tedfud 38 Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 HelloI'm my rather fab new book from Norman Ludwin on modern compositional techniques he cites an example from Jaws in the "Man against Beast" cue. In measure 5 there is a " hexachord of D,E#,F#,G,A,Bb in the Harp and Diminished string chords " And again in measure 22 their is a second Hex , C#,Eb,E,G,A,Bb . "used for eight measure and scored for harps and piano "...is there a chance these are just two set's rather than a six note set ?all the bestt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filmmusic 1,825 Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 What book is this?edit: oh, it's the book you had talked about that is not available anymore.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted September 26, 2014 Author Share Posted September 26, 2014 no...this one is.....http://www.musicnewapproach.com/#!composition---a-new-approach/cgc7t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I'm my rather fab new book from Norman Ludwin on modern compositional techniques he cites an example from Jaws in the "Man against Beast" cue. In measure 5 there is a " hexachord of D,E#,F#,G,A,Bb in the Harp and Diminished string chords " And again in measure 22 their is a second Hex , C#,Eb,E,G,A,Bb . "used for eight measure and scored for harps and piano "...is there a chance these are just two set's rather than a six note set ?The notes he gives for the first hexachord don't seem to be correct. I get Bb-D#-A-G-D#-C#.Even so, I'd understand both of these as extended uses of tonal materials. To my mind, the first hexachord is best understood as a version of the horn call that appears over the main theme's famous two-note ostinato. There, we had Eb-G-Bb-C#, basically an Eb7 chord. Here, we have that (written enharmonically) plus an extra A, which can be taken as passing between Bb and G, so the original Eb7 still remains strongly intact. And the Stravinskian polytonal feeling is still here too (as it was stated in the main theme) with the chord rubbing dissonantly against the bass note E.The second hexachord is an ostinato from the main theme that wavers between two triads: Eb major and A major. The tritone distance between these two creates a disturbingly unsettled feeling, as though the triads suggest there should be a tonic but obliterate any stability through their tritone relationship. In other words, either Eb or A could be taken as tonic, and as the music wavers between the two, so does our sense of tonic, making us feel as though there is no ground beneath our feet - an apt metaphor for being in the water as helpless prey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Sharky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted September 26, 2014 Author Share Posted September 26, 2014 I'm my rather fab new book from Norman Ludwin on modern compositional techniques he cites an example from Jaws in the "Man against Beast" cue. In measure 5 there is a " hexachord of D,E#,F#,G,A,Bb in the Harp and Diminished string chords " And again in measure 22 their is a second Hex , C#,Eb,E,G,A,Bb . "used for eight measure and scored for harps and piano "...is there a chance these are just two set's rather than a six note set ?The notes he gives for the first hexachord don't seem to be correct. I get Bb-D#-A-G-D#-C#.Even so, I'd understand both of these as extended uses of tonal materials. To my mind, the first hexachord is best understood as a version of the horn call that appears over the main theme's famous two-note ostinato. There, we had Eb-G-Bb-C#, basically an Eb7 chord. Here, we have that (written enharmonically) plus an extra A, which can be taken as passing between Bb and G, so the original Eb7 still remains strongly intact. And the Stravinskian polytonal feeling is still here too (as it was stated in the main theme) with the chord rubbing dissonantly against the bass note E.The second hexachord is an ostinato from the main theme that wavers between two triads: Eb major and A major. The tritone distance between these two creates a disturbingly unsettled feeling, as though the triads suggest there should be a tonic but obliterate any stability through their tritone relationship. In other words, either Eb or A could be taken as tonic, and as the music wavers between the two, so does our sense of tonic, making us feel as though there is no ground beneath our feet - an apt metaphor for being in the water as helpless prey.ok...so they are just re-use of already established material ( albeit with the odd additional interval ) rather than a parallel source of harmony ?t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,511 Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 HelloI'm my rather fab new book from Norman Ludwin on modern compositional techniques he cites an example from Jaws in the "Man against Beast" cue. In measure 5 there is a " hexachord of D,E#,F#,G,A,Bb in the Harp and Diminished string chords " And again in measure 22 their is a second Hex , C#,Eb,E,G,A,Bb . "used for eight measure and scored for harps and piano "...is there a chance these are just two set's rather than a six note set ?all the besttCan anyone provide times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I'm my rather fab new book from Norman Ludwin on modern compositional techniques he cites an example from Jaws in the "Man against Beast" cue. In measure 5 there is a " hexachord of D,E#,F#,G,A,Bb in the Harp and Diminished string chords " And again in measure 22 their is a second Hex , C#,Eb,E,G,A,Bb . "used for eight measure and scored for harps and piano "...is there a chance these are just two set's rather than a six note set ?The notes he gives for the first hexachord don't seem to be correct. I get Bb-D#-A-G-D#-C#.Even so, I'd understand both of these as extended uses of tonal materials. To my mind, the first hexachord is best understood as a version of the horn call that appears over the main theme's famous two-note ostinato. There, we had Eb-G-Bb-C#, basically an Eb7 chord. Here, we have that (written enharmonically) plus an extra A, which can be taken as passing between Bb and G, so the original Eb7 still remains strongly intact. And the Stravinskian polytonal feeling is still here too (as it was stated in the main theme) with the chord rubbing dissonantly against the bass note E.The second hexachord is an ostinato from the main theme that wavers between two triads: Eb major and A major. The tritone distance between these two creates a disturbingly unsettled feeling, as though the triads suggest there should be a tonic but obliterate any stability through their tritone relationship. In other words, either Eb or A could be taken as tonic, and as the music wavers between the two, so does our sense of tonic, making us feel as though there is no ground beneath our feet - an apt metaphor for being in the water as helpless prey.ok...so they are just re-use of already established material ( albeit with the odd additional interval ) rather than a parallel source of harmony ?tBasically. And the elephant in the room here is of course the octatonic (or diminished) scale, which is the source of most of the harmony in JAWS (including the major chords a tritone apart first heard with Chrissie's swim) . Ludwig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Looking at passage he quotes, I can't see any diminished chords. There's a sustained tremolo Eb Major chord in second inversion in the violins and violas along with a polytonal E pedal in the cellos and basses. Maybe he missed out the b accidental? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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