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The Battle of the Five Armies SPOILERS ALLOWED Discussion Thread


gkgyver

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When I log on tomorrow other people will have seen the film and will point out faults in everything I have said about the film. My 15 minutes of fame will be over. :(

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When I log on tomorrow other people will have seen the film and will point out faults in everything I have said about the film. My 15 minutes of fame will be over. :(

Nonsense. Stay on and dispute everyone who disagrees with you. It's honestly a blast.

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Stunning, like in DoS

So no prologue for the first time, the film picks up where DoS left of and deals with Smaug quite soon after. The attack on Laketown is quite well done, but i noticed the same thing as during the Orc attack in DoS. It's like the town was deserted. There's a strange lack of chowd shots en extra's in these scenes.

After that the film actually follows the book rather closely. The people of Laketown demanding that that Thorin make good on his promise. Tranduil rocking up with a massive army. The greed of Thorin, Bilbo's betrayal. All os this is very well done. Good pace, without feelings too rushed.

Dain arrives, played by Billy Connely....as Billy Connely. Thick Scottisch accent, and irreverent trash talking. Some may hate it, but Dain got some good luaghs from the audience.

And then the battle begins. The Battle Of Five Armies was never described in detail in the book, which gave PJ almost complete creative freedomj to do whatever he wanted.

I have to say, it's damned impressive. Very long, very relentless, with only occasional breathers, but unlike the action scenes in AUJ and DOS which went on too long to the point that my attention wavered, I was engaed the whole time.

Also, this battle really has some beatifully epic shots. Not just of massive CGI armies, of which there were actually less then I figured. The battle scenes here return to that almost poetic/heroic look and feel of the best parts of TTT and ROTK.

Ofcourse much of the action is scarecely believable. Orlando Bloom has not one, but several Leggy moments. But in not of his previous 5 films has the action ever been in any way believable (not even FOTR)

Almost all of the action takes place outside rather then in a dark goblin cave or erebor, and the film looks better for it. It feels far less studio and green screen shot.

I'm actually glad I'm seeing this again tomorrow!

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As I said, the verdict is in. And I don't know how else to describe the film than with the words: it's pretty much what you would expect if you saw the first two films.

I'm gonna say a few words, and know this: there will be SPOILERS!

Even if this film did nothing right, it nailed one thing, and that is the Thorin-Bilbo-Thranduil-Bard-Arkenstone angle. Richard Armitage does a magnificent job, and so does Martin Freeman. I feel, though as if the dragon sickness was a little too heavy-handed. Like Thorin repeating Smaug's word verbatim, and Bilbo remembering Smaug's words, even with a flashback, that is just the typical PJ "hammer it home or else nobody will get it" approach. The often mentioned "drown in gold" scene with Thorin is really absurd to me. Just like the beginning of the dragon sickness is too abrupt. Thorin getting sick, and getting well again, feels like "I'm sick now ... ok, I'm fine now".

Another thing they ruined is the surprise in Thranduil's tent, that Bilbo has the Arkenstone. It is revealed he has it literally within the first 15-20 minutes.

And even though I was very sceptical of the whole Tauriel/Kili business, their story is really the most satisfying angle of this film, after Bilbo's and Thorin's. Lily is really fantastic in this film. Legolas is actually playing a nice role, but his antics ... I mean, really, nothing can prepare you for this, not even reading about it.

The bat-flying, the arrow-shooting, the troll-steering, all of that could possibly just amuse you. But the way he uses the crumbling stones in the fallen-over tower to jump to safety is so utterly silly that it defies words. And the crowning cherry: every other director would show that at high speed, so that the CGI isn't so fucking obvious, but PJ actually gives us this spectacle in slow motion! Were Legolas' clothes just a tad greener ... you know, Zelda and shit.

All three movies were shown in HFR 3D, so it's probably not fair to judge the CGI on this basis, but I can say that the CGI at least doesn't look worse than in the previous two. It actually looks very good - if you forget for a moment that CGI in HFR always looks worse than in standard definition. But, you know, what really looked bad in my opinion, and I do mean bad, was the CGI in Dol Guldur. The transparent wraiths do look cool - until they start to fight. The fight-effects are just horrible, and cut in a way that nobody knows what's going on. The last appearance of Sauron is really oddly visualised, it looks almost like a 3D anime. And when nuclear Galadriel (which is creepy as hell) expels him, the way Sauron flies into the horizon as a red glow, it almost feels like an episode of the X-Files.


How much does Radagast appear?

Your thoughts on the Dol Guldur subplot?

Radagast appears thrice,

once before Dol Guldur, when he and Gandalf have a strange telepthic conversation in Elvish, then shortly in Dol Guldur to bunny-sled Gandalf out of harm's way, with a very quick scene at Rhosgobel where he gives Gandalf a horse, and finally, the rides in on an eagle, together with Beorn, which is, as other pointed out, 15 seconds max.

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I feel, though as if the dragon sickness was a little too heavy-handed. Like Thorin repeating Smaug's word verbatim, and Bilbo remembering Smaug's words, even with a flashback, that is just the typical PJ "hammer it home or else nobody will get it" approach. The often mentioned "drown in gold" scene with Thorin is really absurd to me. Just like the beginning of the dragon sickness is too abrupt. Thorin getting sick, and getting well again, feels like "I'm sick now ... ok, I'm fine now".

Damn, I thought this would be one of the best parts of the film, but this sounds awful. Just like a lot of the other things you pointed out...

PJ truly has become the master of unsubtlety!

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Wow, those Radagast scenes seem silly. I have to imagine he'll be in the EE a lot more

I don't think it's silly really, it's just the absurd design of Radagast that makes it silly. The first scene, the telepthy thing, is literally the same close-up shot from AUJ, when he has Sebastian in his arm, muttering spells.

And the inclusion of Radagast and Beorn on the eagles is indeed so pointless that they could have removed it easily without anyone noticing. And I'm serious about that. Digitally remove the two for the theatrical cut, and put them back in for the EE, nobody will even care.

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I feel, though as if the dragon sickness was a little too heavy-handed. Like Thorin repeating Smaug's word verbatim, and Bilbo remembering Smaug's words, even with a flashback, that is just the typical PJ "hammer it home or else nobody will get it" approach. The often mentioned "drown in gold" scene with Thorin is really absurd to me. Just like the beginning of the dragon sickness is too abrupt. Thorin getting sick, and getting well again, feels like "I'm sick now ... ok, I'm fine now".

Damn, I thought this would be one of the best parts of the film, but this sounds awful. Just like a lot of the other things you pointed out...

PJ truly has become the master of unsubtlety!

Don't get me wrong: the dragon sickness is pulled off very well! It's just that it begins and ends without apparent reason. Smaug attacks Lake-Town, there is some Tauriel/Kili/Legolas/Bard stuff at the lake, then the four other dwarves arrive at Erebor, and literally in the first scene Thorin has, he behaves like an obsessive psychopath.

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I think the EE will fill a couple of spots. Like with DoS, I think it would have been a better idea to have the longer versions released initially. The difference between DoS TE and DoS EE is a prime example for the fact that movie length and engaging storytelling have nothing to do with each other.

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I agree. I was surprised by how much the DOS EE improved the film. And it doesn't even feel longer. Actually, the long parts still feel just as long (Smaug vs Dwarves), everything else seemed better.

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I honestly think these films are being cut based on studio pressure, just because they want to avoid the length complaints that AUJ and ROTK got.

But that's exactly what caused the superfractured feel of DoS. That plus PJ has lost grip on proper pacing.

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Maybe an EE scene will fill in the gap.

BTW, is this where the title is shown in the TC?

hobbit1.png

No, it's not. The title card appears over a shot of Erebor. Pretty much the same "shot" that is on the regular OST of DoS, just with snow.

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I honestly think these films are being cut based on studio pressure, just because they want to avoid the length complaints that AUJ and ROTK got.

But that's exactly what caused the superfractured feel of DoS. That plus PJ has lost grip on proper pacing.

BOTFA doesn't feel fractured, and it's pacing is very good.

But it does feel like things were cut. Like Dain's raven. He just appears, flies away, and reappears again, without any explanation. In fact, Thorin is pretty much saying he expects a dwarf army to arrive early on, but it's never explained why, and if or what the raven has anything to do with it.

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I honestly think these films are being cut based on studio pressure, just because they want to avoid the length complaints that AUJ and ROTK got.

But that's exactly what caused the superfractured feel of DoS. That plus PJ has lost grip on proper pacing.

BOTFA doesn't feel fractured, and it's pacing is very good.

But it does feel like things were cut. Like Dain's raven. He just appears, flies away, and reappears again, without any explanation. In fact, Thorin is pretty much saying he expects a dwarf army to arrive early on, but it's never explained why, and if or what the raven has anything to do with it.

Looks like they could have used some time to establish things and just not have fight after fight after fight as many reviews say.

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I honestly think these films are being cut based on studio pressure, just because they want to avoid the length complaints that AUJ and ROTK got.

But that's exactly what caused the superfractured feel of DoS. That plus PJ has lost grip on proper pacing.

BOTFA doesn't feel fractured, and it's pacing is very good.

But it does feel like things were cut. Like Dain's raven. He just appears, flies away, and reappears again, without any explanation. In fact, Thorin is pretty much saying he expects a dwarf army to arrive early on, but it's never explained why, and if or what the raven has anything to do with it.

Looks like they could have used some time to establish things and just not have fight after fight after fight as many reviews say.

If I hadn't read the book, I wouldn't know what the hell that raven means, and how Thorin knows of a Gnoma Ex Machina 30 minutes before it arrives.

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I honestly think these films are being cut based on studio pressure, just because they want to avoid the length complaints that AUJ and ROTK got.

But that's exactly what caused the superfractured feel of DoS. That plus PJ has lost grip on proper pacing.

BOTFA doesn't feel fractured, and it's pacing is very good.

But it does feel like things were cut. Like Dain's raven. He just appears, flies away, and reappears again, without any explanation. In fact, Thorin is pretty much saying he expects a dwarf army to arrive early on, but it's never explained why, and if or what the raven has anything to do with it.

Looks like they could have used some time to establish things and just not have fight after fight after fight as many reviews say.

If I hadn't read the book, I wouldn't know what the hell that raven means, and how Thorin knows of a Gnoma Ex Machina 30 minutes before it arrives.

He can smell the dwarves of course. All the marching works up quite a perspiration and nothing smells like a sweaty dwarf!

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That, plus I'm sure with PJ's magical geography skills, Dain was taking a piss just 5 minutes away from Erebor when the raven came in.

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I honestly think these films are being cut based on studio pressure, just because they want to avoid the length complaints that AUJ and ROTK got.

But that's exactly what caused the superfractured feel of DoS. That plus PJ has lost grip on proper pacing.

BOTFA doesn't feel fractured, and it's pacing is very good.

But it does feel like things were cut. Like Dain's raven. He just appears, flies away, and reappears again, without any explanation. In fact, Thorin is pretty much saying he expects a dwarf army to arrive early on, but it's never explained why, and if or what the raven has anything to do with it.

Looks like they could have used some time to establish things and just not have fight after fight after fight as many reviews say.

If I hadn't read the book, I wouldn't know what the hell that raven means, and how Thorin knows of a Gnoma Ex Machina 30 minutes before it arrives.

He can smell the dwarves of course. All the marching works up quite a perspiration and nothing smells like a sweaty dwarf!

On a pig no less.

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PJ have a really nasty habit of folding Middle Earth in on itself to make the geography work for the films. Gundabad is not exactly in the neighbourhood either.

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That, plus I'm sure with PJ's magical geography skills, Dain was taking a piss just 5 minutes away from Erebor when the raven came in.

By PJ's magical geography skills, Legolas and Tauriel are able to depart from the Long-Lake in the morning, and arrive at Gundabad before 4 o'clock tea, and have to "wait for nightfall". Which gives him time to bore Tauriel with his mommy stories of course.

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Ah yes, and we can't forget, PJ also has the power to bend space and time. Doesn't the whole battle basically happen in a day or something?

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Nobody is interested in how long it took! Just let us show you a heck of a lot of fighting!

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Actually, seeing Bilbo travel home through Middle-Earth with Gandalf was very nice and emotional. No pit stops though, and upon arriving in the Shire, Bilbo just magically carries his box of gold with him suddenly.

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Don't spoil anymore about the epilogue/ending bit! Those scenes sound like the only good salvageable bits from this film, so I won't to go into those blank :)

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Actually, seeing Bilbo travel home through Middle-Earth with Gandalf was very nice and emotional. No pit stops though, and upon arriving in the Shire, Bilbo just magically carries his box of gold with him suddenly.

EE will be indispensable for this film!

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Yes!
They can easily add 20-25 minutes
Now is it me or is the film the victory the one that feels least affected by the decision to turn two films into three?

Seeing all 3 really drove this home. AUJ was far too slow and long for the material it had to cover. DOS was an improvement but the entire battle of Erebor and Laketown just went on and on.

TBOFA seemed so much tighter. Plot wise there wasn't a lot more to cover so its much more a battle film then a journey. Yet it doesn't drag as much.

The dragon sickness is a bit over the top, much like Sarumans spell of Theoden was. But it works well dramatically. Freeman and Armitage are excellent.

This film gives up on trying to give all the dwarrow a personality. It picks the few it needs for the battle and ignores the others.

Some beautiful shots during the fight between Azog and Thorin on the ice lake. This film has more one on one dueling then any of the previous 5, which mostly consisted of our heroes hacking their was through endless Yrch!

Most obvious LOTR reference is when Legolas is advised to find the Dunedain. And join with a young Ranger.



Loved the last shot of Freeman giving into the temptation to look at his magic ring which then segues to Holm.

They erased the "You havent aged a day!" line when Gandalf arrives I think. For obvious reasons. Though continuity whores will hate this.



End credits play over a collection of drawings like ROTK

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I just saw it and liked it surprisingly quite a lot. The obvious cons have already been dealt in this thread so above those I did not have much to complain about. I enjoyed most of it but it felt it could have used some padding for the in-between the fight scenes.

Dragon-sickness was really heavy handedly dealt with but Armitage did a great job with Thorin so it was not too bad. Martin Freeman is simply brilliant in this. Bilbo has a lot of emotional scenes.

I still don't like the Tauriel/Kili relationship and it was perhaps the biggest complaint from me. That and Legolas's acrobatics. Still an entertaining movie with a brisk pace.

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I hope the EE will have a scene or more with Dain.

Yeah. And I thought he looked quite like the physical real life Billy Connolly in the close-ups. I would like to see a proper aftermath where they chronicle what happened after the battle and I suspect they will as the cut from the battle to Bilbo leaving felt oddly quick. I really liked the simple little scene with awkward Gandalf offering Bilbo some silent support though.

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There's more variety in the battle scenes here then there was in the action scenes in Erebor, or the Goblin cave, or Lake Town. Also here the action takes place in daylight, outside, which helps.

It's undeniably epic action porn, but PJ really does have a knack for this.

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I honestly have to say I did not suffer much battle fatigue while watching. It kept a brisk pace and had variety and the stakes gradually moved from armies to personal stories even in the action.

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That was the main concern I had regarding this film. So I was pleasantly surprised.

I think the EE might also add some more battle scenes. Those worms for instance, straight out of Dune, where did they go?

People hated Alfrid in the first film, but he provided some excellent comic relief here.

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That was the main concern I had regarding this film. So I was pleasantly surprised.

I think the EE might also add some more battle scenes. Those worms for instance, straight out of Dune, where did they go?

People hated Alfrid in the first film, but he provided some excellent comic relief here.

Wereworms were a silly little invention but gave a reason Azog could approach the mountain undetected, especially when they look like sandworms from Dune . Although how he built the signal contraption on the Ravenhill is a stranger puzzle.

The Dale battle felt somewhat shortened as the focus seemed to shift quickly away from it. There must be more after Bard orders the people to seek refuge at the Great Hall.

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Could someone tell me, in spoiler tags, how the final scene plays?

Basically the final scene is Bilbo saying goodbye to the dwarves at the gates of Erebor, a quick travelling montage of Bilbo and Gandalf going through different landscapes (hills and dales familiar from the previous movies) and stopping at the borders of the Shire. Bilbo is now laden with armor, a shield, gear and a small treasure chest (we don't see him picking it up from the troll-hoard in the theatrical cut). Gandalf says his farewells and somehow the magic ring comes up and Bilbo reveals quite quickly that he had a magic ring but that he lost it in the battle of the five armies. Gandalf looks sceptical. And there is some nice dialogue taken straight from the end of the book here and Gandalf then takes his leave. We transition to Hobbiton where Bilbo arrives in the middle of the auction with people carrying his belongings away and Lobelia is stealing some silver spoons, that Bilbo takes back from her. He then has to prove his identity to the auctioneer and hands over his dwarf contract and goes home, tidies up the near empty Bag End a bit, picking the picture of his mother from the floor, and then slowly picks up the Ring from his pocket. As he opens his hand we transition to the old Bilbo and he hears a knock on the door to which he shouts his lines from FotR "No, thank you. We don't want any more visitors, well-wishers, or distant relations." and Gandalf's voice is heard saying the line "And what about very old friends? and he hurries to the door. The camera slowly pans to the map of Erebor on the table and as PJs name appears on the screen the end credits start to roll.

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