What makes a great Williams score for you?

[Ludwig 1,120]

In Steef's recent threads on a favorite Williams score per decade, I've noticed that debates seem to be based on prioritizing different elements of a score. For example, some call JP's action writing "chaotic" while for others, it's "more concise". Or Superman's score turns "dull" after the first two acts whereas others find the entire score "perfect". While some have indicated what makes each of these and other scores great for them, many times it's not clear why one likes or dislikes scores or parts of scores. But the reasoning I have seen is great stuff, so I'd like to broaden the discussion here by asking...

What makes a great Williams score for you?

[Datameister 2,037]

If the question were simply "what makes a great score for you", it would actually be a lot harder to answer. Narrowing it down to just Williams scores already ensures that we're dealing with a musical language that I find inherently pleasing. I've never heard a Williams score I actually disliked, and even my least favorites have things I respect and enjoy about them.

But there definitely are scores that stand out as great in his oeuvre for me. Two of the easiest examples for me to point to are ESB and ROTLA. One thing they have in common with most of my favorite Williams scores is thematic richness. Quality is rather more important than quantity - once you've got three or four solid melodic ideas, you get diminishing returns for anything more. A great theme is moving, memorable, and adaptable. Those things are hard to quantify, but I know 'em when I hear 'em.

These great themes are woven together into a sort of loose fabric that holds a great Williams score together. But all the other material matters, too. A great Williams score is filled with interesting non-thematic ideas that leave you hungering for more. And variety is really important to me, too. The scores I love tend to feature significant variation in tempo, orchestration, volume, and mood. There may be action setpieces, comedic scherzos, dramatic underscore, avant-garde horror elements, jazzy interludes, you name it. In fact, I think I'd rather have a score that's a little too scatterbrained than one that's a little too monotonous.

That being said, I do hear a certain artistic unity or integrity in most of my favorite Williams scores. They feel like a cohesive whole that somehow aspires to be more than just background music in a movie. Again, very difficult to quantify this or even describe it in especially precise terms. It's more a feeling than anything else.

[Hlao-roo 389]

What makes a great Williams score for you?

Off the top of my head...

Mindful enough to preserve a sound structural foundation, but daring enough to flirt with chaos. Modest enough to sublimate the composer's artistic impulses in service of the film's larger goals but opportunistic enough to establish the role of music in the foreground as well as the background. Introspective enough to convey a scene's subtext and context but demonstrative enough to elevate and to reinforce.

Just some ideas. Ultimately, I would defer to an expert like Brian Eno who has decades of musical experience to bring to bear on the question of what kind of music truly adds to or detracts from a film.

[publicist 4,643]

First, a killer theme (though i gladly take 2 or 3) and second, enough room to decorate musically. Which can mean a big 2-hour candy store like HOOK or just one defining scene (like THE EARLY DAYS from BotFoJ).

Often (and that goes for every other film composer, too) i just feel bedazzled by one certain cue, JAWS 2's end credits, for instance and can do without the rest of the score. Just too much music on god's earth to indulge in the same scores again and again, which is one of the more puzzling hallmarks of some fellow board member's posts here.

And, apart from some, ahem, Key examples like Quintie's much beloved forest chase from E. T. or all those gaudy fantasy ballets, i actually can do without most Williams pure action cues as i find them indeed often overly busy and dense - he's no Tiomkin (thank god for that) but he has a tendency to overwrite.

[King Mark 3,626]

One score that seems to be missing the correct mixture of ingredients is Tintin. There's a few things that prevents it from being up there with other Williams scores of the same style.

[Quintus 5,399]

Yeah I like the score, but the themes, whilst decent, aren't really as strong as I'd like them to be. The big set-pieces aren't of vintage quality either. I know a lot here raved about the falcon chase, and it was thrilling along with the scene, but I haven't a clue what it sounds like a few years later. Having said that I do love and remember the cool intro to it as we see the long wide shot of Tintin and Haddock hurtling down the hill on the bike, that writing sounds like something straight out of Raiders.

For me a great Williams score has a powerful sense of pathos and narrative completion by the time the end credits roll. I think he's the grand master of musical storytelling when he wants to be, so if I subconsciously hear the telltale signs in the way he knits his thematic and harmonic ideas together, if I can feel myself being manipulated and affected by his purposeful sleight of hand; the film I'm watching on screen will no doubt be a beautifully cathartic experience for me during its final reel. I definitely like a strong harmonic sound in my music, but it's worth adding that the emotional reactions mentioned aren't necessarily consistent with the big sweeping and operatic Williams signatures. I'll as well be just as affected by the moody noire of the The Long Goodbye as I will the playful antics of Catch Me if You Can - the key aspect of both is that despite their different approach they are still strong harmonically, they still tell an intrinsic musical story, the narrative of which is built seamlessly into each and every cue.

[pete 906]

I'm slowly progressing as a piano player from an absolute beginner a few years ago. Attempting Williams pieces on piano has certainly increased my appreciation for John's music. Two recent examples are The Blue and the Grey from Lincoln and The Book Thief's opening piano piece. Those are two themes I would have appreciated anyway, but playing them on piano has increased my appreciation and enjoyment of those pieces a hundred-fold. So for me what makes a Williams score great is the ingredient that I fell in love with: expertly crafted and beautifully harmonized melodies.

[karelm 2,903]

For me, what makes a great Williams score is his long range structural transformation, perfect pacing, and subtext. For example, with both ET and Close Enounters, they start off with a great sense of mystery and some primal fear of the unknown. By the half way mark, we have a sense of adventure and some of the melodies are starting to take over the fear. It is now a hero's quest. By the end, the scores have a transformational quality as the characters (Elliot or Roy) have come to their full realization of their character's nature through an epiphany of the life changing events that have happened to them during the course of the story. The music perfectly evolves as the characters do. It doesn't just reflect the drama, it is transformed along with them and builds to an explosive climax where all the thematic material is finally heard in its fullest and most ideal form.

Regarding the pacing, this doesn't happen too quickly, it happens as the story develops and the characters go on their journey. The music might hint at a harmonic progression at the start, perhaps a few notes of the theme are heard but as it proceeds, a we get more glimpses of the greatness to come, through the orchestration and further thematic/harmonic development we get more and by the end, it is now in full orchestral glory that had only been hinted at earlier.

Regarding subtext, the music has an ability to describe something that words cannot. For example, the feelings in Superman when he leaves smallville. I believe the words used in the scene do not addequately contain the emotions of the scene. Similarly, when Jorel says goodbye to his son, the mixture of hope, pride, dispair, fear, angst, innocense all in seconds is so perfectly captured by the score so the chacters can just read their lines. The aid of the music helps tell what is really going on. The inner battle of Darth Vader as Luke gets attacked by the Emperer in Return of the Jedi as another example (this is before the duplicative "no...Nooo...Noooooooo!" voice over edit was added). But I think all this added with the unshakably memorable themes and harmony, plus craftsmanship all make him more than just a great film composer...it all combines to make him a timeless and brilliantly effective composer.

[Datameister 2,037]

Mindful enough to preserve a sound structural foundation, but daring enough to flirt with chaos. Modest enough to sublimate the composer's artistic impulses in service of the film's larger goals but opportunistic enough to establish the role of music in the foreground as well as the background. Introspective enough to convey a scene's subtext and context but demonstrative enough to elevate and to reinforce.

Well said.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Themes! Many themes!

[Hlao-roo 389]

In Steef's recent threads on a favorite Williams score per decade, I've noticed that debates seem to be based on prioritizing different elements of a score. For example, some call JP's action writing "chaotic" while for others, it's "more concise".

Some listeners, such as the IFMCA's James Southall, have been outspoken in embracing the supposed "chaos" of Williams's post-Jurassic Park action writing. A majority voice, nonetheless, attaches great importance to structure, coherence, and cohesion. It seems that in gauging the relative presence or absence of such attributes, different listeners are paying attention to different elements in the music.

[publicist 4,643]

Sounds too esoterical for me. Williams, especially post-JP, has written action music that IMHO still sounds somewhat old-fashioned, just more dissonant. What turns me off isn't a lack of structure or coherence, rather that the music sounds like Waxman with some electronic topping. This kind of music just sounds more cool and modern by way of Don Davis or Goldenthal.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

A great Williams score (or, any score for that matter) for me has a core idea that really means something, is written in a musical idiom that is close to the composer's own inherent voice and isn't too contrived or adapted to fit its cinematic surroundings, and it makes me think twice about listening due to the emotional/psychological commitment that listening to it entails.

[publicist 4,643]

I. e.?

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

A.I. !

[publicist 4,643]

That's not really an idiom close to Williams's (nor is it written in one idiom), the most William-sy music is ironically the dry first quarter.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Listen to Heartwood enough times and you will see the truth.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

A great score gets in your head without being stuck in your head.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Well said!

[Hlao-roo 389]

A great score gets in your head without being stuck in your head.

So if it does both it's less great?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I can't think of any great music that gets stuck in my head.

So I cannot answer your questions.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I can't think of any great music that gets stuck in my head.

So I cannot answer your questions.

No prob, just wondering.

This kind of music just sounds more cool and modern by way of Don Davis or Goldenthal.

Too bad they've vanished off the face of the earth.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Hollywood's biggest crime: driving away some of the most exceptional composers it's been presented with.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Hollywood's biggest crime: driving away some of the most exceptional composers it's been presented with.

And I have to say, from a listener standpoint, it's even more frustrating for those of who are less receptive to the prevailing trends in Hollywood right now.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Boom-tzz.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Boom-tzz.

/thread

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Hollywood's biggest crime: driving away some of the most exceptional composers it's been presented with.

And I have to say, from a listener standpoint, it's even more frustrating for those of who are less receptive to the prevailing trends in Hollywood right now.

Apart from Zimmerman, I don't think Grey is either.

[Hlao-roo 389]

What makes a great Williams score for you?

What makes a great Williams score for Ludwig?

[Ludwig 1,120]

For me, a great Williams score is like a great film: you keep noticing little things you never noticed before, or simply revel in rediscovering what it was you always loved about it.

The themes of a great Williams score are so adroitly sculpted that, even without the film, they give a vivid picture of the very thing they represent. There are transformations of themes that evoke emotions that, whether positive or negative, run counter to that of their definitive form and yet sound completely convincing. And within the film itself, a crucial narrative event is highlighted by a full version of a theme that is not necessarily climactic, but always memorably moving.

There are plenty of orchestrations that lend a pleasing familiarity of emotion (e.g., low brass for evil characters), but there are a handful of moments that give us something different and unexpected that makes an indelible stamp on our memory, like the beautiful piccolo solo at the end of the Star Wars main title as the opening crawl drifts off into space.

At a few key moments, whether consciously or subconsciously, Williams' choice of harmony sends a shiver of delight down one's spine, like the last few chords in the bridge (B section) of the Superman march that sets up the big statement of the fanfare, this one here: http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23141&p=898869.

The musical styles appearing in the score are varied, but share aspects that allow seamless shifts between one another. A passage blending elements of late romanticism, jazz, extended tonality, classical Hollywood, and modernism may move suddenly into a fiercely modernist passage while giving the impression of stylistic continuity. And a great score usually has a kick-ass march or militaristic scoring, even if in a subdued way like Parade of the Ewoks.

But most of all, a great Williams score expresses the emotional implications of the film so well that it has a feeling of bewildering, awe-inspiring inevitability, as though nothing else would have worked quite as well, but it is difficult to say exactly why.

[publicist 4,643]

Listen to Heartwood enough times and you will see the truth.

But it suspiciously sounds like the first quarter of A. I. ! (with some Ma cello embellishments).

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Yeah. You've gotta get more familiar with it to start hearing the other three quarters.

[publicist 4,643]

I have better things to do than to listen to HEARTWOOD thrice a day. I appreciate A. I. very much (who wouldn't? except for KM and Joey, of course) but it still mirrors the clusterfuck of a movie for better or worse. The only thing in A. I. i dislike is the downtrodden chorus courtesy of EOTS and JURASSIC PARK that he uses in this one long cue (forgot the name). Why must this stuff always sound the same?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Zimmer's biggest crime: driving away some of the most exceptional composers Hollywood's been presented with.

[King Mark 3,626]

Hey I like A.I. very much (movie and score). It's one of JW's minor masterpieces

Not crazy about Heartwood though

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

A.I. can be enjoyed in a three-minute suite arranged by John Williams in 1993 called Hatching Baby Raptor.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

The only thing in A. I. i dislike is the downtrodden chorus courtesy of EOTS and JURASSIC PARK that he uses in this one long cue (forgot the name). Why must this stuff always sound the same?

Er, it doesn't. Unlike EOTS and JP the writing for the choir (not a chorus) is polyphonic. And about the film being a 'clusterfuck'... I don't even know where to begin with that.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

AI is best enjoyed out of sight out of mind.

[Wojo 2,453]

What's Heartwood? Rosewood plus Heartbeeps?

[Hlao-roo 389]

What's Heartwood? Rosewood plus Heartbeeps?

No, that's Rosebeeps.

[indy4 155]

Great thread. I'd add two points to this discussion:

1) For me, the best Williams scores are the ones that are light on repetition. Williams is a very thematic composer, and as a result he often relies on variations of themes for many cues in a score. That's fine; my problem is when these variations are both numerous and almost identical. A great example is Presumed Innocent - each cue on its own is good or great, but when placed together in an album, there's too much material that is not significantly different. Not only is this redundant, but it also risks permanently damaging the emotional effect of a certain theme or variation.

Williams is able to avoid this pitfall in thematically varied scores, like the Star Wars saga, Hook, Rosewood, etc. I wouldn't say I require a JW score to be thematically varied for the sake of thematic variety, but often times that is the only way JW can write a score that avoids redundant thematic variations while still relying heavily on thematic material. Granted, there are a few scores that have a relatively small number of themes but still manage to avoid redundancy (ie Memoirs of a Geisha, Monsignor).

2) The other thing I would add: my favorite scores are typically the ones that are both accessible and subtle. I think the latter is often mis-used. I consider scores like ESB or E.T. to be subtle works; they contain intricacies that can only be discovered if one is really examining these works closely. Of course, you can miss 100% of these subtleties and still love the score, and there's nothing wrong with that. But what I prefer is a score that I can enjoy, regardless of whether I'm in the mood to be analytical and penetrating or if I just want an emotional and visceral ride. I also love the less accessible stuff, both concert works and film scores. But if I'm mentally exhausted one day and I just want to relax, I'll pop in Hook over Memoirs of a Geisha; on a day where I'm in the mood to really examine the intricacies and subtleties of a piece of music, either of those would work.

[Thor 7,474]

If there is an appearance of his "religious sound".

[publicist 4,643]

The only thing in A. I. i dislike is the downtrodden chorus courtesy of EOTS and JURASSIC PARK that he uses in this one long cue (forgot the name). Why must this stuff always sound the same?

Er, it doesn't. Unlike EOTS and JP the writing for the choir (not a chorus) is polyphonic. And about the film being a 'clusterfuck'... I don't even know where to begin with that.

Same sound, same recipe. And the ape love for this movie (it is, after all, only a movie) that is treated like a fucking religious deity round here by some, is just silly.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

The only thing in A. I. i dislike is the downtrodden chorus courtesy of EOTS and JURASSIC PARK that he uses in this one long cue (forgot the name). Why must this stuff always sound the same?

Er, it doesn't. Unlike EOTS and JP the writing for the choir (not a chorus) is polyphonic. And about the film being a 'clusterfuck'... I don't even know where to begin with that.

Same sound, same recipe.

Not really.

And the ape love for this movie (it is, after all, only a movie) that is treated like a fucking religious deity round here by some, is just silly.

That's just hyperbole. Sure, Mike, Karol, myself and a small handful of others are big fans of the film and score, but it ends at that.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

A.I. is Kubrick's best film next to Eyes Wide Shut.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

LOL Pub is such a miserable shit sometimes.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Sometimes?

[publicist 4,643]

That's just hyperbole. Sure, Mike, Karol, myself and a small handful of others are big fans of the film and score, but it ends at that.

Is it really? I really don't care that much beyond these threads but i usually am a rather keen observer of the semantics people use to describe certain films and A. I. is a movie that, without much sufficient explanation, is often referred to in vague supernatural terms that betray a devotion to it that comes across as a bit peculiar, or to be more precise it feels like some people try to pass off good 'ole simple affection for it as something much more deep and meaningful.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

That's just hyperbole. Sure, Mike, Karol, myself and a small handful of others are big fans of the film and score, but it ends at that.

Is it really? I really don't care that much beyond these threads but i usually am a rather keen observer of the semantics people use to describe certain films and A. I. is a movie that, without much sufficient explanation, is often referred to in vague supernatural terms that betray a devotion to it that comes across as a bit peculiar, or to be more precise it feels like some people try to pass off good 'ole simple affection for it as something much more deep and meaningful.

Sounds like you're describing Mike, and Mike alone.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Well Pub, I don't try to pass off anything as anything it's not, but I wouldn't presume to tell you what you know about how I think. You're obviously a master of internet psychology.

But here, I'll see if I can't offer some "sufficient explanation" for you. It is a "deep and meaningful" film for me - there's nothing to be "betrayed" as though I've ever tried to hide how I feel about it. It was integral to my understanding of what I wanted to do with my life (mostly through the score). It's part of the legacy of a director who I hold in the highest regard and offers an almost uniquely tender insight into his mind. And it's a story that I find compelling, despite some wooden performances and dodgy writing. It's a satisfying emotional journey for me. And I'm deeply sorry that you don't feel the same way, but please, enough of the insufferably pretentious bullshit where you just can't understand why someone likes something that you don't.

Oh, and describing things in vague supernatural terms is just how I roll.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

LOL Pub is such a German sometimes