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What have the last 15 years of big-screen Tolkien meant to you?


Dixon Hill

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There's a lot of movie franchises I'd re-watch over LotR .It's like some of you guys with random LotR characters avatars think it's the best movies ever made and you defend that to the death

There is nothing random about these avatars of mine. I have had them since 2002.

"You started this, so you will excuse me if I finnish it."

I'll do the Finnishing, thank you! ;)

OOOH ninja'd by TGP!

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There's a lot of movie franchises I'd re-watch over LotR .It's like some of you guys with random LotR characters avatars think it's the best movies ever made and you defend that to the death

There is nothing random about these avatars of mine. I have had them since 2002.

yeah but you don't come across as obsessed over LotR as gkgyver or some others

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There's a lot of movie franchises I'd re-watch over LotR .It's like some of you guys with random LotR characters avatars think it's the best movies ever made and you defend that to the death

There is nothing random about these avatars of mine. I have had them since 2002.

yeah but you don't come across as obsessed over LotR as gkgyver or some others

Thank you, I guess...

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Undeniably there is a nostalgic "end of an era" type of feel to the Hobbit films coming to an end with the Battle of the Five Armies. It has been, for the most part, a very enjoyable journey and it has been undoubtedly the biggest cinematic event and experience I have had in my adulthood. Something to reminisce in the years to come. It's impact is difficult to assess as it has been tied together with so many other interests and impulses in my life but you could say it has opened, like Tolkien's novels, a lot of new avenues to me throughout the years.

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I like the Hobbit films better because they feel more like high fantasy films (a bit like the video game settings I like) than LotR meant to please the Tolkien hardcore fan base

The best thing in the last one was Tauriel and she's not even in the books

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Glad I made another thread that increased my hatred for this place.

Oh now now. You knew it would be inevitable when you posted this thread. All the bickering, backlashing and one sentence judgements of the whole notion of these films.

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You kind of asked for it, after the poll that clearly showed there was too many LotR threads on the forum already

Yeah. Definitely. Oops. Fuck you.

Did you already drink yourself to the curmudgeonly stupor in honor of the Professor's work TGP?

As much as Tolkien's writings are frustrating and boring, I really lile Alan Lee's illustrations. Those paintings would make a good movie.

Why do you spend so much time harping those boring writings that do not appeal to you when you could be doing something constructive?

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And for the record I'm sort of teasing, since you LotR fans get worked up easily

I also enjoy the films to a higher degree than the average films

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You kind of asked for it, after the poll that clearly showed there was too many LotR threads on the forum already

Yeah. Definitely. Oops. Fuck you.
Did you already drink yourself to the curmudgeonly stupor in honor of the Professor's work TGP?

As much as Tolkien's writings are frustrating and boring, I really lile Alan Lee's illustrations. Those paintings would make a good movie.

Why do you spend so much time harping those boring writings that do not appeal to you when you could be doing something constructive?

Because I like the drawings. And it still irks me that the books didn't live up to how cool the illustrations were.

Hell even the books didn't live up to the movies.

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Glad I made another thread that increased my hatred for this place.

If you hate this forum so much then why do you keep posting here? I'm not trying to start a fight or anything. I'm just curious as to why somebody would continuously post on a forum they hate for a composer (from what I can tell) they don't appear to have any significant affection for.

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Anyways I tried to steer clear of LotR threads for the past couple of years even if I enjoy the films because it always devolves in to something like this .My bad.

I get the same way when Giacchino gets overpraised even if I enjoy most of his music.

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Fellowship came out the year I graduated from high school. So when I saw the Hobbit it brought back all those memories like it was just yesterday. I was a Tolkien fan before that as a kid I would always watch the The Hobbit cartoon with John Huston as Gandalf it had such a different style to it. Also watching The Lord Of The Rings animated and feeling displeased that it wasn't the full story. When I found out Peter Jackson was doing The Lord Of The Rings as three movies I almost died I thought finally a live action version closer to the books. I enjoyed all three Fellowship was my favorite and I thought back then why don't they do The Hobbit also. I considered the cartoons to be outdated even though I enjoyed them as a child. I had something I could share with my family that wasn't so cartoonish with a great cast of actors. When Return of The King came out I was a little disappointed they didn't film the Scouring Of The Shire. I thought this would be the end and the The Hobbit would only be an idea. When they announced he was going back and doing The Hobbit I thought that their would be actors from The Lord Of The Rings returning. I was just flawed that it was coming true and when they added the Dol Goldur stuff it made it even better. I'm going to miss it.

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Glad I made another thread that increased my hatred for this place.

If you hate this forum so much then why do you keep posting here? I'm not trying to start a fight or anything. I'm just curious as to why somebody would continuously post on a forum they hate for a composer (from what I can tell) they don't appear to have any significant affection for.

Look harder if it seems that way. I don't trip over my affection for Williams in my haste to spew praise but that means nothing.

I continue to post here because there is some good conversation to be had and I still feel that's worth it. Lately it's just gotten impossible because there are certain members who have really stepped up the unbearability level. Myself included, in response.

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Alright, guess it's my turn.

 

I was 6 years old when the Fellowship of the Ring came out. I had no idea these movies existed, my parents didn't care for them either, it was a dark Tolkien-less age in the household. I was an active reader as a young kid, and like most readers at that age, I was particularly taken with the fantasy genre, and anything with swords, wizards and magic was bound to attract my eye. So it was around 2003, when I was about 8 years old, that I started to notice all the hype surrounding Return of the King. I noticed talk on the radio, massive posters everywhere, etc, etc. And pictures of an man in white robes and a staff, and another with a sword all piqued my interest. So when it came the time to ask my parents what I wanted for Christmas, I said I wanted The Lord of the Rings movie.

 

Of course, being my parents, I was surprised and disappointed to the find a VHS of the Bakshi adaptation, gift-wrapped under my tree. It wasn't what I was looking for, but I decided to give it a try that day, and I hated it. I vehemently disliked it, mainly because it was frighteningly bizarre in parts (was not a fan of the rotoscoping), and I couldn't follow any of it. I couldn't blame my parents, because again, they had no idea who or what Tolkien was, and neither did I at the time. But that was the point where I "realized" Tolkien was not for me, and I didn't bother from that point forward.

 

Things started to change a bit in the fifth grade, when I was about 10 or 11. Always being the kid who wandered around in the school library, there were a couple of copies of the LotR novels lying around. They were incredibly thick, but I was looking for a challenge, and I decided might as well give it another try. And everything changed. I have to admit, at the time, I couldn't quite grasp the enormity and depth of the work, but I fell in love with the characters, I adored the sense of adventure, it was everything a fantasy nut like me could ask for!

 

My classroom teacher took notice of my reading the Tolkien books (she was well aware of my aptitude for reading), and being a Tolkienite herself, introduced me to the films. She personally lent me her own copies, and on retrospect, that act of kindness helped change me into the person I am today. Naturally, I was very taken with the films. They blew me away, just the sheer scope of it all. There were of course, some scenes that bothered me (having coming straight from the books), like the Saruman and Gandalf battle, which I love now, but hated then. The fact that Saruman didn't have his own intentions with the ring in LotR also displeased me and I also remember being surprised by the giant eye, if only because I didn't quite understand it in the book. Tolkien was very ambiguous about it, and a lot of the hints just flew by my poor 10 year old mind, and I was picturing a physical Dark Lord image, so it took me a while to understand the concept of the eye. I had to ask my teacher about it too, and cross-reference with the books to check if this powerful dark lord was really just an oversized cat's eye...

 

Anyways, the music affected me on a subconscious level too. I'd be stomping the 5/4 rhythm on my feet or on the walls all the time, or humming the Fellowship theme. But again, I had no idea that film music was available to the public, and that it was an art form in itself. It wasn't until I heard Chevelairs de Sangreal once, during some Internet surfing, that my eye turned to film music. Howard Shore's FotR was the fourth score I purchased (1) Da Vinci Code, 2) Gladiator, 3) Star Wars, 4) FotR...). And you know the rest...

 

Tolkein is very dear to me, but PJ's films mean a lot too. This really was the Star Wars of my generation, and I don't think some of the old coots here truly understand the effect it had on us. My biggest regret is that I wasn't there for the big wave, and that I didn't get the chance to experience the fever and mania when it was happening. Either way, PJ brought to life an entire world that at one point was only stuck in my 10-year old mind. And as the years have passed, my appreciation has only grown. Each year, I rewatch this trilogy around the Christmas season, and each year I find something new to appreciate. I remember when I first watched the appendices and how much they blew my mind and made me appreciate more the actual craft behind these films.

 

 And though RotK may have been the most flawed of the three, it was and continues to remain my favourite, because it once again brought so much of that world to life, and it really was the most emotional of the films. I shed man tears the first time I saw that Grey Havens scene came on, and sometimes I still do. These films and books are very personal to me, and as much as guys like Sharky grew out of them, I don't think I can. They'll always stick with me.

 

When the rumours were afloat, my brother told me a Hobbit film be coming up. I hated the idea. I remember telling him how stupid that'd be, that it'll never live up to the original trilogy, that it could ruin everything! But those were rumours, and I never followed any of it, and I didn't think it would happen. But things got serious eventually, and I was onboard, so long as they brought the same team back. So you imagine my disappointment when I heard Del Toro was taking on the director's helm. And then how pleased and happy I was when PJ jumped in again. I was excited!! This was MY chance to relive the Middle-Earth fever in real-time! Or so I thought. I joined JWFan at 2011, and I believe BB, Incanus and some others can attest to my fanboy-ish excitement. And when that teaser came on...man what a teaser! Incanus was at some holiday retreat, so I got to do the little "analysis" of the trailer music, and was behaving as fanboyishly as any fanboy could get. As more stills and rumours came out, things did sound a bit worrying, but I, among many others never flinched in our optimism. One funny instance was when rumours popped up of this becoming a trilogy. I recall BloodBoal and I firmly denying the possibility, and that PJ would never sell out like that! Of course, we were shamefully proven wrong, and Luke Skywalker continued to ominously foretell the Lucasification of PJ. But regardless of whatever minor faults it may have, this was going to be THE movie of the year. I avoided all reviews and everything and booked tickets to the first showing.

 

I had a band concert that very night, but I was NOT going to miss the first showing of the new trilogy. So as soon as I finished the performance, my and my brother rushed to the theatre, and luckily made it (because as always, the movie starts later due to commercials). So there we were, sharing some last minute thoughts before the epic was going to play. We were talking about how lucky we were these films were being made, because it gave us the chance to relive what so many people went through during the releases of the OT. We were so pumped...and then the prologue played. It was surprising how instantaneous all of it was. I didn't even like the first shot of Bilbo writing, but the moment I saw Erebor, I knew this was not going to be what I was hoping it would. And as the film kept playing, my heart kept cracking...

 

It's always hard coming out of a film you had huge expectations coming in with, but leaving with massive disappointment. You just don't know how to put your thoughts to words. Some of my other Tolkien friends watched it on that night too and they were telling me how much they loved it, and I didn't have the heart to tell them how much I didn't...and I watched again with two other groups, where the film held up better, but gone was all the wonder I had hoped for. 

 

There was lots of discussion here following that movie. And I came to the conclusion that there were a lot of circumstantial issues that prevented AUJ from being the film it could have been, not to say that PJ wasn't free of blame, but that this was a minor setback in the trilogy. I convinced myself he was going to make amends with DoS.  He had to right? There is so much more content to use, you couldn't screw it up! The first trailer was far too cartoony for my tastes, but being JWFan, we convinced ourselves that CG was still being worked on.

 

And then I watched DoS...and once again, that opening sequence (the one after the prologue, with all those fake purple skies) made me want to cry, and not in a good way. And as the film progressed, the slow pace of AUJ seems to have been fixed, but it all felt wrong. And the CGI wasn't even my major concern, it was just the way PJ speeds through all the characters and locations...it was too fast. And I hated it, because I didn't care for any of the characters. Gandalf seemed meaningless, Bilbo got shafted to the side, all the new characters seemed superfluous. And it hit me, there was no going back. This was not the PJ of LotR. These films were not going to move me like LotR did. These films were something else...

 

I loved the Smaug scenes though, brilliantly performed, mostly great CGI, all well done, with the exception of the dwarves vs. Smaug sequence (I like to pretend that never happened). So in the end, I came off with a better impression than AUJ, I mean it was more entertaining right?

 

But as the months passed, I grew more and more frustrated by it. Because it was so far from what I loved about LotR. And for that reason, I think AUJ is the better film, just because it felt like we were still in Middle-Earth.

 

I now acknowledge what the new Hobbit trilogy is, and I expect to be entertained by BoFA, but I don't expect to be terribly moved. 

 

The scores of course, are a different matter.

 

So while the Hobbit films disappoint, I'm glad I got on this journey with PJ, and it's hard not to feel nostalgic at this point. If only because I never really got the chance to say goodbye back when RotK ended. I never went through any of that, and I suppose that's what made me all the more frustrated with these films because I was hoping this would have been my chance to experience what that must have been like. But maybe BoFA will give me that in its final scenes. Because LotR does mean a lot to me, both films and books. 

 

Sorry about the long post...turns out I had more to say than I expected lol.

 

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I can hipsterially say

that I was a massive Lord of the Rings fan well before the film craze started but the movies were something I anticipated and dreaded very much at the same time. Fellowship of the Ring allayed my fears as it was not only mainly faithful but well done adaptation of the core of the story. Some minor quibbles aside it really looked like this Peter Jackson and his team had got Tolkien and his world. John Howe and Alan Lee, both the most visually striking Tolkien artists around for me, being part of the team just added to the connection with the films as much of their design felt both familiar and right for Tolkien. I like to think Lord of the Rings films were my Star Wars in a way as I had obviously missed the original release of those films, the 1997 special editions (in theaters) and was not too happy with the Episode I. But the Lord of the Rings films were something that completely blew me away. The sequels more or less followed the norm although PJs excesses were becoming more and more apparent. Still I can't deny that these were (visually) stunning films I watched and rewatched time and time again to perhaps a point of oversaturation.

Then there are the scores. Again I was already a film score fan and at the crossroads of my passions, literature, music and film Shore's music was something I was really interested in hearing and also dreading he would not do the world of Tolkien justice. I remember being impressed by the FotR soundtrack album but it alone did not win me over entirely, 4 star stuff. Strong but not quite a masterpiece. Only after seeing the first film in the theater for the first time (I saw it paltry 9 times in theater) and hearing the first strains of the History of the Ring theme in the opening credits, I truly began to think "This score just might have some claim to greatness" and after the film I was slowly becoming engrossed with the music which was now special. Shore's reaction to the film had been more complex and powerful than I had ever anticipated, so complex and varied and so full of meaning that it became a continuing hobby of parsing through its themes and ideas while still enjoyings the music's emotional resonance. The Two Towers and Return of the King followed and opened yet another set of musical layers and development. Before Doug Adams's book came out we had been happily speculating on the themes, discussing meanings, collecting choral lyrics and reveling the details large and small of this music in various internet communities. It was brilliant time and really gave me an added interest in the bond between the images and the music, how much information music could part but also how much of this intricate work might go unnoticed and the composer did it anyway out of integrity to the subject matter mirroring the work ethic of all involved in these projects who put so much detail and effort into everything and the camera never could capture it all.

So yes I spent quite a few years happily at the crossroads of my passions and the enthusiasm continues to this day.

With the Hobbit the expectations were a bit lower actually. I was a bit apprehensive about the way they would approach the filming of this tale with 14 protagonists and how would they treat the story. I had hopes they would honour it the way they had done Lord of the Rings. But it became apparent that this would be a different kind of adaptation. Not only did the design and look at many points clash seriously with my own aesthetic (despite Howe and Lee being heavily involveD), the changes made to the story warred against my Tolkien purist nature. I remember seeing the An Unexpected Journey alone in 2D in the theater just to soak in the first experience of the film alone and in private. Perhaps the wonder and magic of the Lord of the Rings and the "surprise" of it were gone but this time I was really more annoyed by the plot contrivances. I can handle an artful adaptation but this film seemed to be teetering between two different stylistic poles of silly comedy and very dark drama akin to Lord of the Rings without knowing what to choose as the central focus. So it was not a major triumph although it provided some gorgeous scenes and great acting.

DoS followed suit but the tone darkened considerably and whimsy was entirely absent. Everything was gloomy, dangerous and threatening. Major deviations from the novel created need for new deviations from the novel. Again some excellent individual sequences and the wonder of Smaug were the highlights but it became more and more apparent PJ was creating a very modern action blockbuster around Tolkien's novel, which began to fade into the background. And slowly also did my enthusiasm for these films. I do not have much left for the last one, The Battle of the Five Armies.

Shore's music however continues to intrigue as it has not for the most part abandoned its old aesthetics, architecture and approach. Again this has been a fun few years of parsing through this music as much as just enjoying it for its own sake as there is so much to discover and always some new corner it revealed one has not looked into before and some small nugget of information, subtext or detail comes to light. While not as powerful a work as Lord of the Rings, Shore has done himself proud with this work.

After 15 years Lord of the Rings could have said to have exceeded my expectations and inspired more enthusiasm over the years while the Hobbit films have effectively winded down my enthusiasm for Tolkien film adaptations but my love for Tolkien's writings continues unabated and has only deepened throughout the years. But 15 years has flown by really quickly. :)

Is hipsterially a word now?

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How dare you! I was pouring my heart there!

Nah, who am I kidding...I was just talking shite!

Nah, don't be too harsh on yourself. It was a fun read, and it was nice to see the evolution from the 6-year old KK to the 19-year old KK we have now!

Wow. 19-year old... You're a kid!

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I can hipsterially say

that I was a massive Lord of the Rings fan well before the film craze started but the movies were something I anticipated and dreaded very much at the same time. Fellowship of the Ring allayed my fears as it was not only mainly faithful but well done adaptation of the core of the story. Some minor quibbles aside it really looked like this Peter Jackson and his team had got Tolkien and his world. John Howe and Alan Lee, both the most visually striking Tolkien artists around for me, being part of the team just added to the connection with the films as much of their design felt both familiar and right for Tolkien. I like to think Lord of the Rings films were my Star Wars in a way as I had obviously missed the original release of those films, the 1997 special editions (in theaters) and was not too happy with the Episode I. But the Lord of the Rings films were something that completely blew me away. The sequels more or less followed the norm although PJs excesses were becoming more and more apparent. Still I can't deny that these were (visually) stunning films I watched and rewatched time and time again to perhaps a point of oversaturation.

Then there are the scores. Again I was already a film score fan and at the crossroads of my passions, literature, music and film Shore's music was something I was really interested in hearing and also dreading he would not do the world of Tolkien justice. I remember being impressed by the FotR soundtrack album but it alone did not win me over entirely, 4 star stuff. Strong but not quite a masterpiece. Only after seeing the first film in the theater for the first time (I saw it paltry 9 times in theater) and hearing the first strains of the History of the Ring theme in the opening credits, I truly began to think "This score just might have some claim to greatness" and after the film I was slowly becoming engrossed with the music which was now special. Shore's reaction to the film had been more complex and powerful than I had ever anticipated, so complex and varied and so full of meaning that it became a continuing hobby of parsing through its themes and ideas while still enjoyings the music's emotional resonance. The Two Towers and Return of the King followed and opened yet another set of musical layers and development. Before Doug Adams's book came out we had been happily speculating on the themes, discussing meanings, collecting choral lyrics and reveling the details large and small of this music in various internet communities. It was brilliant time and really gave me an added interest in the bond between the images and the music, how much information music could part but also how much of this intricate work might go unnoticed and the composer did it anyway out of integrity to the subject matter mirroring the work ethic of all involved in these projects who put so much detail and effort into everything and the camera never could capture it all.

So yes I spent quite a few years happily at the crossroads of my passions and the enthusiasm continues to this day.

With the Hobbit the expectations were a bit lower actually. I was a bit apprehensive about the way they would approach the filming of this tale with 14 protagonists and how would they treat the story. I had hopes they would honour it the way they had done Lord of the Rings. But it became apparent that this would be a different kind of adaptation. Not only did the design and look at many points clash seriously with my own aesthetic (despite Howe and Lee being heavily involveD), the changes made to the story warred against my Tolkien purist nature. I remember seeing the An Unexpected Journey alone in 2D in the theater just to soak in the first experience of the film alone and in private. Perhaps the wonder and magic of the Lord of the Rings and the "surprise" of it were gone but this time I was really more annoyed by the plot contrivances. I can handle an artful adaptation but this film seemed to be teetering between two different stylistic poles of silly comedy and very dark drama akin to Lord of the Rings without knowing what to choose as the central focus. So it was not a major triumph although it provided some gorgeous scenes and great acting.

DoS followed suit but the tone darkened considerably and whimsy was entirely absent. Everything was gloomy, dangerous and threatening. Major deviations from the novel created need for new deviations from the novel. Again some excellent individual sequences and the wonder of Smaug were the highlights but it became more and more apparent PJ was creating a very modern action blockbuster around Tolkien's novel, which began to fade into the background. And slowly also did my enthusiasm for these films. I do not have much left for the last one, The Battle of the Five Armies.

Shore's music however continues to intrigue as it has not for the most part abandoned its old aesthetics, architecture and approach. Again this has been a fun few years of parsing through this music as much as just enjoying it for its own sake as there is so much to discover and always some new corner it revealed one has not looked into before and some small nugget of information, subtext or detail comes to light. While not as powerful a work as Lord of the Rings, Shore has done himself proud with this work.

After 15 years Lord of the Rings could have said to have exceeded my expectations and inspired more enthusiasm over the years while the Hobbit films have effectively winded down my enthusiasm for Tolkien film adaptations but my love for Tolkien's writings continues unabated and has only deepened throughout the years. But 15 years has flown by really quickly. :)

Is hipsterially a word now?

Well it is now!

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How dare you! I was pouring my heart there!

Nah, who am I kidding...I was just talking shite!

Nah, don't be too harsh on yourself. It was a fun read, and it was nice to see the evolution from the 6-year old KK to the 19-year old KK we have now!

Wow. 19-year old... You're a kid!

But..but..but I feel old Alvar. I know I don't look it, but I'm beginning to feel it in my heart. I feel...thin. Sort of stretched, like...butter scraped over too much bread.

And technically I'm legal, so...there! ha!

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I've been suspecting the same myself. The real BB wouldn't have given into the Trekkie side, not so easily at least!

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Shore's music however continues to intrigue as it has not for the most part abandoned its old aesthetics, architecture and approach. Again this has been a fun few years of parsing through this music as much as just enjoying it for its own sake as there is so much to discover and always some new corner it revealed one has not looked into before and some small nugget of information, subtext or detail comes to light. While not as powerful a work as Lord of the Rings, Shore has done himself proud with this work.

Yes, I will add for myself that Shore's music hasn't disappointed me at all. That has really meant a lot to me and if there's anything cathartic about all this, it's that there will be no more Howard Shore Middle-earth music. While I listened to all the online streams and leaks and samples for the first two Hobbit films, this is the first time in awhile that I'm holding off on all of that for a score I'm greatly anticipating. It may be buried under sound effects, it may be replaced by LOTR cues but I want to wait for the film on this one, for old times' sake.

So while the Hobbit films disappoint, I'm glad I got on this journey with PJ, and it's hard not to feel nostalgic at this point. If only because I never really got the chance to say goodbye back when RotK ended. I never went through any of that, and I suppose that's what made me all the more frustrated with these films because I was hoping this would have been my chance to experience what that must have been like. But maybe BoFA will give me that in its final scenes. Because LotR does mean a lot to me, both films and books.

Yes, I'm fairly optimistic about the films' final minutes as well. I think even though his focus has largely drifted away from the things I loved about his work ten years ago, Jackson still has that sentimental streak and so I'm hoping that he has the wherewithal to leave us something simple and modest at the end of it all. I don't even care if it feels hollow or hypocritical after 2 hours of nonstop battle, I want my nice little Tolkien ending!

...oh hell, even if it's absurdly cheesy, I'll probably like it.

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I mean, the movies haven't been terrible so far, but they're neither Lord of the Rings nor a film version of the book, so . . . what's the point, exactly?

The book as is is impossible to translate to screen! It's harder to adapt than LOTR! There are so many things wrong, so much to fix...

Well, at least according to PJ.

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Is that what he's saying? Well, it's awfully good of him to lend the professor a hand where his storytelling skills are obviously lacking.

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Is that what he's saying?

Well, not explicitely, obviously, but that's what he seems to be suggesting in the EE documentaries: "That doesn't work... I always find that this was lacking in the book... You just can't do that in a film...".

Now, I get it that not everything that works in a book necessarily works in a film, but in that particular case, listening to PJ, it seems that the whole book simply doesn't work as a film! Then why make an adaptation in the first place? Just leave it as a book!

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