The Avengers: Age of Ultron discussion thread (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Since I'll be seeing this at midnight I thought I better set this thread up.

Just to be clear, people who want to see the film without any spoilers should avoid this thread.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Black Widow's new suit had a definite TRON vibe

The mid credits scene feature Thanos putting on a glove and saying "fine, ill do it myself"

Lots of fanboys orgasmed loudly at that scene

[Quintus 5,399]

You've developed into quite the Avengers fan[boy] haven't you

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I like the films. But I know nothing about the comics

The Avengers: Age Of Ultron

Starts out with a big action scene where The Avengers take out a Hydra operation in a fake eastern European city/country called Sokovia. Hydra had gathered remnants from the first films enemies including Loki's scepter. Also they had created two being dubbed "the enhanced". The twins Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. (neither is names as such in the film though).

During this opening battle Tony Stark is given a vision of the death of his friends caused by him. Which leads him to secretly to develop Ultron. The ultimate peacekeeping program that could replace The Avengers.

This Ultron misunderstands the directions given by Stark, and somehow becomes sentient and confiders it his job to destroy The Avengers and humanity in order to save it.

This leads to strive within The Avengers as several members are given visions of impending death by the Scarlet Witch which leads them to doubt their effectiveness as a team.

Can The Avengers regain trust in each other and their mission and save the Earth?

Of course they can!

The film officially opens the summer blockbuster season. It's big. Bigger then The Avengers, bigger then just about any movie out there, though t thankfully avoids CGI harmonies of thousands of soldiers.

That doesnt mean to say that the cast isnt big. It is actually huge. Having almost all of the characters from the first film. (only Coulson, Loki and Pepper are missing).

Characters from the heroes own franchise show up. Rhodey and Falcon, Peggy Carter and Heimdal. New characters are introduced. The Twins, Ultron, Vision and Andy Serkis without a motion capture suit. (Loki is credited on IMDB, but I didnt catch him)

Plus Hawke gets a wife, we get a glimpse into Black Widow's past. (Julie Delphy had a tiny cameo as a teacher). This film is crammed up.

Robert Downey Jr. gives his 6th performance as Tony Stark. Once again in top, irreverent form. Like Iron Man 3 his wisecracking nature hides massive doubts and fears. Which cause him to create Ultron.

Like the third Iron Man film there seems to be a constant drive to have Downey without his suit as much as possible. So as Tony rather then Iron Man. Perhaps its because the actor is under a 50 million dollar contract so Marvel wants their monies worth.

Captain America is more of a leader in this film. Once again Chris Evans does a fine job portraying stalwart good old American values without becoming too objectionable. His suit is closer to the kick-ass version in The Winter Soldier. Cap's vision, given to him by Scarlett Witch is one of a USO Dance with Peggy Carter.

Thor is important to the plot,and is given some of the films most fun asides, but I got the feeling parts of his story have been omitted. His vision is the most intense. Heimndall naming him as the destroyer of them all while Asgard burns. Leading him to seek out an ancient well to obtain a clarification of his vision. During this time Thor appears from the film for quite a while only to return when the plot requires him to.

The Hulk/Bruce Banners role is larger as Bruce struggles with his status as a member of the team. A volatile time bomb, who seems to have the respect of the rest of the Avengers, though they hardly seem at ease with him. The Hulk shows some control over his actions, but far too little to comfortably use him around civilians. This causes Banner to help Stark create Ultron.

The relationship between Banner and Natasha is also deepened, as both doubt whether they are really what they appear to be. The Hulks vision is not disclosed.

Black Widow is given a vision of training to be an assassin as a child, and being sterilized so to avoid accidentally having children that could complicate her work. She considers just leaving The Avengers because like Banner she is unsure that she is actually hero. Yet at the end she and the Captain train the new recruits.

Hawkeye has a family in this one, and his character is deepened. He's also this films red herring when it comes to the "who will Whedon kill" aspect. The film strongly hints that it is him. Giving him a pregnant wife, talk about redoing the house, choosing a more quiet life etc

Ultron is the films main baddie. Created by Stark from Starks programming and therefore taking on a persona thats rather like him. Ironically because Ultron seems to deeply despise his creator.

James Spader's voice is excellent casting as it goes from prophecies of doom to Tony Stark like irrelevant banter. In essence Ultron is another version of the Whedonesque villain. Evil and aware of that fact, but never not able to deliver a funny one liner. Ultron's confusion about saving humanity and destroying it, which seem the same thing to him is quite interesting. I actually wish him and his motivations featured larger in the film.

Wanda and Pietro Maximoff are the secondary villains who change alliance once they find out what Ultron's end game really is. While in the comics they are mutants they are in no way referred to by that name here. and their abilities and not natural to them but created by Hydra. They develop in inter testing enough characters as the film progresses. Given characterization at key points. Pietro is the one who dies in this film, saving the red herring Hawkeye, and its actually sort of moving.

The last important new character is Vision. Created in part by Ultron, Stark and Banner and Thor. A living personification of the Jarvis program and the infinity stone within Loki's scepter. Paul Bethany makes the right choice in playing the character as enigmatic and non human as possible. Hardly seeming aware of what exactly he is or what his purpose is. Partly god-like, even to the extent that he can wield Thor's hammer, but 7understanding enough of human nature to not hate them to the degree Ultron does. This character needed more screentime.

Once again, this film is huge, obligated to not only outdo the first film, but any other big budget special effects film that has come since. So they action scenes are overwhelming, expensive looking and filmed with a certain penance. Whedon isnt a master in visual imagery, but he gets by very well using his strengths. The film looks bigger then his first. Is finally in an aspect ratio that does its scale justice.

That the film works on a level of story and emotion is largely up to Whedon's ability to handle an ensemble cast like this. But there are moments where main characters just seem to vanish. (Thor, Hulk and Vision all seem AWAL for large stretches of the final battle , which doesnt take pace in NY, but in a city in Sokovia, which is being elevated above the Earth to function as a giant meteorite to destroy the planet so it can be saved.....

Before that massive action scene there are several other ones. The opening one, the Hulk versus Iron-man fight (which is bigger then anything in The Incredible Hulk but takes place in the middle of this film. Whedon does a good job for the most part avoiding Battle fatique.

The score. I doubt we will ever be told what exactly went on., but the scoring process sounds like a nightmare, featuring two of the biggest names in Hollywood (Brian Tyler and Danny Elfman), and you would think that would be enough to blast any memory of Alan Silvestri to Kingdom Come, especially since his score for the Avengers is solid, but hardly one of his best.

However someone really liked that first score, and it's themes. So the movie doesnt open with Tyler's logo cue featuring Thors theme, it's a new piece that has the Avengers theme in is and then the film goes straight top tracked music from the first film. The scene features a long unbroken camera shot, going from one Avenger to another, just like in the first film.

This basically sets the tone as far as the score is concerned. Marvel films have been famously unconcerned with maintaining musical continuity. but someone obviously wanted this score to continue with the style and themes of the first one. I assume that was Whedon.

So not only do both composers use Alan's themes, portions of the first score are tracked or re-recorded and Silvestri gets a lot of loving in the end credits.

Like The Avengers this is a huge, slightly incomprehensible film. But one with heart, humor and some great action. Once again it gets the tone right. It lacks the urgency of Winter Soldier, but it's more enjoyable overall the Guardians Of The Galaxy.

I'll see it again soon.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Nope. Mid credits scene featuring Thanos, no scene after the credits. Which pissed a lot of fans off

[Quintus 5,399]

Better than Guardians? That's quite an accomplishment if true, because while Guardians isn't exactly amazing it's still the best Marvel movie to date imo.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Guardians has a few better highlights, but also a few serious dead spots. Age Of Ultron is more interesting to me all the way through.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

So who dies?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I actually mentioned that in my review. Alex' disease is spreading.

Quicksilver does. Saving Hawkeye who was about to die saving a young child.

[crocodile 7,984]

OK so there goes...

The film is not as perfectly balanced as its predecessor, some plot points seem a bit, shall we say, random. At least after one viewing. For instance. the whole idea of Ultron and Vision seemed to come out of nowhere. Oh yes, I know everything was a part of grander plot but it felt disjointed (at least some elements). There is simply a lot stuff in there, plenty of characters. And it might move at a slightly more uneven pace because of that.

But...

The first film was relatively simple in terms of its ideas and it looked quite ordinary. This one has some better ideas and it was also more arresting to look at. There are some nice visuals in there, something that the 2012 film lacked. The characters are treated well, there is more humour as well (if that's even possible). Plenty of Whedon touch, even more so than previously. So, while not as graceful, it does have enough attractions to make up for it. Perhaps too many, even. It could have been yet another destruction porn but thankfully the director is able to inject enough character and lightness so that it doesn't seem quite as heavy.

The music doesn't make much of an impression. Many cues are hacked up and don't appear in their entirety (well, in the form we hear them on album). For instance, the film opens with Danny Elfman's It Begins but then it cuts to Alan Silvestri's music (re-recorded) and then,... I have no idea. Elfman's cue comes back later on, however (meaning halfway through the film) Only a few moments really stand out (Avengers Unite). Captain America's theme makes some appearances, none of which are tracked. There's one woodwind variation at the farmhouse that I really liked, and then another one while he's facing Ultron in Seoul. The new theme is used quite a bit but the entire score is such a stylistic mess (and mixed low) that not much of it sticks around in memory. It's kind of a blur. Shame.

Overall, I had a blast watching it. Given that I watched two Marvel films right before it and was really tired, proves the film wasn't boring. Quite the opposite.

The ending sort of surprised me. Might mean several big players (Downey Jr) might not be back for the next chapter. So by the end of it we see the new Avengers roster. It felt quite bittersweet, to be honest.

The film ends on a big battle, as expected. It's fairly ridiculous but one funny line from Hawkeye helps to sell it.

I was also surprised they decided to kill off Quicksilver. One thing I didn't expect.

OK, that was incoherent. But I need some sleep now.

And yes, I'd like to watch it again.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Silvestri music that opened the film definitely felt tracked rather then rerecorded

[crocodile 7,984]

Maybe... Couldn't tell you. Will pay closer attention tomorrow.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And there was definitely one instance where I felt they tracked in a Captain America statement from the first score.

Pay attention to the following tomorrow please.

The rendition of The Avengers after the mid credits scene, is it re-recorded or tracked. It sounded tracked to me, though the ending sounded a bit different.

[crocodile 7,984]

If you mean that statement when he's fighting Ultron, then it sounded new to me. My money is on Elfman.

The end credits version of Avengers theme... Yeah, had the same exact impression as you did.

What makes me think that the opening fight Silvestri material was re-recorded is that I couldn't hear Black Widow's theme statement in there (the one at 2:50)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KNgKMoOVYU

But it could have simply be butchered in editing.

I'm really surprised with the score in this film. I mean, two composers recording up to the very last moment... and their music is still a mess. It's not even about style clash (certainly you can't hear that much of a difference with this shitty mix) but the fact that bits and pieces are used here and there... Unless the album tracks are edited differently.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Sonically it sounded identical to I Got A Ride, while tracks that are definitely re-recorded, like the Helicarrier cue and the closing track (Cap and Natasha greeting the new Avengers)

[crocodile 7,984]

As I said, could be.

The film opens with this track from Danny Elfman. The logos, I mean. Then, it goes into Silvestri's material. Who knows, maybe he inteded that to be the opening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jsDoiPk5y4

Karol

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Hey, the movie might have been in 2.35:1, but it wasn't anamorphic.

[leeallen01 2,133]

I enjoyed Age of Ultron, but man was the plot rushed, kind of ridiculous (even for a superhero film) and the music was completely forgettable besides about 3 moments, all from Elfman and Silvestri's reused stuff. Whedon is the master of combining brutal and terrifyingly evil scenes with humour. I don't think just any one can pull off something like he has, twice now.

I was laughing when Ultron was boasting of the billions that will die when his ridiculous plan of an asteroid hits earth. (Just build nukes...) he built a damn superbeing called Vision, so I doubt a big big big nuke is that hard to make, steal or buy. That big city of rock would barely do anything if dropped. Comets and asteroids are travelling at huge speeds and are very compacted solid iron rock etc, a soft big of soil a mile wide, dropped at a couple of hundred mph wont do anything...the Avengers should have just sat and watched and laughed when it didn't do any damage.

It was a very fun and entertaining film, especially the last act battle where finally they united in one place and we got a decent listen of elfmans hybrid silvestri theme. But the music/dialogue/sound effects mix was poor in the opening battle scenes, and although the comedy was enjoyable, the whole middle chapter of Ultron being created and 'taking over the internet' etc was kind of rushed and stupidity won again over supposedly great minds of Stark and Banner, who thought it would be a good idea to create some artificial intelligence and then leave it and go have drinks and party.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Stan Lee's cameo is his best yet

[leeallen01 2,133]

I think the best moment of the film was when we went inside the minds of the avengers. My personal favourite being when Cap finally made it to the dance he promised her.

Stan Lee's cameo is his best yet

Haha yeah, with Thors special brew.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Excelsior!

[leeallen01 2,133]

Super cereal

I'm a massive Joss Whedon fan, have been since 1997, but after seeing Age of Ultron, he has kind of revealed himself as a hypocrite. He is brilliant at writing strong female characters, and all he seems to do is tell people off for not doing the same and is a big campaigner for women having better role models in the media, yet *Spoiler* in Age of Ultron he demotes Black Widow to a romantic sidekick who pines for Banner because he's a 'good guy with a temper' as she puts it, and she is the only avenger captured by Ultron and locked away, and then she gets freed by a big strong man. Also the Scarlett Witch is a wimp that hides from battle until a big strong man comes along and tells her to get a grip a fight. Even the Korean scientist that works with Stark has a throw away line that suggests she fancies Thor. Kind of shooting yourself in the foot there Whedon.

[crocodile 7,984]

Maybe he just doesn't want to go further with his own clichés? ;P

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Hurmm 91]

I don't know about you guys, but I found the action scenes pretty weak in this one. The action in the first movie was not only staged much better, but also filmed and framed much more coherently. This one had a bit of the Transformers syndrome, with messy action and the camera being too close to the action. Could possibly be due to my seat being closer to the screen this time, but I'm interested if you guys felt the same.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I didn't

[crocodile 7,984]

I didn't either.

Karol

[leeallen01 2,133]

I was sat quite far from the screen and was definitely annoyed by the action sometimes being too quick, weightless and unrecognisable. I was struggling to care during action scenes because of the lack of a solid feel. The actors are clearly just swinging at nothing with Whedon off camera shouting "keep hitting, keep swinging, there's one behind you! Hit that!" And it feels like there is no substance to any fight.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Hurmm 91]

Weightless is a good word to describe the action here. To an extent it was also present in the first but its really magnified in this one.

For example, there was absolutely nothing more to the fight between Iron Man and Ultron other than CGI metal clanging into each other.

During the chase scene with Black Widow on the bike my mind wandered off into reminiscing about the freeway sequence from Matrix Reloaded, and I thought to myself in the cinema "man, now that was one magnificient sequence. One of the best ever".

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Just wait till next year when Batman faces Superman!

Even Marvel's Joss Whedon can't wait

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/joss-whedon-batman-v-superman-makes-perfect-sense-to-me

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No!

[Hurmm 91]

For example, there was absolutely nothing more to the fight between Iron Man and Ultron other than CGI metal clanging into each other.

Indeed. The same can be said for the fight between Ultron and Vision. And again for the fight between Hulk and Iron Man. No build-up, no tension, nothing. They just... happen and have no impact whatsoever. They're just "another fight", not something special. Bah!

Same goes for Ultron coming into existence. It just happens. What an odd entrance for a villain to make... But it was semi-interesting for a moment until he turns into yet another generic, charmless megalomaniac.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[leeallen01 2,133]

Yes! Everything happens too fast, no moment is given the importance it deserves.

Stark: "Let's create artificial intelligent (ignore the Matrix, Terminator and every other media that has ever addressed AI, it'll be fine)

Banner: "Okay cool. Where do we begin?"

*Music play* ... Montage...even rocky had a montage....MONTAGE!

Stark: "Okay, let's party."

*Minutes later* Ultron is created, revolts, creates form, intimidates Avengers, escapes through the internet via the website: www.SlowItDown.com/RushingThePlot

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Bring back Loki! All is forgiven!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 7,984]

Watched it again. OK, plot-wise it's a bit lacking and thin. Not that that's not an issue with the dirst film. The pacing is also off at times, the middle bit drags a bit. I guess, there's only so much you can have in a film like that and make it feel fully rounded abd developed. Sometimes, it feels like characters are doing stuff only becaise plot requires them to at that particular point in the story. So no, it's not as good as the first film overall but Whedon does what he can to make it flpw better. For the most part, it works.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

As long as the film is, it feels edited down. Especially Thor's part. I feel that there are parts missing from his story. Especially from his solo quest with Eric Selvig.

Did you see Loki? He was supposed to be in this film?

[crocodile 7,984]

No, he wasn't there (unless it was in Thor's second vision). And yeah, it feels trimmed. As Chaac said, the film was kriginally 40 longer. I'd like to see that version.

But don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed it wuite a bit. Only its shortcomings become more obvious the second time.

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Whedon "We need breathing room!"

[crocodile 7,984]

Well, Desolation of Smaug was too long and improved on with even more footage. Plus, Ultron was shorter than the first one.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And did a better job with its characters

[crocodile 7,984]

One thing I was disappointed with was Ultron. It's not that I didn't like his banter and voice (or look). But there's no real merit behind his motivations.

He says that Avengers are a threat. OK, maybe that's true. But... Why? He never really makes a convincing case for anything which weakens his character quite a bit. He just sort of wakes up and decides to destroy the world. Wish there was more to it.

Oh and at no point did they say Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch have their powers because of Hydra experiments. They just say they were doimg experiments on the twins and that they are "enhanced" (which I guess is anotger word for mutant). No real correlation between the two or Whedon deliberately leaves it ambiguous.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

In the comics the twins are mutants, but since Fox owns the X-Men franchise Marvel wasn't allowed to use that term.

I think its been left vague on purpose