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Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets -- Score Appreciation Thread


Josh500

The Chamber of Secrets -- Score Appreciation Thread  

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  1. 1. How would you rate the track on the OS album "Fawkes the Phoenix"?

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  2. 2. How would you rate the track on the OS album "The Chamber of Secrets"?

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  3. 3. How would you rate the track on the OS album "Dobby the House Elf"?

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  4. 4. How would you rate the Original Soundtrack Album of "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"?

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Oh yea, totally agreed the Chamber theme should have been used during all those initial scenes in the chamber leading up to the big basilisk battle. Would the Theme itself have made a good villain theme during the battle? Maybe!

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It appears three or four times. The chamber of secrests theme, I mean. Watched the movie a few months back and was surprised that it actually makes an more than one appearance, contrary to what people say.

Karol

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It's used throughout the film when people discuss the chamber or a new student is killed, etc. But once they actually open the chamber and enter it, the theme isn't used

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The concert arrangement proves that it could have been used effectively in the final scenes in the chamber in a more powerful way than the early film cues, but I guess it wasn't meant to be :(

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It's William Ross' fault. I tell ya!

Karol

:lol:

_______

I am listening to "The Chamber of Secrets" now, and at 1:52 is where it really picks up, with that lone "trumpet call," as it were, as if to grab everybody's attention...

The best part if of course 2:08 - 2:28. This is really mind-blowingly, spine-chillingly good. Listen to the urgent dominant strings, the frantic brass section in the background, the glissading harps, etc. Only the LSO could have played it this well, too.

Listening to this, it occurs to me that probably only JW has the ability to write something this complex, well-orchestrated, and dramatic at the same time...

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I feel like the relatively minor Chamber motif was something that Williams ended up liking enough to flesh out a bit and form a concert arrangement. It's definitely not a major part of the score. A major part of a couple cues, yes.

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Data, what makes Dobby's theme annoying? I like it quite a bit, but I'm just curious. Is it the flourishy-ness? the quirky string counterpoint when the horn section has the melody? The sudden and somewhat jarring key change near the end?

Only a personal opinion, of course, but I can't stand the melody itself. There's something about it that really rubs me the wrong way, especially the part near the end of the melody that's reminiscent (in a very strange, twisted way) of "Star of Bethlehem."

Overall, COS is a score that's grown on me immensely, at least when it's bringing new music to the table. There's some really great stuff in there, even if it is mixed in with an unbelievable amount of reused material from SS and elsewhere. But I can't get myself to enjoy "Dobby's Theme."

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I feel like the relatively minor Chamber motif was something that Williams ended up liking enough to flesh out a bit and form a concert arrangement.

The guy does that for the Chamber motif, and he doesn't even do that for Tintin's theme? He's freaking stupid!

Data, what makes Dobby's theme annoying? I like it quite a bit, but I'm just curious. Is it the flourishy-ness? the quirky string counterpoint when the horn section has the melody? The sudden and somewhat jarring key change near the end?

Only a personal opinion, of course, but I can't stand the melody itself. There's something about it that really rubs me the wrong way.

I noticed there are a lot of things that "rub you the wrong way"

Not me. Doyle had some good ideas, but on the whole, that score just irritates me. Particularly as a standalone listening experience. His action music rubs me the wrong way

Those scores do have some good themes. I can't claim to know the whole catalog of 'em, but I'm very familiar with the major themes, and I love the fellowship theme and the music for the hobbits, for instance. But the Gondor theme just rubs me the wrong way.

I never even bothered to finish CutThroat Island. Terrible film. Worse than Hook. If some enjoy it as a guilty pleasure, more power to ya, but I can't do it. I also have mixed feelings about the score, and seeing the first half of the film didn't help. I appreciate its traditional orchestral swashbucklingness, but it's just so annoyingly...big. Doesn't let up very often, and when it does, the quieter music rubs me the wrong way somehow.

No, but seriously, something about the editing and writing in TDK makes it extremely difficult for me to track what's going on. I'm constantly thinking, Wait, what just happened? What did he say? And then on the macro scale, something about creating AND (ostensibly) killing Two-Face in the second half of the same film really rubs me the wrong way.

I like the Chrono Cross stuff, although I've heard another arrangement that I preferred. As for the Zelda stuff...well, I'm sorry, but one of the themes that crops up so often in that arrangement really rubs me the wrong way.

I'm sure that if someone had a rubber stick, and rubbed you the right way with it, you'd still feel that something rubs you the wrong way.

WOW.

:lol:

That theme definitely kicks ass. One of the best parts of the score is when Dobby is freed.

YES!

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Does anyone think that the Fawkes Theme should have reappeared one more time in Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince after Dumbledore dies and Fawkes flies off? I really thought it was horrible that it didn't come back even just for a few seconds or a tiny tip of the hat!

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I was thinking the same thing! But then again, there were a LOT of missed thematic opportunities with those last films to resurrect past themes, a big shame.

I'm sure we would have gotten that nod if Williams had scored that last film.

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It was SUCH a huge shame! It has gone down in history as probably the most sorely missed spot in the history of thematic opportunities. I think John should score movies 4 through 8 and offer them as an alternative track or something. It would be interesting to see what his plans were when he thought that he was going to be on board for the entire journey. I'm sure he has to have something somewhere.... sketches for future movies... etc... You don't just jump into these epic serial sagas blindly...

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I suppose you could be right... but usually you have multiple sketches of things that could be used for things later on. Even if they are just for dramatic content or other ideas that didn't quite make it into the finished films, they can be utilized later. Sagas like Harry Potter tend to evolve, and sometimes it's a good idea to have a few hole cards to insert later on. It's just too bad JW got ousted after three films.

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I don't think he was ousted, I think he decided to leave.

Different directors and JWs schedule must have played a part too in him not composing for the later films.
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I heard that the director of Goblet of Fire wanted to take the score into a "different direction" and was looking for a more modern approach instead of a classic sweeping, neo-romantic style score.

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Well I can't say he entirely succeeded in modernizing when hired Doyle for the job. :P

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I'm just glad he didn't go with Hans Zimmer.... :)

Well yes now there is a small mercy if there ever was one.
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Anyway, I was definitely moved by "Fawkes the Phoenix", especially the tender moment in "Fawkes is Reborn". Also, "Reunion of Friends" makes me feel like a child every time I hear it. That short flute motif always gets me...

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I heard that the director of Goblet of Fire wanted to take the score into a "different direction" and was looking for a more modern approach instead of a classic sweeping, neo-romantic style score.

John Williams wasn't ousted. He would have scored Goblet of Fire, but he was far too busy. Keep in mind that it was 2005 at the time. He had Memoirs of a Geisha, Munich, War of the Worlds and Revenge of the Sith...there was no way he could have handled the Potter film on top of that, so he decided to drop the project. Since then, his schedules never really opened up to cooperate for the followinf films...

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I heard that the director of Goblet of Fire wanted to take the score into a "different direction" and was looking for a more modern approach instead of a classic sweeping, neo-romantic style score.

John Williams wasn't ousted. He would have scored Goblet of Fire, but he was far too busy. Keep in mind that it was 2005 at the time. He had Memoirs of a Geisha, Munich, War of the Worlds and Revenge of the Sith...there was no way he could have handled the Potter film on top of that, so he decided to drop the project. Since then, his schedules never really opened up to cooperate for the followinf films...

I don't think that could have been the only reason, I mean the next film was 2007, what was John doing then? Just concert writing I suppose. And the next was 2009, he only had Tintin then. Of course War Horse got in the way for the last one but I'm sure if they really cared about getting him back they would have got him. Didin't I read somewhere that David Yates wouldn't show John a rough cut of the film for a really silly reason? Something like pride or whatever.

It was SUCH a huge shame! It has gone down in history as probably the most sorely missed spot in the history of thematic opportunities. I think John should score movies 4 through 8 and offer them as an alternative track or something. It would be interesting to see what his plans were when he thought that he was going to be on board for the entire journey. I'm sure he has to have something somewhere.... sketches for future movies... etc... You don't just jump into these epic serial sagas blindly...

I completely agree. It would have been a wonderful moment. And I wish they kept on one of Voldemort's themes. I think the more subtle one, rather than the 7 note repeated theme, would have worked so well in the 'darker' later films. The theme that's played in the brass at 1.25 in 'The Face Of Voldemort'. And who knows, John Williams would have probably developed one of themes into something simmiliar but more fitting for the other films. And yes I want them re-scored. It should happen.

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I heard that the director of Goblet of Fire wanted to take the score into a "different direction" and was looking for a more modern approach instead of a classic sweeping, neo-romantic style score.

John Williams wasn't ousted. He would have scored Goblet of Fire, but he was far too busy. Keep in mind that it was 2005 at the time. He had Memoirs of a Geisha, Munich, War of the Worlds and Revenge of the Sith...there was no way he could have handled the Potter film on top of that, so he decided to drop the project. Since then, his schedules never really opened up to cooperate for the followinf films...

I don't think that could have been the only reason, I mean the next film was 2007, what was John doing then? Just concert writing I suppose. And the next was 2009, he only had Tintin then. Of course War Horse got in the way for the last one but I'm sure if they really cared about getting him back they would have got him. Didin't I read somewhere that David Yates wouldn't show John a rough cut of the film for a really silly reason? Something like pride or whatever.

Here's the problem, when Williams left on his own accord for the 4th Potter film, it gave directors the freedom to pick any composer they'd like. David Yates (not a big fan of this guy) is the kind of guy who likes subtle music and although Williams can master subtelty like none other, I'm not sure Yates felt that way, so he stuck with Hooper. However, studios definitely wanted Williams onboard, but Yates just got his way. Had Williams stayed on for the fourth film, I'm certain Yates would feel obligated to have him score the following films as well. There were talks after all of John Williams' and David Yates' interest in cooperating together for the last Potter film...alas, the maestro was just too busy with Tintin and War Horse (I think...). Well thats a theory of mine anyways, I'm probably wrong.

Had Williams not left the fourth film, we might have had 8 Potter scores for the maestro, but it wasn't meant to be.

Of course, theres also the unspoken law that Williams never returns to a franchise that he left. :P

It was SUCH a huge shame! It has gone down in history as probably the most sorely missed spot in the history of thematic opportunities. I think John should score movies 4 through 8 and offer them as an alternative track or something. It would be interesting to see what his plans were when he thought that he was going to be on board for the entire journey. I'm sure he has to have something somewhere.... sketches for future movies... etc... You don't just jump into these epic serial sagas blindly...

I completely agree. It would have been a wonderful moment. And I wish they kept on one of Voldemort's themes. I think the more subtle one, rather than the 7 note repeated theme, would have worked so well in the 'darker' later films. The theme that's played in the brass at 1.25 in 'The Face Of Voldemort'. And who knows, John Williams would have probably developed one of themes into something simmiliar but more fitting for the other films. And yes I want them re-scored. It should happen.

I was always frustrated with the discontinuation of Williams' Voldemort theme. It could have een developed to fantastic levels, and there were so many moments where I would have loved to hear Williams' theme blast on the speakers. While I enjoyed Doyle's theme for Voldemort, I really felt Williams' was far better and should have been continued :(

Hedwig. It is a well established fcat that Williams passed on GoF so he could do Memoirs of a Geisha, a project he had been attached to for some years.

I believe he was referring to my last sentence where I said that Williams was to busy to score the films after the fourth film. He was wondering why Williams didn't return after GoF.

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Hooper's scores are not any more subtle than Williams'. I think Yates just enjoyed working with his friend and wanted to continue the tradition. And on top of that, I think Williams lost interest in the franchise after he left. There are rumors that he did not enjoy working on the third one, he wasn't really busy when any of the other films were released after GoF, and the producers very much wanted him back.

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Hooper's scores are not any more subtle than Williams'. I think Yates just enjoyed working with his friend and wanted to continue the tradition. And on top of that, I think Williams lost interest in the franchise after he left. There are rumors that he did not enjoy working on the third one, he wasn't really busy when any of the other films were released after GoF, and the producers very much wanted him back.

I think you're right about Yates wanting to work with his friend. Thats probably the most likely reason, and its possible Williams lost interest. Although he did say he might be interested in coming back for the final film, but his schedule didn't open up.

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As an amateur composer, it seems to me that it would be very difficult to just be disinterested in returning, knowing that such a missed opportunity would have taken place. This would have been an opportunity for musical and thematic development that would have been bigger than even that of all six Star Wars movies, and without the 20 year gap in between. It would be hard for ANY composer to pass that up, even one as prolific as John Williams. The only thing that makes sense to me is that he was either ousted because David Yates thought he was washed up (idiot), or that they didn't like each other or something along those lines. If Williams wasn't interested in scoring all 8 films, he wouldn't have chosen to score the first three.

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As an amateur composer, it seems to me that it would be very difficult to just be disinterested in returning, knowing that such a missed opportunity would have taken place. This would have been an opportunity for musical and thematic development that would have been bigger than even that of all six Star Wars movies, and without the 20 year gap in between. It would be hard for ANY composer to pass that up, even one as prolific as John Williams. The only thing that makes sense to me is that he was either ousted because David Yates thought he was washed up (idiot), or that they didn't like each other or something along those lines. If Williams wasn't interested in scoring all 8 films, he wouldn't have chosen to score the first three.

I don't think you can tell right from the starts whether you want to commit yourself to 8 movies right off the bat! Maybe an amateur or a beginner, sure (because this is such a big franchise), but certainly not a veteran composer like JW.

Also, I am pretty sure that JW decided to leave himself because of 1. conflicting schedules, 2. departure of Chris Columbus, and 3. (and here I am speculating) his own disillusionment with the franchise. He wanted to move on, that's all.

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If you look at all the alternate tracks that were composed for PoA it becomes clear that there certainly was more effort involved than with the other Potter scores. Also JW composed outside of his comfort zone but this resulted in his best score since TPM and one of his best ever. I think JW may have had a harder time during the working process but in the end i am sure he is proud of the final score.

I asume that scheduling conflicts prevented him from doing GoF.

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Also JW composed outside of his comfort zone but this resulted in his best score since TPM and one of his best ever.

Like he did with Schindler's List, Angela's Ashes, Far and Away, Empire of the Sun, Home Alone, Sabrina, etc. etc.?

This is a fantastic score, sure, but IMO not better than PS!

... in the end i am sure he is proud of the final score.

That's for sure. :)

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Hooper's scores are not any more subtle than Williams'. I think Yates just enjoyed working with his friend and wanted to continue the tradition. And on top of that, I think Williams lost interest in the franchise after he left. There are rumors that he did not enjoy working on the third one, he wasn't really busy when any of the other films were released after GoF, and the producers very much wanted him back.

Yes, I don't think there was any ill will toward Williams on Yates's part. It's important to remember that up until getting offered HP, Yates had a very modest background in film/TV, and he was hired seemingly on a whim by David Heyman. It was an absurdly lucky break, and I think Yates recognized this, and felt that his regular collaborators were no less deserving to work on it than he was. Maybe if John Williams had scored GOF then Yates would not have felt within his rights to replace him, and would have kept him on as he did with other HP regulars like Stuart Craig. But as it was, there was a vacancy in the composer slot to fill, and Yates already had a regular composer who he had a great relationship with and who had scored everything he had ever done, apparently even going back to film school. If Spielberg had been offered a Star Trek sequel, would he have gone out of his way to bring back Jerry Goldsmith?

Didin't I read somewhere that David Yates wouldn't show John a rough cut of the film for a really silly reason? Something like pride or whatever.

I believe the problem was that JW would have had to work to a very early rough cut of the film, which would have resulted in a lot of issues and complications due to ongoing changes in the edit, and it didn't seem like they would have been able to have a whole lot of communication during the process, due to his schedule. And yes, I think he did also mention that it would have been a bit embarrassing to show a very early cut of a movie to someone like John Williams.

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Perhaps Yates, in his "green-ness" as a filmmaker, just wanted to do things that he was used to. Use modern methods of filmmaking, which includes how the score is presented. Maybe that's what he's comfortable doing. JW still handwrites his scores and works out his timings old school. The question really comes down to: Did Yates ask JW and JW turned it down? Or did Yates not even ask him? If the studio wanted him back so badly, it would seem that it would be a forgone conclusion that he would be back unless Yates stood in the way and said no way, or John walked away. As excited as John seems to be about revisiting music and developing things further, (he talks about it all the time in interviews over this process) it seems so unlikely to me that he would have just walked. Even as modest as he is, he has to know that his contribution to the HP series is a significant one. I mean, his score and themes are the ones used for source music in promotions and trailers. You hardly hear Harry Potter music outside of the films from anywhere else but John Williams.

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Perhaps Yates, in his "green-ness" as a filmmaker, just wanted to do things that he was used to. Use modern methods of filmmaking, which includes how the score is presented. Maybe that's what he's comfortable doing. JW still handwrites his scores and works out his timings old school. The question really comes down to: Did Yates ask JW and JW turned it down? Or did Yates not even ask him? If the studio wanted him back so badly, it would seem that it would be a forgone conclusion that he would be back unless Yates stood in the way and said no way, or John walked away. As excited as John seems to be about revisiting music and developing things further, (he talks about it all the time in interviews over this process) it seems so unlikely to me that he would have just walked. Even as modest as he is, he has to know that his contribution to the HP series is a significant one. I mean, his score and themes are the ones used for source music in promotions and trailers. You hardly hear Harry Potter music outside of the films from anywhere else but John Williams.

The studios also wanted the composers for the films to use Williams' iconic themes more often...but that never happened. Interestingly enough, there are times where the studios don't win.

Also, I think Williams would have preferred to have stayed on for the whole franchise, but since he left for the fourth one, I don't think he really saw any reason to come back and finish off a franchise which has had its fair share from other composers, you know what I mean?

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I can just imagine an old man approaching 80 feverishly awaiting the reels of new HARRY POTTER franchise movies - a lifelong dream, finally fulfilled. Seriously...

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Doesn't anybody think that the score for PoA was a transitional development to be further realized in later scores for later movies? It makes perfect sense that one would like GoF better; a lot more happens in the film. There are many more arrival points. PoA as a film is VERY transitional, and so is the score. When I listen to the score, it just sounds like the third movement to me, which would have developed further and actually arrived in the fourth. So much builds up to the end of the fourth film, and since JW didn't have the opportunity to finish the idea, having Patrick Doyle finish it for him with a complete departure in style and themes really causes the buildup to be disjunct. Of course this is just my opinion. I'm sure that JW would have at least been prepared in the back of his mind for the opportunity of doing all 8 films. You don't just say, "Hmmm, 7 books... I think I'll just do a couple with some amazing themes and then leave it up to someone else to take the rest over, and whatever happens, happens." Actually, as I type it, maybe it IS possible for him to have thought that. He's never really done that in the past though. Just clipped his commitment short like that? Still seems weird.

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It does its own thing. I don't think it was a transitionary score per se, but it is different. Williams delivered what the director wanted and what he felt best suited the picture. This involved dropping thematic material from the earlier scores and migrating from the established style of those scores. Chamber is very clearly a continuation of Sorcerer's Stone. Azkaban not so much. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I just think I prefer the earlier ones.

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I absolutely prefer the earlier ones too. I'm actually quite surprised how much people pan CoS... It's actually my favorite of all 8. PoA is definitely different, and at first I didn't like it at all. However, it really grew on me. Now I kind of think of it as a refined transition; the film is very much that way too. I think perhaps it takes time to appreciate it, or maybe I'm just slow. But it is nothing, nor will it ever be, as great as CoS in my eyes.

Incidentally, I'd just like to reiterate here that the guy who is flaunting the Chamber of Secrets Recording Sessions on YouTube needs to really come forward and give us all a chance... He's got one of my holy grails....

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