Howard Shore's The Battle of the Five Armies (Hobbit Part 3)

[Jay 37,346]

I would have liked it if Fire and Water was the last time we hear Bard's DOS theme, and its just his Hero theme and Family theme from that after that point forward. It was so odd that his DOS theme returned during that ogre scene. Bah!

[crocodile 8,000]

It's one of my favourites.

I would have liked it if Fire and Water was the last time we hear Bard's DOS theme, and its just his Hero theme and Family theme from that after that point forward. It was so odd that his DOS theme returned during that ogre scene. Bah!

True but I liked that Shore gave it more purpose in this film. In DOS it was more of a wandering uncertain theme. Here it gets to be heroic.

Karol

[Incanus 5,714]

Bard The Dragonslayer (I prefer that name for the theme ) is barely featured because most of the scenes with Bard during the battle have to do with his family (thus Shore uses the Family theme instead). It is weird that he used his DOS theme instead of his new one for when he kills the ogre, though.

Bard the Hero is the more sombre theme for Bard's leadership of the people of Lake-Town? Or the more heroic version of the Lake-Town theme? Just making sure I am on the same page of what your are talking about.

It's the theme that first shows up in Shores Of The Long Lake (after the Kili/Tauriel material), then in Dragon Sickness (after the Thorin theme statement) and finally in Ironfoot (after the big choral material).

OK then I am on the right page. It is the Bard the Leader/Dragon Slayer. It really shows up in the scenes where Bard is assuming the leadership of the people and as such doesn't have many chances to rise to heroic heights. I feel it is more a theme for the responsible and noble leader than purely heroic or action oriented theme. I actually love how Shore takes Bard's original theme and Girion theme and makes them soar. Bard's own theme has few of the best heroic statements in the whole score.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

I feel it is more a theme for the responsible and noble leader than purely heroic or action oriented theme.

Maybe you're right, but then it raises the question: was it really necessary to create a theme just for that, if it was to only use it twice? I mean, don't get me wrong, I like the theme, but then the problem when you create many themes for just one character is that some of them end up being underused. Maybe it would have been more fitting to create a more developed version of Bard's main theme instead?

A good point. Although in a way it is the same nucleus of Bard's music idea, just treated differently. I am hoping the EE will offer more moments with this particular theme. Hopefully the extended epilogue has more about the Dale and Bardings so Shore could use the theme in an extended way in the film.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,346]

Remember it could be in the music for the funeral scene (though it might be dialed out ).

(This post was written before BB's post was... posted.)

No, it's just because Dain is barely featured in the film.

That reminds me, it's kinda funny, that all Dain's dialogue in the TE is invented, and the one bit of Dain's "dialogue" from the book was (presumably) cut and left for the EE.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Faleel 5,346]

It's not really new knowledge that Shore scores almost every second of these films.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Faleel 5,346]

Here you can here him say (in the english at the start) that they recorded the percussion separately to the orchestra. This wasn't done in AUJ was it?

I think was, the percussion from Warg-Scouts is presented clean in the EE documentaries sometimes.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Bard The Dragonslayer (I prefer that name for the theme ) is barely featured because most of the scenes with Bard during the battle have to do with his family (thus Shore uses the Family theme instead). It is weird that he used his DOS theme instead of his new one for when he kills the ogre, though.

It's not wierd if you consider that some moments might have been rescored by Pope on the spot at PJ's request. That statement in particular sounds very "plain" to me.

[Incanus 5,714]

Bard The Dragonslayer (I prefer that name for the theme ) is barely featured because most of the scenes with Bard during the battle have to do with his family (thus Shore uses the Family theme instead). It is weird that he used his DOS theme instead of his new one for when he kills the ogre, though.

It's not wierd if you consider that some moments might have been rescored by Pope on the spot at PJ's request. That statement in particular sounds very "plain" to me.

And when it turns out it was done by Shore it becomes "anti-pedestrian" again.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ofcourse!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I know I do!

[gkgyver 1,645]

Bard The Dragonslayer (I prefer that name for the theme ) is barely featured because most of the scenes with Bard during the battle have to do with his family (thus Shore uses the Family theme instead). It is weird that he used his DOS theme instead of his new one for when he kills the ogre, though.

It's not wierd if you consider that some moments might have been rescored by Pope on the spot at PJ's request. That statement in particular sounds very "plain" to me.

And when it turns out it was done by Shore it becomes "anti-pedestrian" again.

Actually, no. There are more moments in BOTFA than DOS where I feel, this doesn't sound like something Shore would orchestrate.

[Incanus 5,714]

Bard The Dragonslayer (I prefer that name for the theme ) is barely featured because most of the scenes with Bard during the battle have to do with his family (thus Shore uses the Family theme instead). It is weird that he used his DOS theme instead of his new one for when he kills the ogre, though.

It's not wierd if you consider that some moments might have been rescored by Pope on the spot at PJ's request. That statement in particular sounds very "plain" to me.

And when it turns out it was done by Shore it becomes "anti-pedestrian" again.

Actually, no. There are more moments in BOTFA than DOS where I feel, this doesn't sound like something Shore would orchestrate.

I have to say there are moments like that here and there but then again I was not able to hear the difference in the final version (which Pope orchestrated on the podium) of the orc attack on Bard's family in DoS. But it was to be expected when the MO of the recording was what it was. Even though Pope is a master orchestrator he can't possibly divine what approach Shore would have taken to solve some musical challenge put to him by PJ when on the podium. He did his best to interpret and I don't think he served the music badly.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No it didnt!

[crocodile 8,000]

It sounds more ornamented in places. But I buy it because it's a slightly younger Middle-earth.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What?

[crocodile 8,000]

The story takes place earlier in time?

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Not a lot earlier. Middle-earth is ancient

[crocodile 8,000]

So is Earth. And 60 years makes a lot of difference.

Karol

[gkgyver 1,645]

There are more moments in BOTFA than DOS where I feel, this doesn't sound like something Shore would orchestrate.

I can agree with that. Especially with DOS, where I immediatly felt it sounded quite different from all 4 previous scores when I listened to it for the first time.

Not really. DoS sounds fine. And has a vastly different sound mix than BOTFA. BOTFA has close mic strings, odd sounding brass in places, and extremely dry percussion.

I feel that Pope captured the essence of Shore's orchestrational habits extremely well in DoS. In BOTFA, it seemed like Pope didn't really get the way Shore orchestrates those big battle scenes. In a way, the orchestration feels a bit too elaborate in comparison to what Shore would do. Battle of Pelennor Fields for example, I don't think Pope would have dared to go with the sublime simplicity that Shore did.

Also, I don't want to feel stupid, but: the booklet for BOTFA says Dain's theme had male chorus, but I don't hear it. Is it that low in the mix, or just taken out from the OST late in the game? Or, potentially more intriguing, did Doug see an extended cut of the film that had a scene with Dain's theme plus chorus, which was cut from the TE, but Doug mentioned it because he didn't know it was cut?

Well, I ordered the piano book, maybe the lyrics are in there.

[Faleel 5,346]

Perhaps that was referring to the Choir that appears in Ironfoot, after Dain's theme?

[gkgyver 1,645]

I read it again, it could refer to Thorin's theme too. It's a bit confusing because he writes about Dain's theme shortly before, and the page has the sketch for Dain on it.

[KK 3,307]

There are more moments in BOTFA than DOS where I feel, this doesn't sound like something Shore would orchestrate.

I can agree with that. Especially with DOS, where I immediatly felt it sounded quite different from all 4 previous scores when I listened to it for the first time.

I agree with GK. DoS sounds fine and very much like classic Shore, aside from the signs of his own maturation as a composer. The differences in sound lie more in the way the score was recorded rather than the way it was orchestrated.

BotFA on the other hand, has moments that might make you scratch you heard for a bit.

[Incanus 5,714]

There are more moments in BOTFA than DOS where I feel, this doesn't sound like something Shore would orchestrate.

I can agree with that. Especially with DOS, where I immediatly felt it sounded quite different from all 4 previous scores when I listened to it for the first time.

I agree with GK. DoS sounds fine and very much like classic Shore, aside from the signs of his own maturation as a composer. The differences in sound lie more in the way the score was recorded rather than the way it was orchestrated.

BotFA on the other hand, has moments that might make you scratch you heard for a bit.

And that damn mix! Way too much in the vein of most EPIC wall of sound scores of today that does not do any favours to Shore's combination of orchestra and chorus or separation of certain elements.

[KK 3,307]

BotFA has one of the worst recording mixes in recent memory. Urgh. Just plain awful.

A real shame when compared to the delicious gold standard of the OT.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

At first I really hoped it was just the MP3's i had. That someone had put them though whatever filter Brian Tyler uses on his releases.

This type of mix can work with a certain type of score (like The Expendables, which is nothing but BANG! POW! WALLOP! action.)

But it really doesn't fit with a Middle-earth score, even more that is mostly action.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Will there even be CR's?

Why? A lot less music is missing and these scores aren't as popular

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Why?

Do we really need every single note of these scores? I mean they are good. But even the OST's drag a bit in places.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No they didn't.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I had forgotten about those.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[KK 3,307]

Interesting arrangement. It takes Shore's material but extrapolates it with the stylings of another composer/arranger. The guy knew the score well, I'll say that, but could have picked better selections to include in there.

Still neat that it was done though. I wonder where it was done.

[Incanus 5,714]

Interesting arrangement. It takes Shore's material but extrapolates it with the stylings of another composer/arranger. The guy knew the score well, I'll say that, but could have picked better selections to include in there.

Still neat that it was done though. I wonder where it was done.

By the decription of the video on Youtube the performance took place in Spain at Cines Kinépolis on the 16th of December in 2014 by the Film Symphony Orchestra.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[gkgyver 1,645]

I would tell you, but the files aren't playable on my mobile.

[Faleel 5,346]

Well, I ordered the piano book, maybe the lyrics are in there.

I got mine yesterday, There are a ton of lyrics in it.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Anyone able to understand the German?:

Here are the remaining parts of the interview with Conrad Pope. Again any translations/summaries are much appreciated!

Part 2:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=59C7A77C94C40696!109&authkey=!AJcVaa_RDtjxtYk&ithint=file%2caifc

Interesting that he mentions John Williams and Star Wars here, I wonder whether he's relating it to the middle earth music somehow.

Part 3:

http://1drv.ms/1DkfN14

Here you can here him say (in the english at the start) that they recorded the percussion separately to the orchestra. This wasn't done in AUJ was it? I know the gamelan was recorded separately in DOS, but not everything? Perhaps it explains some of the issues with the percussion in the mix.

Part 4:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=59C7A77C94C40696!108&authkey=!AJUwznweETy5t34&ithint=file%2caifc

It's not really new knowledge that Shore scores almost every second of these films.

It is somewhat to me. I presumed PJ knew which sections wouldn't need scoring and they'd discuss this when spotting.

All those files aren't playable on my computer. Not with WMP, not with VLC.