Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I'm not really a fan of the Tintin themes. Even The Unicorn Theme sounds sort of generic (As someone else on the forum pointed out) but they are so well integrated all throughout the score that it's hard not to appreciate them. War Horse, on the other hand has fantastic themes that are presented in more straightforward and satisfying ways. Tintin is probably the superior score on a technical level but I still prefer War Horse because it's more emotionally satisfying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 No no no, I thought you were thinking on some technical musical thingie when you said they were mediocre, that's why I asked in the first place. Nevermind.But John Williams is technically brillant. Just not as inspired as he used to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 No no no, I thought you were thinking on some technical musical thingie when you said they were mediocre, that's why I asked in the first place. Nevermind.But John Williams is technically brillant. Just not as inspired as he used to be.Tintin I might give you a wee bit of leeway. But he certainly made an exception for War Horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Most people think there's a difference between what's good and what they like. To me there's no difference.I've had this debate with Ricard before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Stuff like this reminds me of The Collected Works of Shakespeare vs. A Phone Book debates.Yeah, both are a chore to sit through.As for TINTIN vs. WAR HORSE deathmatch: Williams has written much better scores in TINTIN's genre, while WAR HORSE can certainly compete with FAR AND AWAY/THE RIVER/THE PATRIOT. Only if you avoid the comparison TINTIN can come out on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I disagree with Ricard that Tintin's Heroic theme is mediocre. It's great but underdeveloped. It's also a typical JW theme, not many other composes can do betterIt's a bit like Mutt's Heroic theme in KotCS (the one that appears at the end of Jungle Chase and End Credits, not Adventures of Mutt) . Very cool and very underused in the score Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 WAR HORSE can certainly compete with FAR AND AWAY/THE RIVER/THE PATRIOT.Yeah, but kind of the way the L.A. Clippers can "compete" with the rest of the NBA....oh wait, there is no NBA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I love Tintin's heroic theme, but there isn't enough of it. The Unicorn theme sounds pretty generic to me actuallyBut they're both very similar. I'd even dare to say that they are both pretty mediocre. Yes, that's what I think.Initially I felt somewhat felt the same, but after seeing the film I changed my mind. The experience had a VERY positive effect on my score listening pleasure in general, the Tintin motif (because that's all it is) began to click. The 'marriage' of imagery and music is very strong, the score shuttles the visual narrative along at a breakneck pace, it all feels like a score which has been tightly sewn into the scenes it's written for - it never once feels like an edited in hack job.Now pretty much every bit of the score is wedged in my head.The mark of a great JW score, I'd argue.Then again, I know there's many here who couldn't give a shit about incidental bollocks like the successful pairing of imagery and music. For them it's all about the notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Yeah, but kind of the way the L.A. Clippers can "compete" with the rest of the NBA....oh wait, there is no NBA.To quote INHERIT THE WIND, 'with that kind of attitude, who will come to your funeral?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,478 Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 I actually think Tintin's main theme is BRILLIANT. Its heroic but also positive and not dark, there's this faint touch of adventure and even the touch of Europe in the second 6 note phrase. I do actually bemoan the fact that there is not a concert arrangement. But the theme is very short, even its longest statement in Falcon is just 20 seconds long. It does not even have a secondary phrase I think. A concert arrangement might be very difficult. I think Haddock's theme can get a concert arrangement.War Horse's themes can be easily arranged in concert arrangement and are fuller and more "sweeping". But purely comparing the scores on a technical level, Tintin is a marvel. The sheer dexterity of the music, or the fleet-fingeredness, the articulation (some call it mickey mousing), the speed, the dazzling orchestration renders it a much superior achievement.Again complexity does not automatically mean superiority but take a track like Falcon, it is just so accomplished musically! A piece like that would be deathly challenging for a live orchestra to play at one of Williams' concerts. But the sweeping War Horse themes, the violinists will soar into them easily.Tintin is written with very great skill. Not many composers can write such advanced music today I think. War Horse is very good but I'd say its the more crowd pleasing score and Tintin is slightly more esoteric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I agree with ds.EDIT: I agree with TheUlyssesian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightscape94 965 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Most people think there's a difference between what's good and what they like. To me there's no difference.I've had this debate with Ricard before. I actually think this type of debate is fun. Human beings, to a point at least, can determine what is objectively good or bad artistically. Like running things through a funnel. We would get to a point where the artistic factors are harder to argue and debate, and that's when it gets fun.. Your personal taste is great for your own enjoyment, but it's important for a society to improve its art, and to that end I believe it's important to recognize bad art in order to progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I actually think Tintin's main theme is BRILLIANT. Its heroic but also positive and not dark, there's this faint touch of adventure and even the touch of Europe in the second 6 note phrase.OK, you're gonna have to develop that statement. What is European about those 6 notes?He means russian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 So what you're saying is that your tastes align with objective quality? Interesting.There's no such thing as objective quality in music.So people claiming film music is going steadily downhill are completely insane?Because, you know, if there is no objective quality, there is also no measuring stick for something going downhill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinspace 8 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I actually think Tintin's main theme is BRILLIANT. Its heroic but also positive and not dark, there's this faint touch of adventure and even the touch of Europe in the second 6 note phrase. I do actually bemoan the fact that there is not a concert arrangement. But the theme is very short, even its longest statement in Falcon is just 20 seconds long. It does not even have a secondary phrase I think. A concert arrangement might be very difficult. I think Haddock's theme can get a concert arrangement.War Horse's themes can be easily arranged in concert arrangement and are fuller and more "sweeping". But purely comparing the scores on a technical level, Tintin is a marvel. The sheer dexterity of the music, or the fleet-fingeredness, the articulation (some call it mickey mousing), the speed, the dazzling orchestration renders it a much superior achievement.Again complexity does not automatically mean superiority but take a track like Falcon, it is just so accomplished musically! A piece like that would be deathly challenging for a live orchestra to play at one of Williams' concerts. But the sweeping War Horse themes, the violinists will soar into them easily.Tintin is written with very great skill. Not many composers can write such advanced music today I think. War Horse is very good but I'd say its the more crowd pleasing score and Tintin is slightly more esoteric.Tintin is more functional than anything and I'm sure it works well with the picture. The problem I'm finding while I listen to Tintin is it is great technically but very unoriginal (apart from track 1 it is an uninspired effort) it's as if JW takes snippets from home alone, harry potter, indiana jones, (everybody runs from minority report) etc etc and added to them making them very technically brilliant but uninspired ie ( flute runs are from Harry potter and prisoner and Hook). That is to say that even the general public would say "It sounds similar to somthing I've heard in the past". It was mentioned above about the secret scroll theme sounding uninspired and I agree. If I'm honest I believe Williams could have done a lot beter "creatively"; maybe he felt a bit bored with this film. He has taken the predictable route and though the Pursuit of the Falcon and jazzy track 1 are great. I wouldn't score the other tracks that highly on listening experience. The general public don't care for too much complexity anyway.''I think there will be a chance War Horse will be nominated but probably won't win. IMHO Tintin though a technical masterpiece is too derivative.It is sad to say it but I feel the last great movies JW scored were Munich and HPPOA. They feel like either Williams Struggled or he was asked to be more "creative" artistically. They are perhaps better scores than either War Horse or Tintin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Well, familiarity doesn't necessarily breeds contempt. See relative original scores like ROSEWOOD pop up on many WORST-OF lists whereas very familiar scoring concepts like TINTIN or POTTER I inevitably are hoisted upon BEST-OF and Oscar lists.It's just the way it is. And Williams is over 80 by now, so i cut him every slack for being not hungry for adventure anymore, it's a wonder a man of his age can produce scores as well-composed and technically impeccable. It's after all a very taxing job. As for award wins, neither is the most likely candidate. Both scores are very familiar Hollywood fare without any solo instrument highlighted or an european air of loftiness about them. I don't think TINTIN will win over US box office and with Scorsese's HUGO ranking high on critics lists, i don't think it has a chance. WAR HORSE could become a sentimental favourite, though. People like horses... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 So people claiming film music is going steadily downhill are completely insane?No. I'm one of them. But that's just an opinion, not a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 So people claiming film music is going steadily downhill are completely insane?No. I'm one of them. But that's just an opinion, not a fact.Yeah, but in the end, it all boilds down to sophism and word-mongering. Their are of course sets of standards established in musical academia for the rating of music in the 21st century. Those are mainly there to establish a repertoire value - the 10,000st retro song recalling THE CLASH just cannot have the same significance because it's just pastiche, not the original. Ergo, it can be a solid song with inspirational traits, but cannot climb high on the 'repertoire' scale.Nobody's saying you should frame those standards on your wall, but they are not going away only because some individuals don't like them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I agree. And they are necessary. But as you said, they're just... "standards". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF1_freeze 131 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I actually think Tintin's main theme is BRILLIANT. Its heroic but also positive and not dark, there's this faint touch of adventure and even the touch of Europe in the second 6 note phrase. I do actually bemoan the fact that there is not a concert arrangement. But the theme is very short, even its longest statement in Falcon is just 20 seconds long. It does not even have a secondary phrase I think. A concert arrangement might be very difficult. I think Haddock's theme can get a concert arrangement.War Horse's themes can be easily arranged in concert arrangement and are fuller and more "sweeping". But purely comparing the scores on a technical level, Tintin is a marvel. The sheer dexterity of the music, or the fleet-fingeredness, the articulation (some call it mickey mousing), the speed, the dazzling orchestration renders it a much superior achievement.Again complexity does not automatically mean superiority but take a track like Falcon, it is just so accomplished musically! A piece like that would be deathly challenging for a live orchestra to play at one of Williams' concerts. But the sweeping War Horse themes, the violinists will soar into them easily.Tintin is written with very great skill. Not many composers can write such advanced music today I think. War Horse is very good but I'd say its the more crowd pleasing score and Tintin is slightly more esoteric.Tintin is more functional than anything and I'm sure it works well with the picture. The problem I'm finding while I listen to Tintin is it is great technically but very unoriginal (apart from track 1 it is an uninspired effort) it's as if JW takes snippets from home alone, harry potter, indiana jones, (everybody runs from minority report) etc etc and added to them making them very technically brilliant but uninspired ie ( flute runs are from Harry potter and prisoner and Hook). That is to say that even the general public would say "It sounds similar to somthing I've heard in the past". It was mentioned above about the secret scroll theme sounding uninspired and I agree. If I'm honest I believe Williams could have done a lot beter "creatively"; maybe he felt a bit bored with this film. He has taken the predictable route and though the Pursuit of the Falcon and jazzy track 1 are great. I wouldn't score the other tracks that highly on listening experience. The general public don't care for too much complexity anyway.''I think there will be a chance War Horse will be nominated but probably won't win. IMHO Tintin though a technical masterpiece is too derivative.It is sad to say it but I feel the last great movies JW scored were Munich and HPPOA. They feel like either Williams Struggled or he was asked to be more "creative" artistically. They are perhaps better scores than either War Horse or Tintin.The problem is: We are at a point where JW has done pretty much every genre there is. So there will be always a in some respects similar score. But to say it is creatively uninspired to use a fast flute solo line "again" or to have a heroic theme for the title character "again" is completely unfair...Or do you also think JW was creatively uninspired in Superman cause the heroic energy and orchestration of the main theme resembles the heroic Star Wars Main Theme / Luke's Theme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Or do you also think JW was creatively uninspired in Superman cause the heroic energy and orchestration of the main theme resembles the heroic Star Wars Main Theme / Luke's Theme?You answered your own question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF1_freeze 131 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Or do you also think JW was creatively uninspired in Superman cause the heroic energy and orchestration of the main theme resembles the heroic Star Wars Main Theme / Luke's Theme?You answered your own question.How can i answer a question i didn't ask myself? My opinion, i don't think he was uninspired at all..The "also" was not used as a phrase for "me and you all". The meaning was more or less if he, considering the recent problems he had with JW, in addition believes that Superman's main theme was uninspired... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinspace 8 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Or do you also think JW was creatively uninspired in Superman cause the heroic energy and orchestration of the main theme resembles the heroic Star Wars Main Theme / Luke's Theme?You answered your own question.How can i answer a question i didn't ask myself? My opinion, i don't think he was uninspired at all..The "also" was not used as a phrase for "me and you all". The meaning was more or less if he, considering the recent problems he had with JW, in addition believes that Superman's main theme was uninspired...Of their era of 1970's Superman is a memorable masterpiece as is Star Wars. I know people confuse Superman and Star Wars themes but they were composed in the same year. I would cut Williams some slack. Neither is uninspired to me, although the instrumentation is the same the feel of Superman is different to star wars, perhaps not as memorable as the dozens of themes for Star Wars. They are both legendary themes that will live on!For the most part I agree with you. JW has had an epic career if ever there was one. I am being picky but there are times where I know he must have been uninspired - like with the secret scroll theme, it is almost lifted out of harry potter star wars attack of clones ( see track one at 1:48) and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN8v-jPf2qQNow, I can't say that about much of the rest of the score - there are not many direct lifts from previous scores; they are like extensions to previous cues he has written. So when you get a track like Secret Scrolls it works but (to a jw fan) I'm sure JW is capable of better than just "what works". He never reused stuff to that extent in 2002 with star wars harry potter minority report and catch me if you can, which all sound fresh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 That clip from AotC is almost completely different than "SEcret of the Scrolls." The only similarity is the last two notes. The rest of the notes, the rhythm, the instrumentation, the tempo, the mood, the usage (I mean, the AotC clip isn't even a motif if I recall correctly) is completely different. If I looked hard enough I bet I could find that sort of similarity between a minor melody and any of JW's iconic themes.If anything, "Secret of hte Scrolls" is similar to the theme from The Fury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I'm starting to like Tintin more than War Horse. It's much more thematically dense than War Horse and therefore has more to discover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I'm starting to like Tintin more than War Horse. It's much more thematically dense than War Horse and therefore has more to discover. Yes it is. War Horse is more easy in the beginning but Tintin's complex action cues will tickle you longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 War Horse is a much better score in my opinion. TinTin screams Chamber of Secrets, but that's ok too. Maybe I'll like it more when and if I see the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 You obviously have to see the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 War Horse is the best score of the year, but "The Adventures of Tintin" is the best cue of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 War Horse is a much better score in my opinion. TinTin screams Chamber of Secrets, but that's ok too. Maybe I'll like it more when and if I see the film.Come on Tintin is a much better work than COS.It may not be groundbreaking, but its not a derivative rehased material with a pair of new themes...And please watch the film, i think that by the least you will find it entertaining, i hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Come on Tintin is a much better work than COS.No it's not.It may not be groundbreaking, but its not a derivative rehased material with a pair of new themes...COS is much more than that. Too bad you don't seem to appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Wow, someone else who enjoys the Chamber of Secrets?I'll take 'em both! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,359 Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 COS is an amazing score! I enjoy the CD more than HPSS's OST CD I think. Of course when you add in the other half of SS's score that didn't make the CD, it's a different story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF1_freeze 131 Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I still consider War Horse a masterpiece while Tintin remains one class below. It's a very good score but it lacks highlights and the thematic material is not as good as WH. Chamber of Secrets is overshadowed by the great SS and the even better PoA which (with TPM) still remain JW best scores since 1993. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Holy fuck. COS is one of my holy grails... That description i wrote is what most people say...But if one takes into consideration originality-freshness, Tintin wins.Ricard, really i cant picture how much (and why) you dislike this score. And i never had seen you praise COS...PD: I hate that when COS was released, everyone sounded like it was crap, and peope who defended it were mad. And now this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I'm just thankful to have both of these scores. For me currently, they're my most-played. They function pretty well together. War Horse is really soulful and heartfelt. Tintin is Williams' adventurous spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Ricard, really i cant picture how much (and why) you dislike this score.I don't "dislike" it, I just don't think it's as good as everyone says.And i never had seen you praise COS...I wasn't very active on the board around that time. And I quit posting regularly a few weeks after its release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Even still, Ricard, surely it pleases you that a great degree of positivity surrounds the Tintin score; instead of the decidedly mixed/disappointed reaction we got to the last great Williams fan hope (Indy IV)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinspace 8 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Will Tintin turn out to be a better score than War Horse?That depends more on how successful/good the film is. As of now it looks like they are fairly similarly matched in terms of box-office success. Time will tell though.It is impossible to compare Tintin with War Horse as they are at different ends of the film making spectrum. War Horse is a heart score while Tintin is a head (more intellectual) score. Neither are masterpieces BUT they are both better than most of the film scores out today. To me I would score Tintin 8/10 and War Horse 8.5/10 based on how well they fit the film. I just listened to some of the new Sherlock music from Zimmer and yes, he does give JW a run for his money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Even still, Ricard, surely it pleases you that a great degree of positivity surrounds the Tintin score; instead of the decidedly mixed/disappointed reaction we got to the last great Williams fan hope (Indy IV)?It neither pleases me nor displeases me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I just listened to some of the new Sherlock music from Zimmer and yes, he does give JW a run for his money!You're joking right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinspace 8 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I just listened to some of the new Sherlock music from Zimmer and yes, he does give JW a run for his money!You're joking right?No - Zimmer does capture the essence of the film just as well as JW. It is also "cooler". But the thing that I Iike most about Zimmers work (particularly in Inception & Sherlock) is he seems to write the music in 3D using all sorts of weird instruments -even creaking doors etc. You soon realize why Hans is lightyears ahead of his students (Jablonsky & co) in terms of sound and recording innovation. Lets just hope he keeps the standard high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I wasn't aware that Williams had scored a Sherlock Holmes movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 War Horse is a much better score in my opinion. TinTin screams Chamber of Secrets, but that's ok too. Maybe I'll like it more when and if I see the film.Joey's come back, and he's dead on with every post so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 COS is an amazing score! I enjoy the CD more than HPSS's OST CD I think. Of course when you add in the other half of SS's score that didn't make the CD, it's a different storyCOS is a travesty of a score. Lazy, clumsy and obvious. It's always like a parody of the first score.I honestly don't think JW was very involved in it. And if he was he was just being a whore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I view CoS as a compilation album that premieres a few new works. It's not original, but it was never intended to be. Not because Williams was lazy, but because he wasn't physically able to write that much original music in one year. I appreciate the new stuff and the new recordings of old stuff, but I would never try to compare it with, say, any of Williams' other scores of the year or the HP series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,359 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 People understimate the re-treaded score vs new score percentages of that OST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 People understimate the re-treaded score vs new score percentages of that OST.I agree. For me it has always worked as a wonderful album where the new thematic material has been a refreshing addition to the first scores themes and music. The performance by LSO is terrific and robust. Of course as a complete film score it does not hold a candle to the HPPS but as a concept album it is a very entertaining one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I'm sorry. The old material feels awkward and disjointed. The new themes are overwrought, grasping for our attention so much that I feel the need to recoil from them. Most of the underscore appears to have been written during lunch break. And re-using No Ticket is just lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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