Jay 37,323 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Placeholder thread to discuss the CD once its out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,323 Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 My promotional copy arrived from Sony today. Well technically it's not a promotional copy - It's a copy of the final shrinkwrapped OST, with the UPC punched out. REMEMBER: TRACK TITLES CONTAIN SPOILERS!!! http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1456/img1100le.jpg http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/7813/img1099aq.jpg http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/2452/img1102xu.jpg http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/2337/img1103x.jpg http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/3214/img1104u.jpg So the album credits are: Music Composed and Conducted by John Williams Album Produced by John Williams Music Editor: Ramiro Belgardt Music Recorded and Mixed by Shawn Murphy Music Contractors: Sandy De Crescent and Peter Rotter Flute SOlos by Louise Di Tullio Trumpet Solos by Tim Morrison Music Preparation: Jo Ann Kane Music Service Music Recorded and Mixed at Sony Pictures Studios, Culver City, CA Album Mastered by Patricia Sullivan Fourstar at Bernie Grundman Mastering, Hollywood, CA Publisher: DW II Distribution MusicB, LLC Booklet editing: WLP Ltd Design: Shaun Mills for WLP Ltd And the opening spread lists all the performers. I noticed two "Williams" under "Percussion": Donald and Jerry. And they BOTH related to the maestro? There's also a Ralph Williams under Clarinets Piano lists Gloria Cheng and Randy Kerber Also anyone using EAC - or any ripper that accesses FreeDB - can thank me for inputting the track titles - and doing it correctly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 So everyone called Williams is related AND employed by JW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I noticed two "Williams" under "Percussion": Donald and Jerry. And they BOTH related to the maestro?Yes, they're both John's brothers.There's also a Ralph Williams under ClarinetsThis one is not related to JW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I still think it's odd that Williams's orchestrators get no mention whatsoever in the album notes, not even a "special thanks to." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpigeon 3 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Having seen the film and listened to the score over the past couple of days, the War Horse soundtrack is easily one of the best presentations of Williams's music in some time. It leaves out nothing major from the film and it is presented in almost full chronological order. From what I can tell, only one track is spliced together from multiple separate cues ("No Man's Land"). The rest of the album's tracks represent full cues, so do not worry about the excessive comma usage in the track titles. And there is only one place where the album does not sync with the film and it's relatively minor: Track 6 should be swapped with Track 5. Then if you move the dissonant first half of "No Man's Land" to before "Pulling the Canon," the soundtrack would be fully chronological. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I still think it's odd that Williams's orchestrators get no mention whatsoever in the album notes, not even a "special thanks to."I wondered about that too. JW's albums never list the orchestrators. I think that's because, many ignorant listeners will think, when they read, for example "Orchestrated by Conrad Pope", etc. that JW wrote only the melodies while CP did the rest...But it could also be that JW's orchestrators do so little (just transcribing what JW already wrote, really) that they deserve no mention. No offense to CP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 If Horner doesn't credit Mahler, Copland, Prokoviev, Shostakovich et al, Williams may be allowed to let a few Popes and Neufelds slip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 If Horner doesn't credit Mahler, Copland, Prokoviev, Shostakovich et al, Williams may be allowed to let a few Popes and Neufelds slip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 796 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I still think it's odd that Williams's orchestrators get no mention whatsoever in the album notes, not even a "special thanks to."I wondered about that too. JW's albums never list the orchestrators.Well, the odd exception is the Nixon soundtrack. Anyone know why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,323 Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 Do OSTs from other composers list the orchestrators? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 7,990 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Most of them do.Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightscape94 965 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I think that's because, many ignorant listeners will think, when they read, for example "Orchestrated by Conrad Pope", etc. that JW wrote only the melodies while CP did the rest... That's funny. I remember when I bought the Schindler's List soundtrack back in the day, my sister saw it and read the "Violin solos by Itzhak Perlman", and seriously thought that he wrote the solos.Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 I still think it's odd that Williams's orchestrators get no mention whatsoever in the album notes, not even a "special thanks to."I know your brilliant sarcasm and sense of humor but seriously have you ever posted somethingpositive about John Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 7,990 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Well, he said that Williams didn't exactly screw up his latest two works.Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,676 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Something I've wondered for a while now - all of Williams' latest scores (well, KotCS and these two) have not only been recorded in L.A. but also received full length CD releases.Do they just pay up the AFM fees, knowing the album will sell a zillion copies? Obviously the lack of a choir makes it easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Something I've wondered for a while now - all of Williams' latest scores (well, KotCS and these two) have not only been recorded in L.A. but also received full length CD releases.How is that unusual? A lot of Williams score run 60 to 70 minutes, regardless of where they were recorded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 How is that unusual? A lot of Williams score run 60 to 70 minutes, regardless of where they were recorded.HOOK and FAR AND AWAY started this trend (both L. A. recordings). I always asked myself how James Horner was able to get long albums for ROCKETEER, CASPER, THE MISSING etc. Most of them can't have sold more than 10,000 copies (and that's generous). Even a sucker like DEEP IMPACT, a forgettable score if there ever was one, had 78 minutes on it, while Goldsmith got 35 on AIR FORCE ONE, a movie which not only was more successful but also with a much more 'visible' score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Deep Impact was done shortly after Titanic, which sold 25 million CDs. Thats why... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Deep Impact was done shortly after Titanic, which sold 25 million CDs. Thats why...Still doesn't explain 70-minute CASPER with full orchestra and choir. That must have cost a fortune. And LEGEND OF ZORRO (2005, long after TITANIC faded) is 75-minutes, too. I wonder if they accept the losses in vain hope for another 25 million...digital downloads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Maybe because Horner tends to release his scores on bigger labels. Sony Classical or Decca can more easily afford 70+ minutes then Varese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,676 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 So it's just Varese and other soundtrack labels that find reuse fees a problem?Avatar was another one. Huge orchestra, huge choir, full CD - the fees on that must have been astronomical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 He's just a golden boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Well Sony and Decca are big labels, Varese isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Yeah but big labels never did this for composers like Silvestri, Goldenthal, Goldsmith (First Knight, The Shadow), either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Maybe Horner has a better agent. Goldsmith often resisted doing long albums, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 The same as Williams, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,323 Posted November 19, 2011 Author Share Posted November 19, 2011 The soundtrack that comes out around the time of the film is paid for by the overall marketing budget of the film. It's when a small label wants to expand a score or release one that never had an OST that the fees become prohibitive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Why should a studio play the production costs for a label which picked up the rights on the score? This only works if the music division of the producing studio is behind the release, which isn't the case 70% of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 The soundtrack that comes out around the time of the film is paid for by the overall marketing budget of the film. It's when a small label wants to expand a score or release one that never had an OST that the fees become prohibitiveNo. Air Force One famously had a 30 minute release because of the re-use fees. Same with a lot of other 30 minute releases from the 80's and 90 that Varese did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,676 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 And if I look at a recent score release from my shelf, Sony Classical released JNH's Water for Elephants, and it's 50 mins. Major label and no choir, yet not a maxed-out CD.There's just something about Horner and Williams that makes any label immediately give a full CD, regardless of where it was recorded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,626 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 I'm still not happy with the running time of War Horse and Tintin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Give it a rest, already. Both scores got more than enough released and could be cut by 10 minutes without losing too much. At least if you don't consider soundrack albums just as archival souvenirs from their respective movies.I remember the old EMPIRE album with its meager 40-minute cut which was a disgrace, as was TOD, but still, spreading it over 130 minutes makes not for a great musical representation for either (even ESB feels padded at that excessive length). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brónach 1,301 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 1) Yes it does, specially for War Horse as it's less exhausting than Tintin. 2) That length is not excesive for ESB, it's perfectly fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickTintin 0 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 I find it hard to agree with that until I see the films themselves. With just the scores, I think they are perfect. By the way, does anyone else get a "Its Working!" vibe in relation to War Horse? I of course refer to the bit of music from said dialogue in The Phantom Menace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brónach 1,301 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Well I'd have to see War Horse too, but I'm going to guess it's fine in complete form a usual, specially given the choice in styles for the music isn't very tiring.A complete Tintin wouldn't be long, other than being two scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Brigden 7 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Give it a rest, already. Both scores got more than enough released and could be cut by 10 minutes without losing too much. At least if you don't consider soundrack albums just as archival souvenirs from their respective movies.I remember the old EMPIRE album with its meager 40-minute cut which was a disgrace, as was TOD, but still, spreading it over 130 minutes makes not for a great musical representation for either (even ESB feels padded at that excessive length).That was annoying, that the EU ESB was truncated (and had terrible track order) and then finding out years later US and Japan got a 2-LP set with almost double the music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Do OSTs from other composers list the orchestrators?As Karol pointed out, they frequently, if not most of the time, do. And the most salient example in my mind is Goldsmith, who, as far as I've heard, leaned as lightly on his orchestrators as Williams does.I'm not questioning Williams's right to decide that his orchestrators, from an album perspective, have contributed nothing of significance to the music -- as the common explanation goes -- but I am genuinely curious about the line of reasoning he uses in choosing to omit their names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,323 Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 Having seen the film and listened to the score over the past couple of days, the War Horse soundtrack is easily one of the best presentations of Williams's music in some time. It leaves out nothing major from the film and it is presented in almost full chronological order. From what I can tell, only one track is spliced together from multiple separate cues ("No Man's Land"). The rest of the album's tracks represent full cues, so do not worry about the excessive comma usage in the track titles. And there is only one place where the album does not sync with the film and it's relatively minor: Track 6 should be swapped with Track 5. Then if you move the dissonant first half of "No Man's Land" to before "Pulling the Canon," the soundtrack would be fully chronological.If that is true than I think the maestro definitely made good decisions when sequencing the OST. "Plowing" ends up being the climax of the first "act" of the album (tracks 1-6) so i am glad it was swapped with track 5 to be the end of the act. It bridges better to the second "act" (tracks 7-13) than "Seeding, and Horse Vs Car" would have. Likewise the two halves of No Man's Land combine together perfectly. When that dissonant first half of it appears we are ready for that feeling of isolation, and it leads great into the action second half, which wouldn't sound as good if it just started out of nowhere after track 12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,626 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Well, as I predicted months ago it's Tintin that has the worst OST presentation of the 2i don't care whatsoever about combined cues out of sequence and not in chronological order. It's unreleased OBVIOUS highlights (Portuguese Plane) that piss me off. It always boggles my mind Williams that leaves some of the more exciting cues off the OSTI'm not questioning Williams's right to decide that his orchestrators, from an album perspective, have contributed nothing of significance to the music -- as the common explanation goes -- but I am genuinely curious about the line of reasoning he uses in choosing to omit their names.Because they don't really orchestrate anything . I thought that was cleared up by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,676 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I don't remember if you've seen the film, KM, but if Picking Pockets had been included, I'm sure you'd be screaming murder that it was in place of a real score cue.But yes, I would love the plane sequence to have been included.I'm very happy with the OST presentation for War Horse - it flows very well. I'm unlikely to see the film any time soon, so I won't know what I'm missing, which is utter bliss in JW World. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Do OSTs from other composers list the orchestrators?As Karol pointed out, they frequently, if not most of the time, do. And the most salient example in my mind is Goldsmith, who, as far as I've heard, leaned as lightly on his orchestrators as Williams does.I'm not questioning Williams's right to decide that his orchestrators, from an album perspective, have contributed nothing of significance to the music -- as the common explanation goes -- but I am genuinely curious about the line of reasoning he uses in choosing to omit their names.Williams usually acknowledges the orchestrators in the film credits. I think it is Williams' way of saying that he is the sole author and creator of his music which is reinforced by not having the names of the orchestrators appear in the CD release credits.Having seen the film and listened to the score over the past couple of days, the War Horse soundtrack is easily one of the best presentations of Williams's music in some time. It leaves out nothing major from the film and it is presented in almost full chronological order. From what I can tell, only one track is spliced together from multiple separate cues ("No Man's Land"). The rest of the album's tracks represent full cues, so do not worry about the excessive comma usage in the track titles. And there is only one place where the album does not sync with the film and it's relatively minor: Track 6 should be swapped with Track 5. Then if you move the dissonant first half of "No Man's Land" to before "Pulling the Canon," the soundtrack would be fully chronological.That sounds like excellent news, since it means very little missing music. The War Horse album really flows well as it is though but it is nice to know that with little effort you can rearrange everything in chronological order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I think that's because, many ignorant listeners will think, when they read, for example "Orchestrated by Conrad Pope", etc. that JW wrote only the melodies while CP did the rest... That's funny. I remember when I bought the Schindler's List soundtrack back in the day, my sister saw it and read the "Violin solos by Itzhak Perlman", and seriously thought that he wrote the solos.TimWell, in a way, that's quite understandable to think so... I mean if you didn't know anything about John Williams, Itzhak Perlam, or just film music in general...But I hope you enlightened her! Well, as I predicted months ago it's Tintin that has the worst OST presentation of the 2i don't care whatsoever about combined cues out of sequence and not in chronological order. It's unreleased OBVIOUS highlights (Portuguese Plane) that piss me off. It always boggles my mind Williams that leaves some of the more exciting cues off the OSTI'm not questioning Williams's right to decide that his orchestrators, from an album perspective, have contributed nothing of significance to the music -- as the common explanation goes -- but I am genuinely curious about the line of reasoning he uses in choosing to omit their names.Because they don't really orchestrate anything . I thought that was cleared up by now.Exactly! Or like I said:I wondered about that too. JW's albums never list the orchestrators. I think that's because, many ignorant listeners will think, when they read, for example "Orchestrated by Conrad Pope", etc. that JW wrote only the melodies while CP did the rest... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Do OSTs from other composers list the orchestrators?As Karol pointed out, they frequently, if not most of the time, do. And the most salient example in my mind is Goldsmith, who, as far as I've heard, leaned as lightly on his orchestrators as Williams does.I'm not questioning Williams's right to decide that his orchestrators, from an album perspective, have contributed nothing of significance to the music -- as the common explanation goes -- but I am genuinely curious about the line of reasoning he uses in choosing to omit their names.Williams usually acknowledges the orchestrators in the film credits. I think it is Williams' way of saying that he is the sole author and creator of his music which is reinforced by not having the names of the orchestrators appear in the CD release credits.As I note above, I acknowledge the way in which Williams goes about choosing to attribute his orchestrators. I'm not Williams, and I'm hardly in a position to judge him, but ultimately my point is that if I had to err in one direction or the other, I would rather err on the side of giving my collaborators too much credit than too little -- a path Goldsmith seems to have chosen.As I indicated earlier, it seems to me that a good compromise would be to credit them under a "thanks" or "special thanks" header. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Well, they do appear on the End Credits of the movie, don't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,323 Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 Sometimes but not always, and even then its some but not all of them. For example, a member posted that the end credits of "Tintin" does have an Orchestrators section but doesn't list Conrad Pope in it, even though we know for a fact he worked on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Time to start the black book of ghost orchestrators. And i know who will be featured heavily in it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,801 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Here's the anwser...CC: I just had a quick look at the notes for the original Sony Classical release for Episode 1, but didn’t find your name there, unfortunately. Conrad Pope: John’s point is that, he is the author of that music – fully and completely. When you take one of his albums, he is saying, “Look I am the architect of all the colors and you (the orchestrator) have just executed them.” And this makes perfect sense. I’m the same way. CC: But you are credited in many of the film credits. CP: Yes. You see, in the picture business the orchestration credit is a specific facet of the “picture” business NOT the “music” business. So John makes sure, once you have achieved a certain status with him, that you’ll get that credit in the picture, but not on the album.http://www.tracksoun...interviewcp.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,323 Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,626 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Hmm, makes Williams seem less like the humble guy he is publicly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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