Brian Eno Hates John Williams

[KK 3,307]

Doh! The nearest pool is an hour away!

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

P.S. This is a cool interview with two really innovative men in the world of music, John Cage and Eno.

http://www.eno-web.co.uk/interviews/musicn85.html

All art needs more of these kinds of guys. And more John Williams too. A nice mix of both tradition and innovation.

Thanks for sharing this. Really enjoying it.

[filmmusic 1,823]

Not to poop on the parade here, but how can you proclaim to be a Brian Eno fan if you don't know he detests classical music? It's part of his entire image.

So, I guess he would say the same thing about Stravinsky, Mahler, Ravel etc., right?

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Again I'm not convinced he detests that music. But it isn't what he is interested in doing himself.

[Score 770]

I actually know who Eno is. But isn't he more into experimental and minimalist stuff, and done lots of pop music?

That's like the singer of Coldplay riling against Bach, IMO.

I respect Eno as a producer of rock/pop albums. While Eno's opinion on Orchestral music isn't automatically invalid for that reason alone, I feel his statement about Williams is baseless and empty considering he didn't bother expound upon it.

The samples posted here for his own music do not give me any indication that he's supremely talented in that arena. He sounds about as able as 95% of the human population with creating music, but it's that narrow sliver that Williams belongs to.

What it seems to boil down to is that Eno simply doesn't like Williams style in the same way people hate any other type of music that isn't appealing to them. There's no backbone to Eno's comments.

Agreed 100%.

There are different ways of expressing subjective dislike of something that from the objective ("tecnhical") standpoints is good. Just dismissing John Williams, who is (or should be) admired by every musician AT LEAST for his outstanding competence, knowledge and compositional technique, by saying that "I can't bear his music" or "it has ruined many a good movie in my opinion", without examples, without arguments, just to trigger a silly laugh from the audience, is just unprofessional, unpolite and unfair.

This reminded me of the very different attitude of Ennio Morricone, when several years ago he held a course about film music, together with a musicologist named Sergio Miceli, and at some point they discussed science fiction movies. Morricone said that he did not like John Williams' approach to Star Wars, for several reasons that he mentioned, mainly that he would have favoured some more elaborated musical forms ("fugues" rather than "marches", as he more or less said) to express the grandiosity of space. Then there was a small discussion with Miceli, who instead said that Star Wars was not about the depths of interstellar vacuum, being instead a sort of epic set in another galaxy, for which John Williams' "symphonic-poem" approach seemed to him the most appropriate choice. While I absolutely agree with Miceli, what I appreciated about Morricone's statements was that 1) in the same sentence where he said that he did not like Star Wars' music, he was polite enough to add "... although I consider John Williams to be an extremely good musician", and 2) shortly afterwards, he clearly stated that, from the technical point of view, the music of Star Wars is very well done ("even in those circumstances, John Williams is very good"). He clearly separated the assessment of the technical merits from his (subjective) opinion on the appropriateness of the approach, without mentioning any "antichrist" or similar. Very different from this Brian Eno guy.

[publicist 4,643]

To me the Bring Them Back music works exactly the opposite way. It really becomes the dissonance which really illustrates the mindset of the character, which is completely divorced from reality, and contrasts really effectively with the images. The delusion is in the music, Jim's desperate need to believe he can bring back the meaningful people, these anchors of reality and stability back to life. 

 

I just knew something like that was coming. And i think it's neither what people take away from this scene nor that it ever was intended that way. But anyway, just to give Judas the benefit of the doubt:

 

 

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

I actually know who Eno is. But isn't he more into experimental and minimalist stuff, and done lots of pop music?

That's like the singer of Coldplay riling against Bach, IMO.

I respect Eno as a producer of rock/pop albums. While Eno's opinion on Orchestral music isn't automatically invalid for that reason alone, I feel his statement about Williams is baseless and empty considering he didn't bother expound upon it.

The samples posted here for his own music do not give me any indication that he's supremely talented in that arena. He sounds about as able as 95% of the human population with creating music, but it's that narrow sliver that Williams belongs to.

What it seems to boil down to is that Eno simply doesn't like Williams style in the same way people hate any other type of music that isn't appealing to them. There's no backbone to Eno's comments.

Agreed 100%.

There are different ways of expressing subjective dislike of something that from the objective ("tecnhical") standpoints is good. Just dismissing John Williams, who is (or should be) admired by every musician AT LEAST for his outstanding competence, knowledge and compositional technique, by saying that "I can't bear his music" or "it has ruined many a good movie in my opinion", without examples, without arguments, just to trigger a silly laugh from the audience, is just unprofessional, unpolite and unfair.

This reminded me of the very different attitude of Ennio Morricone, when several years ago he held a course about film music, together with a musicologist named Sergio Miceli, and at some point they discussed science fiction movies. Morricone said that he did not like John Williams' approach to Star Wars, for several reasons that he mentioned, mainly that he would have favoured some more elaborated musical forms ("fugues" rather than "marches", as he more or less said) to express the grandiosity of space. Then there was a small discussion with Miceli, who instead said that Star Wars was not about the depths of interstellar vacuum, being instead a sort of epic set in another galaxy, for which John Williams' "symphonic-poem" approach seemed to him the most appropriate choice. While I absolutely agree with Miceli, what I appreciated about Morricone's statements was that 1) in the same sentence where he said that he did not like Star Wars' music, he was polite enough to add "... although I consider John Williams to be an extremely good musician", and 2) shortly afterwards, he clearly stated that, from the technical point of view, the music of Star Wars is very well done ("even in those circumstances, John Williams is very good"). He clearly separated the assessment of the technical merits from his (subjective) opinion on the appropriateness of the approach, without mentioning any "antichrist" or similar. Very different from this Brian Eno guy.

Do you really think he was just trying to get a laugh? Listening to him elsewhere, doesn't it seem more likely it was just another digression that he fell prey to, one which he, perhaps, as he trailed off, regretted?

Must everyone justify their opinions in depth if they wish to share them? Perhaps this wasn't the right venue for that. In fact, it wasn't.

It seems a bit like what you're saying is, "it's ok to dislike the things I dislike, but you have to qualify it by saying that you don't really dislike it."

[King Mark 3,626]

Who's Brian Eno?

[publicist 4,643]

It's a whole style it seems.

[Thor 7,478]

Wow, brutal honesty from Eno there!

But there's no reason to take it personally. I still love the guy's music and it just adds to his colourful personality.

I wonder what he would have thought about something like IMAGES, though, since I have a feeling he's basing his opinion on only one particular sound of Williams.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Some of you are such Victorians. He even laughs a little at his own exaggerated off the cuff comment.

Musicians have been ridiculing one another with off the cuff statements like this since the dawn of music. Yes even Mozart and Beethoven. And they were courtly!

Shoot, this isn't even exclusive to music. See Hemingway and Faulkner.

[Score 770]

Do you really think he was just trying to get a laugh? Listening to him elsewhere, doesn't it seem more likely it was just another digression that he fell prey to, one which he, perhaps, as he trailed off, regretted?

Must everyone justify their opinions in depth if they wish to share them? Perhaps this wasn't the right venue for that. In fact, it wasn't.

It seems a bit like what you're saying is, "it's ok to dislike the things I dislike, but you have to qualify it by saying that you don't really dislike it."

I only mean that, at least to me, the way he put it sounded unnecessarily offensive, especially considering that he is speaking of a real master who has proved his value as a musician countless times. Eno is apparently giving a lecture in public, as also the title of the video says, and in my opinion a lecturer has the responsibility of what he says to students. It's not like speaking with friends at the bar.

It's not just the fact that I like JW and he does not. For example, I do not like several compositions by Stravinsky (while I consider him one of the grestest composers of the 20th century and of all times). In particular, let's say, I do not like "Jeu des cartes", for several reasons that are probably subjective. Neverthless, if I were giving a lecture, I would never say that Stravinsky is my antichrist and his music for "Jeu des cartes" has ruined the ballet for which it was written and finish the sentence there. Stravinsky has done great things and deserves more respect than that. I would maybe discuss politely why I do not like that particular ballet (if appropriate in the context of the lecture), but surely not place there a dismissing statement like that, without elaborating further. This is what I did not like about Eno's comment, that's all.

[King Mark 3,626]

I'm going to put the Windows 95 music in my itunes

That should kick some JW ass

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[King Mark 3,626]

oh, with the alternate "PC boot up" music?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Do you really think he was just trying to get a laugh? Listening to him elsewhere, doesn't it seem more likely it was just another digression that he fell prey to, one which he, perhaps, as he trailed off, regretted?

Must everyone justify their opinions in depth if they wish to share them? Perhaps this wasn't the right venue for that. In fact, it wasn't.

It seems a bit like what you're saying is, "it's ok to dislike the things I dislike, but you have to qualify it by saying that you don't really dislike it."

I only mean that, at least to me, the way he put it sounded unnecessarily offensive, especially considering that he is speaking of a real master who has proved his value as a musician countless times. Eno is apparently giving a lecture in public, as also the title of the video says, and in my opinion a lecturer has the responsibility of what he says to students. It's not like speaking with friends at the bar.

It's not just the fact that I like JW and he does not. For example, I do not like several compositions by Stravinsky (while I consider him one of the grestest composers of the 20th century and of all times). In particular, let's say, I do not like "Jeu des cartes", for several reasons that are probably subjective. Neverthless, if I were giving a lecture, I would never say that Stravinsky is my antichrist and his music for "Jeu des cartes" has ruined the ballet for which it was written and finish the sentence there. Stravinsky has done great things and deserves more respect than that. I would maybe discuss politely why I do not like that particular ballet (if appropriate in the context of the lecture), but surely not place there a dismissing statement like that, without elaborating further. This is what I did not like about Eno's comment, that's all.

But don't you see that the use of the term "antichrist" isn't meant to demonize, but to show the relationship between their musical approaches? So of course you wouldn't call Stravinsky your antichrist, unless your compositional and artistic philosophies are in direct opposition to his. It's a question of artistic relativity, not respect.

Eno doesn't need to explain anything, to the listeners present or otherwise. To those who know about him, it's very easy to understand why he thinks of Williams as his antichrist, his opposite, the other extreme in musical expression. There is no clarification necessary. To those who don't, it's an opportunity to learn a bit about the way he thinks and the way he does music.

[Quintus 5,399]

Yep. And the Error Message concert suite.

Someone's been hanging around FFSHRINE. Filthy traitor!

[mrbellamy 6,272]

But don't you see that the use of the term "antichrist" isn't meant to demonize, but to show the relationship between their musical approaches? So of course you wouldn't call Stravinsky your antichrist, unless your compositional and artistic philosophies are in direct opposition to his. It's a question of artistic relativity, not respect.

Eno doesn't need to explain anything, to the listeners present or otherwise. To those who know about him, it's very easy to understand why he thinks of Williams as his antichrist, his opposite, the other extreme in musical expression. There is no clarification necessary. To those who don't, it's an opportunity to learn a bit about the way he thinks and the way he does music.

I think saying that Williams has ruined many good films indicates that he's talking about more than mere differences in approach.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Or maybe he means that the films have been ruined in his mind, for him alone, because of his radically different musical sensibilities?

[mrbellamy 6,272]

How is that any different from saying that in his opinon, Williams's music isn't very good and the scores don't work in their films?

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

I'm going to put the Windows 95 music in my itunes

That should kick some JW ass

If you choose wisely, you may find that there is a good deal of his music that actually does do things for you that Williams' music is incapable of - just as the opposite is true.

How is that any different from saying that in his opinon, Williams's music isn't very good and the scores don't work in their films?

Because he's talking about a personal, fundamental artistic disagreement, and not trying to make a universally true judgement about the quality or effectiveness of the music.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I'm going to put the Windows 95 music in my itunes

That should kick some JW ass

If you choose wisely, you may find that there is a good deal of his music that actually does do things for you that Williams' music is incapable of - just as the opposite is true.

Like sending him to sleep?

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

I'd have to mind-meld with you to convey what I'm talking about!

[KK 3,307]

Or maybe he means that the films have been ruined in his mind, for him alone, because of his radically different musical sensibilities?

Maybe, though it feels like you're starting to stretch the justification a bit.

I enjoy some of Eno's work, and this won't effect how I feel about that. But I believe the first impression one gets when you say "he's hurt many a good film" is that he felt Williams' music has done more harm than good.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Or maybe he means that the films have been ruined in his mind, for him alone, because of his radically different musical sensibilities?

Maybe, though it feels like you're starting to stretch the justification a bit.

I am.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Who cares. Profession jealousy is so pathetic.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

I agree, Joey! Now, I'm not sure that's what this was. But I agree.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I'm sure Eno jealously cries into his cash piles of a quarter billion dollars every time he thinks o fJohn Williams and his $2 million scoring contracts!

[mrbellamy 6,272]

How is that any different from saying that in his opinon, Williams's music isn't very good and the scores don't work in their films?

Because he's talking about a personal, fundamental artistic disagreement, and not trying to make a universally true judgement about the quality or effectiveness of the music.

Well, obviously the "in my opinion" indicates that he wasn't getting at anything universal.

I'm with KK on this one, I don't think he meant anything other than he's seen the movies, didn't care much for the music, didn't think it was effective, and would have preferred a different approach altogether (not even necessarily his own.)

Although, contrary to what pub said earlier, I have a suspicion that he may be referring more to the dramas than the action/adventure stuff. Whenever I see specific criticisms of Williams' music in context, the scenes I see come up most are "I could have done more" in Schindler's List, "Give us free" in Amistad, the Americana in Saving Private Ryan and Lincoln, the ending of A.I., pretty much anything in War Horse. That's the stuff that people seem especially sensitive to as dramatic underscore, whereas I think criticisms of Star Wars and Indiana Jones are more along the lines of "It all sounds the same, it's too loud, too much going on, the themes are annoying and repeated over and over again." That's my impression, anyway, though Eno may well be referring to all of it.

[King Mark 3,626]

Who on earth can dispute NOW that the Star Wars score doesn't work in the film

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Someone with a fundamentally different artistic perspective than yours.

[Faleel 5,340]

Too much music, not enough room for the film to breath etc.?

[King Mark 3,626]

The point is nothing about Star Wars can be disputed now

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Anything can be disputed.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

On ‎3‎.‎8‎.‎2014 at 7:10 PM, Blumen Cohlsman said:

I'm sure Eno jealously cries into his cash piles of a quarter billion dollars every time he thinks o fJohn Williams and his $2 million scoring contracts!

.

[A24 4,327]

Who on earth can dispute NOW that the Star Wars score doesn't work in the film

I don't think he likes Star Wars, KM. I think he's more into The Man Who Fell To Earth but I wouldn't know for sure.

I'm sure Eno jealously cries into his cash piles of a quarter billion dollars every time he thinks o fJohn Williams and his $2 million scoring contracts!

Is it $2 million these days?

[tedfud 38]

Eno doesn't have anything like that kind of money !

t

[A24 4,327]

Justin Bieber makes more money than Willliams.

George Lucas makes more money than Justin Bieber.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

.

[A24 4,327]

I love the music of Close Encounters but as a score it's dated too.

[Quintus 5,399]

It is. Parts of it sound like the big band sound of Live at the London Palladium during some big song and dance routine.

But it's still magnificent.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

.

[A24 4,327]

It is. It was written when big, lush, extravagant scores were back en vogue but at the same time it's also one of the most domineering and obtrusive (telling us how magnificent and wondrous the events are) scores ever recorded for a modern film. Even my son, who is not a stranger to somewhat 'older' movies, thought it was too much.

Alex

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

It might be dated trough a filmmaker glasses(and a current fashion of scoring) but as a pure music, it's timeless. For me only that matters, is the music.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I have to agree with the Finlander.

God! Imagine if CE3K was scored today!

[crocodile 7,990]

Braaaaam!

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Now that is timeless!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Mine do tend to linger!