that hasn't been exploited much by those who pastiche his sound (Mike Verta, Joel McNeely, Mark Grisey etc.). Don Davis and Giacchino have probably come the closest in their JP scores.Basically it's melodies that outline a minor 6/9 chord, either through passing tones, appoggiaturas or actual chord tones. It's often associated with either military/government themes, or pensive underscore.A prominent but early example is the main fanfaric idea from THE POSEIDON ADVENTURE. 0:12I'm talking about the F-G-Ab-D-C line. Another occurrence is in the Government Theme from CE3K. 0:28. Together with the contrapuntal, quasi-imitative bassline, a similar thing occurs.A few more examples. 0:35 - The low horn line framed by the 1st inversion F minor triad below and a C major triad above. 1:19 - Projected vertically as a rootless m6/9 in the strings 0:36 0:13 7:31 - We have both a subdominant minor 6th plus a tonic minor 6th (Bbm--although at this point it should probably be thought of as the subdominant of the dominant--F--since it resolves to half cadence on C)7:50 - A pyramid-like growth around Bbm on an F bass, emphases the the ninth and major sixth8:29 - Variation on the theme from the arrival at the visitor centre--the fifth, tonic and ninth are sustained above. 1:02 and 1:19https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nIB8symxiE2:22 and 2:31I haven't been able to find it in much concert music, but one piece that stands out is Toru Takemitsu's Litany. You'll also hear pre-echoes of PRESUMED INNOCENT.Anyone know what I'm getting at? I know I'm not being a clear as I normally with this kind of subject matter, but it's such a vague thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Ok, I hear it...What's your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,019 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 You're right, that's a particular harmonic framework that he seems to explore frequently in these sorts of passages. Never thought about that before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted June 13, 2015 Author Share Posted June 13, 2015 My point is, "isn't it bloody awesome?"Though I'm really asking questions, not making any kind of point.A) How would one better describe this?B) Are there any other examples in the broader concert repertoire or Williams's own canon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Jerry Goldsmith uses a similar idea in Nicaragua! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,890 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 I love these kinds of threads - will sink my teeth into later but I see this as valuable analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted June 13, 2015 Author Share Posted June 13, 2015 Jerry Goldsmith uses a similar idea in Nicaragua! Nope. Sorry amigo.Here's another one, 0:00-14, 1:54-2:07 and 2:18-27. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ludwig 1,120 Posted June 13, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted June 13, 2015 It seems to me that a few different ideas are being conflated here and it's worth separating them out to understand them better.Yes, these passages all have a minor triad as their basis, but what's added to that triad is not always the same, nor is it always used in the same way. Some are essentially used as ornamented pedal points, others as part of functional progressions, others as passing sonorities, etc.Basically, I think it's safe to say that Williams has a huge penchant for minor chords in underscore, whether it contains added notes or not. There are many passages where there is nothing but minor triads used in parallel - the opening of E.T., the Ark theme, and so on. So there's something about that type of chord that elicits the sort of inconclusiveness that is so effective for underscore. Maybe it's that it's difficult for it to suggest a tonic, dominant, or subdominant without other functional chords around it, which as you mentioned occurs in Journey to the Island to make the chord a subdominant. But on its own, it can only sound like a tonic, and even then, only by a kind of insistence rather than by the surrounding chords. In other words, it's hard to get a sense of the chord's meaning, which is a great for underscore since it usually accompanies scenes where the narrative is driven forward - we don't know what will happen next, and this musical technique is an ideal match for that sort of feeling.As for its origins, this minor chord with added sixth, or more commonly known as the half-diminished seventh chord, was a staple of late-nineteenth-century music. Wagner's famous Tristan chord is precisely that, and the impact that opera and its famous chord had on music that followed was nothing short of phenomenal. You'll find it in many of those works from the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries that film composers have drawn on, pieces like Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Fawn, and Dukas' The Sorcerer's Apprentice, to name a couple of prominent examples.Williams sometimes uses the chord in its pure form, and other times he adds abrasive dissonances to it, and I'm not sure we would call them all half-diminshed chords but perhaps minor triads with added notes - forms of what I've called "bristling". I would separate out those that are functional from those that are non-functional, and those that are half-diminished chords from those that are minor triads, and those that have added notes from those that do not. As we've seen so many times before, Williams' sense of harmony is anything but simple, and I think allowing for these many categories allows its complexity to come through somewhat more.In short, I believe that the reason we find this in Williams is that he is ultimately rooted in the music around the turn of the twentieth century, but many of the more dissonant constructions might be seen as a fusion of this basically tonal technique with more atonal techniques. Another example of the "tonalization of atonality" I've also mentioned before in our many discussions on the forum. BLUMENKOHL, ChrisAfonso, Sharkissimo and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Jerry Goldsmith uses a similar idea in Nicaragua! Nope. Sorry amigo. Here's another one, 0:00-14, 1:54-2:07 and 2:18-27. I think my point wasn't clear! You're pattern hunting in someone else's music. You're gonna start seeing things that aren't necessarily related but seem related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted June 13, 2015 Author Share Posted June 13, 2015 It seems to me that a few different ideas are being conflated here and it's worth separating them out to understand them better.I realise that. I should have focused the opening post on passing dissonances, since that's what I had in mind when I thought of making the thread. After that it sort of snowballed. Apologies for not being clearer.In Peter Burt's book The Music of Toru Takemitsu he mentions the opening right hand piano line being derived from the Japanese In scale--one of the pentatonic scales.This happens to be the same collection that Williams tends to rely upon as passing tones in melodic figures over minor harmonies. Now, I'm not suggesting Williams has actually studied Japanese folk music to any great degree, and is incorporated these scales into his own language. No. It's just that by chance, he's working with a similar collection of pitches, probably because it sounds good to his ears. curlytoot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 This thread so far is getting to be a bit like observing bikes and going "this bike here has wheels with spokes on it! And so does this bike!" "Now I'm not saying that this bike maker studied the other bike maker's bike. But it's obvious that he thought it was sensible to make a bike wheel with spokes." I'm still hopeful something profound will emerge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted June 13, 2015 Author Share Posted June 13, 2015 To paraphrase Malcolm Tucker: come the fuck in and post something of musicological relevance, or fuck the fuck off'. Not Mr. Big 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,232 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Blume is not as dissimilar from the English twit as he would like to believe.Anyway, seems obvious to me that you're on to something and not at all reaching. Like how a person has habits of speech, composers have these little habits too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Sorry. I was a bit of a dick, Sharky.Anyways, I think this "habit" of John's simply results from the fact that he is writing film music for a Western pop audience. The melancholic nature it imparts to the underscore keeps the tension interesting and grounded in easily digestible drama. It'd also explain why you don't hear it as frequently in concert music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 To me it just sounds like Debussy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv56dZaMWTgvery nice and atmospheric :( ruff )But as it is so prevalent in impressionistic music, to me it doesn't scream williams. Which is maybe why the composers you mention, might not use it much. Preferring to stay focused on the Jazz, Americana, and other titbits Johnny has on his table.....t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,232 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 That is a great cue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Isn't it. And the rabble again ignores it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 tis specialt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnome in Plaid 219 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 I haven't been able to find it in much concert music, but one piece that stands out is Toru Takemitsu's Litany. I don't mean to derail the thread, but I've heard the first 15 or so seconds of that piece quoted almost verbatim somewhere in film music on, if I'm remembering correctly, a bass clarinet, but I can't for the life of me figure out where I heard it. Any help on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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