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Why are woodwinds in modern film scores a persecuted minority?


Sharkissimo

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Like I theorized in the other thread, I think a lot of it has to do with their relative lack of exposure compared to that of strings and brass, which have found their way into sometimes prominent roles in many different "genres" of popular music. They're still somewhat exclusive to "classical" music and so are ripe for trimming when one wants to avoid such associations.

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Well, as we discussed in the other thread, they're just the least familiar element of the orchestra to more mainstream masses. Strings, brass and percussion are littered through all forms of music, but woodwinds are often restricted to a few. And this may just have to do with how striking a colour it can be, that it draws more attention to the music, making it a more dynamic entity than what filmmakers might like.

And it may be as TGP says, they're still associated with the "stigma" of classical music, though I'm not sure how true that is.

I think it's a combination of filmmakers liking scores to play it more safe (sticking with familiar, less obvious string/brass writing) and the fact that more film scores are leaning towards the pop aesthetic, which isn't a realm where the woodwinds dominate.


It just takes someone with imagination and some guts to use them in a modern score. There's nothing innate to them that makes them old-fashioned, it's our associations with them.

Yeah. There's nothing old-fashioned about woodwinds. And I disagree with the idea that they "date" a score.

Just look at John Adams or other minimalists as an example of how cool you can make woodwinds sound.

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It's also just hard to know what to do with them beyond just doubling things up all over the place. They sort of require more complex textures than I'll bet many filmmakers are willing to allow.

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I don't necessarily agree. In the right hands, you can do some wonderful new things with them, just as you can with any other section. I'm sure you can create some very cool ambient textures with the winds.

But I agree that it might be more distinct a colour than filmmakers are willing to risk. They'd prefer safe strings or electronic drones, or whatever.

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There are some nice woodwind parts in Godzilla but Desplat is usually a great advocate for oppressed minorities.

Wait, wait, there's a llot of clarinet in Electro's theme.

Karol

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There are some nice woodwind parts in Godzilla but Desplat is usually a great advocate for oppressed minorities.

Wait, wait, there's a llot of clarinet in Electro's theme.

Karol

And Gareth Edwards comes across as a fan of older aesthetics. His narrative decisions have room for improvement but he shows a lot of technical promise.

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I'd say it boils down to two main reasons:

1. Studios see the RCP sound as profitable, and thus are only rarely willing to deviate from Zimmer action imitation on big-budget films (although Zimmer himself has written some excellent pieces that make great use of them).

2. Woodwinds have greater timbral changes over their range than other instruments, which means they require more finesse to use properly.

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I think the lack of "pop" penetration definitely has something to do with it. Woodwinds generally just don't have as much of a ballsy sound as, say, eight horns blaring over choppy string ostinati, which singlehandedly explains why they tend to be absent from certain types of scores, at least. Another factor may be cost. Keep in mind that every instrumentalist employed in the recording sessions costs the filmmakers more money. Strings, brass, and percussion still leave plenty of room for a variety of sounds and emotions.

This is all just speculation, of course. And I for one would love to see a resurgence of woodwinds...they can do some very lovely, powerful, interesting, tender, horrifying things, depending on how they're used.

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Giacchino uses woodwinds albeit in a way similar to Williams and Goldsmith.

I think the RCP style is congruent with the pop songs littered throughout a film. Casual audiences just don't care/ understand thematic structures in film music. They probably only think in terms of genre.

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According to the Digital Booklet, on INTERSTELLAR Zimmer had:

6 Flutes (2, 3 & 4 doubling on Piccolos, 4, 5 & 6 doubling on Alto Flutes)

4 Oboes (3 & 4 doubling on English Horns)

6 Clarinets (2 doubling on Eb Piccolo Clarinet, 3 & 4 doubling on Bass Clarinets with C extensions, 5 doubling on Eb Contrabass Clarinet and 6 doubling on Bb Contrabass Clarinet)

4 Bassoons (3 & 4 doubling on Contrabassoons)

That's an Alex North sized woodwind section!

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My favourite part of an orchestra. But I was a clarinet player, so I'm biased.

Bloody gorgeous set of instruments, the typical ones and all the others.


It's also just hard to know what to do with them beyond just doubling things up all over the place.

Boo!

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It's also just hard to know what to do with them beyond just doubling things up all over the place.

Boo!

Once again, I'm not implying that they can't do anything more than that. But that to do more than that is to be more compositionally complex than most filmmakers are comfortable with.

According to the Digital Booklet, on INTERSTELLAR Zimmer had:

6 Flutes (2, 3 & 4 doubling on Piccolos, 4, 5 & 6 doubling on Alto Flutes)

4 Oboes (3 & 4 doubling on English Horns)

6 Clarinets (2 doubling on Eb Piccolo Clarinet, 3 & 4 doubling on Bass Clarinets with C extensions, 5 doubling on Eb Contrabass Clarinet and 6 doubling on Bb Contrabass Clarinet)

4 Bassoons (3 & 4 doubling on Contrabassoons)

That's an Alex North sized woodwind section!

Frustrating that they don't list the sizes for the strings/brass though. I need complete instrumentation details.

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And I for one would love to see a resurgence of woodwinds...they can do some very lovely, powerful, interesting, tender, horrifying things, depending on how they're used.

I have a long-running dream of writing a score for an action film that's just a cleverly disguised bassoon concerto.

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I'm afraid I don't buy the premise of this thread. Plenty of woodwinds and prominent woodwind writing to go around these days. It just depends where you look. If you just judge by the latest big superhero blockbuster film from Hollywood, then no -- it's probably not easy to hear prominent woodwinds.

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I thought it was because they don't take the center stage in Zimmer's music, so others avoid it too. Today woodwinds are deemed too lyrical and they lack the cool factor of low brass and ostinato strings patterns.

Alex

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I thought it was because they don't take the center stage in Zimmer's music, so others avoid it too. Today woodwinds are deemed too lyrical and they lack the cool factor of low brass and ostinato strings patterns.

Alex

I think you're only talking about one part of the scene here. Again, the type of films you describe are not where you'll find these things.

Just from this year alone, there's some wonderful woodwind writing in -- for example -- NO GOD NO MASTER (Malo), SKUMRINGSLANDET (Rusten), A MILLION WAYS TO DIE IN THE WEST (McNeely), CANTINFLAS (Banos), CALVARY (Cassidy), FIELD OF LOST SHOES (Wiedmann), A NIGHTINGGALE FALLING (Stewart) and in a more experimental vein UNDER THE SKIN (Levi).

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So you are saying they are just as prominent in the teater as always? Are we talking solo writing or scary runs and textures?

Both, really. Anything you want, you can find it these days. It's only a question of knowing where to look (and looking outside the tried and true Hollywood trends and subgenres).

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Just from this year alone, there's some wonderful woodwind writing in -- for example -- NO GOD NO MASTER (Malo), SKUMRINGSLANDET (Rusten), A MILLION WAYS TO DIE IN THE WEST (McNeely), CANTINFLAS (Banos), CALVARY (Cassidy), FIELD OF LOST SHOES (Wiedmann), A NIGHTINGGALE FALLING (Stewart) and in a more experimental vein UNDER THE SKIN (Levi).

Not to forget even JNH gave them some things to do in MALEFICENT and even in NIGHTCRAWLER.

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So you are saying they are just as prominent in the teater as always? Are we talking solo writing or scary runs and textures?

Both, really. Anything you want, you can find it these days. It's only a question of knowing where to look (and looking outside the tried and true Hollywood trends and subgenres).

That's not my experience. I really think classical woodwinds like we know them from the '70s (jazz fusion, elevator music) and '80s (late romantic revival) have taken a step down and that they have been exchanged for the ethnic woodwinds. Sure, you may still find them if you search hard enough, but that kinda proves Sharky is right.

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Not really. What it proves is only that you're evaluating based on a very small sample of genres. Perhaps just one, in fact (contemporary, mainstream action films -- and even that has great woodwing writing occasionally, like the aforementioned MALEFICENT). It's an inductive method and a bit of a logical fallacy, IMO.

Woodwinds are alive and well, both as part of the orchestral idiom (or perhaps smaller ensembles) and as solo instruments. I don't see much difference between 'then' and 'now', to be honest.

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Composers have no time for complex orchestration anymore. Time is money, when you crunch the numbers you gotta sacrifice something, and that something is color as you battle against SFX. Brass and strings are kept as they work with the SFX. Not the woodwinds that for the exec suit are just color that is wasting their money.

Soundtracks are a business, let's never forget that.

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Not really. What it proves is only that you're evaluating based on a very small sample of genres. Perhaps just one, in fact (contemporary, mainstream action films -- and even that has great woodwing writing occasionally, like the aforementioned MALEFICENT). It's an inductive method and a bit of a logical fallacy, IMO.

Woodwinds are alive and well, both as part of the orchestral idiom (or perhaps smaller ensembles) and as solo instruments. I don't see much difference between 'then' and 'now', to be honest.

I think the debate is more about why woodwinds have become a minority in more mainstream settings, like bigger blockbuster/contemporary films because that's what reachest the largest audience. Even in fantasy flicks, virtuoso woodwind writing is quite rare (with Maleficent being an exception). The fact that you have to extensively explore less common niches just go to show that woodwind writing isn't as "alive and well" as you make it out to be.

In the past, woodwind was more common a colour across most mediums and genres. Now it's limited to only a few.

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I thought it was because they don't take the center stage in Zimmer's music, so others avoid it too. Today woodwinds are deemed too lyrical and they lack the cool factor of low brass and ostinato strings patterns.

Alex

I think you're only talking about one part of the scene here. Again, the type of films you describe are not where you'll find these things.

Just from this year alone, there's some wonderful woodwind writing in -- for example -- NO GOD NO MASTER (Malo), SKUMRINGSLANDET (Rusten), A MILLION WAYS TO DIE IN THE WEST (McNeely), CANTINFLAS (Banos), CALVARY (Cassidy), FIELD OF LOST SHOES (Wiedmann), A NIGHTINGGALE FALLING (Stewart) and in a more experimental vein UNDER THE SKIN (Levi).

Reaching for the Moon (Zarvos) too.

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Not really. What it proves is only that you're evaluating based on a very small sample of genres. Perhaps just one, in fact (contemporary, mainstream action films -- and even that has great woodwing writing occasionally, like the aforementioned MALEFICENT). It's an inductive method and a bit of a logical fallacy, IMO.

Woodwinds are alive and well, both as part of the orchestral idiom (or perhaps smaller ensembles) and as solo instruments. I don't see much difference between 'then' and 'now', to be honest.

I think the debate is more about why woodwinds have become a minority in more mainstream settings, like bigger blockbuster/contemporary films because that's what reachest the largest audience. Even in fantasy flicks, virtuoso woodwind writing is quite rare (with Maleficent being an exception). The fact that you have to extensively explore less common niches just go to show that woodwind writing isn't as "alive and well" as you make it out to be.

You don't have to 'extensively explore less common niches'. You just have to look outside one small fraction of the film scene. This is a point that seems to pass most people by. It's like you're standing inside a small box and complaining about how tiny it us, unaware of the big world outside.

Why on earth would you go on the search for woodwinds in TRANSFORMERS: AGE OF EXTINCTION?

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And the question is why shouldn't we? If Transformers was made the 80s, would it have been too much to expect woodwind writing? All the superhero films back then had them, why have the disappeared now? THAT's the question here. Why is there a prejudice against woodwind writing in these bigger films?

And this "small fraction" of the film scene happens to be the one that grosses the most and reaches out to the most people. So why has woodwind writing basically disappeared from this scene?

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A 100% of what the multiplexes play is not a "tiny fraction".

Thor, you always say there is no difference, whether it's Blade Runner or Body Of Lies. Or Alan Parsons' Mystery And Imagination or Gaudi. I simply see and hear way too much differences to believe that. Wearing top hats is no longer in fashion either so people are correct when they say the top hat is no longer a part of our street scene.

Finding an occasional oboe solo in experimental films, small independent films (do they even have the money for real musicians?) or student films is not the same.

So people don't agree that classical woodwinds have been replaced by ethnic woodwinds? Strange, because that's all I hear.

Alex

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Actually, if you go back to the list of films I provided earlier, you'll see that there are plenty of 'big films in multiplexes' from this year alone that have scores with plenty of fine woodwind writing -- whether solo or in context with a bigger ensemble. And that is ON TOP of all the smaller titles.

I maintain that I find it rather curious to stand in the middle of an RC-inspired action genre alone (which I think is what most of you are doing) and cry out for more pronounced woodwind writing. It would be like standing in a McDonald's store and cry out for more refined food in this world when there's a gourmet restaurant just across the street. All you have to do is walk outside.

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As you very well know, Thor has established some firm beliefs in ancient times that he clutches onto, one of them being that film scoring is alive and well any present time or hell be damned. You saw it coming.

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