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A.I. Artificial Intelligence (2001) - 2015 3CD set from La-La Land Records


Jay

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10 minutes ago, Jay said:

Definitely analog

 

EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean

 

I think Star Wars, CE3K, Superman, and maybe one other were the scores Tomlinson cut the performance edits directly into the 1st gen tape masters

 

Ok. But what exactly did you mean when you said that HP2, HP3, and WOTW were performance edited?

 

Edit: Ah, you're probably referring to a 2nd gen or lower master.

 

4 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

noticable level of hiss

 

But it's less than on the OST, right?

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On 1/4/2021 at 1:52 PM, Jurassic Shark said:

Ok. But what exactly did you mean when you said that HP2, HP3, and WOTW were performance edited?

 

They record each cue a bunch of times, then edit together the best portions of each take for the final performance-edited master

 

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Edit: Ah, you're probably referring to a 2nd gen or lower master.

 

I dunno what this is referring to specifically, but back in the analog era, the performance edits would be a later generation tape, yea, except those few scores Tomlinson cut the first gen tape as well.

 

In the digital era, the performance edited masters are digital files.

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12 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

1) Is The Reunion alternate just an edited-down version of the original recording?

Nope, it's different. Compare The Reunion 5:01 with the matching section, Alternate 4:30, for example.

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15 minutes ago, Jay said:

They record each cue a bunch of time, then edit together the best portions of each take for the final performance edited master

 

Of course. Now it makes sense.

 

15 minutes ago, Jay said:

I dunno what this is referring to specifically, but back in the analog era, the performance edits would be a later generation tape, yea, except those few scores Tomlinson cut the first gen tape as well.

 

Yeah, I was trying to compare this to the editing of the first gen CE3K master.

 

15 minutes ago, Jay said:

In the digital era, the performance edited masters are digital files.

 

No need to throw around insults!

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51 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

I've just two questions left:

1) Is The Reunion alternate just an edited-down version of the original recording?

 

No, the different parts are unique recordings, not edits.  I guess Spielberg re-edited the scene and new music had to be recorded

 

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2) Is the Abandoned in the Woods alternate really the first version that got recorded? I'm asking because it sounds exactly like the version in the main program, just with a different intro and insert being clumsily edited into it. That is the track that really made me wonder what the sources of this release were.

 

The OST track called "Abandoned in the Woods" (now disc 3 track 13 of the LLL set) is

  • Opening End Credits

The OST track called "Rouge City" is

  • 0:00-2:00 = [3M7] Abandoned in the Woods (edited)
  • 2:00-end = [5M5] The Journey To Rouge City (edited)

The main program track "Abandoned in the Woods (Extended Version)" is 

  • 0:00-2:50 [3M7] Abandoned In The Woods
  • 2:50-3:24 [3M7 New] Abandoned In The Woods
  • 3:24-end [3M7] Abandoned In The Woods

The bonus program track "Abandoned in the Woods (Alternate)" is

  • 0:00-2:50 [3M7 New] Abandoned In The Woods
  • 2:50-3:20 [3M7] Abandoned In The Woods
  • 3:20-end [3M7 New] Abandoned In The Woods

 

Basically, the main program version is all the correct takes as used in the film, plus the unused long ending from the original 3M7, while the Alternate is anything that was recorded that was different from what was in the main program

 

Essentially 0:00-0:30 and 2:50-end are completely different between the two tracks, and 0:30-2:50 are basically the same

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1 hour ago, Jay said:

I believe MM had transfers from analog tape for every take of every cue and rebuilt everything from scratch.

I thought he used a digital source for the A.I. set.

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The booklet only mentions "The original scoring session masters" in the tech talk section.

 

JWFan MM text interview:

Quote

The two versions of the song “For Always” came from the album master and everything else came from the unmastered final digital mixes done in 2001. So the mixes are the same but all the performance edits were re-created and the mastering is newly done.

 

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Cool so it was digital files made in 2001, but every take of every cue, unlike Hp2 and HP3, where the only digital files they sent were a collection of cues already performance edited, and we had to hunt down other sources for alternates and such

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41 minutes ago, Jay said:

unlike Hp2 and HP3, where the only digital files they sent were a collection of cues already performance edited, and we had to hunt down other sources for alternates and such

For HP3, we are kinda lucky that all the important things that were missing on those high resolution masters were already covered on the OST. I still can't understand how cues like Double Trouble or Reviewing the Recent Past could not be found on those masters!

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Isn't it nuts how major productions can lose or poorly archive historic film music?

 

We still don't know if the ROTJ album session day masters will ever turn up, and then there's stuff like the Jaws and ET album masters burning up in a fire...

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6 hours ago, Jay said:

We still don't know if the ROTJ album session day masters will ever turn up, and then there's stuff like the Jaws and ET album masters burning up in a fire...

 

Even more horrifyingly, that someone was flogging the final film takes from the first generation Star Wars multitracks (auctioned off from John Neal's estate) at some movie convention over a decade ago. Literally the tape that Eric Tomlinson physically cut out of the first-gen element, like with Superman.

 

And we only found out because Lukas Kendall happened to be attending that convention with Matthew Wood. We still have no idea if Lucasfilm or anyone bothered to follow that up!

 

It's mindboggling how stuff like that can get misplaced. 

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At least we know whatever source for ROTJ was found for the Demasters, it sounds bloody fantastic. I presume it was the first generation multitracks, with a stereo downmix included on two of the tracks. I can't imagine it sounding any better.

 

Sadly we can't tell if the album-session tracks were sourced from the same second-gen OST master Sony used in 2015. I was really hoping the spectograms might answer that one.

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17 hours ago, Jay said:

Cool so it was digital files made in 2001, but every take of every cue, unlike Hp2 and HP3, where the only digital files they sent were a collection of cues already performance edited, and we had to hunt down other sources for alternates and such

Wait a minute, were HP2 and HP3 taken from that pre-edited source, because the original reels couldn't be located? I thought it was, because people thought that this source was sufficient for this release...

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11 hours ago, crumbs said:

Even more horrifyingly, that someone was flogging the final film takes from the first generation Star Wars multitracks (auctioned off from John Neal's estate) at some movie convention over a decade ago. Literally the tape that Eric Tomlinson physically cut out of the first-gen element, like with Superman.

 

And we only found out because Lukas Kendall happened to be attending that convention with Matthew Wood. We still have no idea if Lucasfilm or anyone bothered to follow that up!

 

It's mindboggling how stuff like that can get misplaced. 

 

We do know Lucasfilm got involved -they digitized everything

 

Source 1: https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=65118&forumID=1&archive=0

 

Quote

On top of that there are still elements problems with the original Trilogy due to the stuff having not been well archived at the time...there was a guy at the Star Wars Convention at the L.A. Convention Center a few years ago who was ransoming off original tape reels he had dug up from (LP remix engineer) John Neal's estate, including the original 2" 16-track of side four of the Star Wars LP! (Who knows where sides 1 through 3 went...the way this guy explained it, he got side 4 out of some garage...he did loan it to Lucasfilm at least to make a digital copy.)

 

 

Source 2: https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=101432&forumID=1&archive=0

 

Quote

I was at a Star Wars-related convention in L.A. maybe 6-8 years ago where Dan Melson had a booth trying to sell these tapes he got from the John Neal estate—he's been trying to unload them for years. He has every right to own and sell the master tapes, even though he does not own the intellectual property recorded ONTO the tapes. He always asked a fortune and, not surprisingly, people were not interested, seeing as how the tapes are worthless except for the "cool factor." He had a lot of rock stuff too. Of the film music, the tapes are basically dub-downs of little importance except for the Star Wars 2" 16-track masters which contain the edited "selects" Williams and Ken Wannberg chose—I remember when they did the Star Wars Special Edition CDs, they had the 16-track masters, but all of these master takes from the original album had been snipped out! So that's where they went, making those 16-tracks are highly important. Now, the good news: at that Star Wars con was Matthew Wood, a sound editor for Lucasfilm (voice of General Grievous, I think?) and he and I were like, WTF?! I am quite sure he subsequently coordinated to have the 16-tracks digitized at Lucasfilm (in exchange for a tour or something for Melson)...whatever. I think it's all OK, so people should RELAX.
Lukas

 

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25 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

You're misremembered and misreporting the story.  It was just the LP master, and only for side 4

 

https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=65118&forumID=1&archive=0

 

That's definitely not the post I remember reading. Maybe this is a follow-up post which clarified what those materials were.

 

The post I remember had far more detail and mentioned Matthew Wood also being in attendance (and had no confirmation that Lucasfilm ever did anything about it, only that he assumed Matt would follow it up).

 

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7 hours ago, Amer said:

Guys dont worry about JEDI. Better quality tapes were found and are in safe hands. Thats All I have to say.

 

I hope they include the sail barge source music

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Okay, so this is the Lukas Kendall FSM post I'm remembering, from 2014 instead of 2010:

 

Quote

I was at a Star Wars-related convention in L.A. maybe 6-8 years ago where Dan Melson had a booth trying to sell these tapes he got from the John Neal estate—he's been trying to unload them for years. He has every right to own and sell the master tapes, even though he does not own the intellectual property recorded ONTO the tapes. He always asked a fortune and, not surprisingly, people were not interested, seeing as how the tapes are worthless except for the "cool factor." He had a lot of rock stuff too. Of the film music, the tapes are basically dub-downs of little importance except for the Star Wars 2" 16-track masters which contain the edited "selects" Williams and Ken Wannberg chose—I remember when they did the Star Wars Special Edition CDs, they had the 16-track masters, but all of these master takes from the original album had been snipped out! So that's where they went, making those 16-tracks are highly important. Now, the good news: at that Star Wars con was Matthew Wood, a sound editor for Lucasfilm (voice of General Grievous, I think?) and he and I were like, WTF?! I am quite sure he subsequently coordinated to have the 16-tracks digitized at Lucasfilm (in exchange for a tour or something for Melson)...whatever. I think it's all OK, so people should RELAX.

 

This description of the elements reads a bit differently to the comment he made in 2010. It had no reference to them being mere album masters. Wouldn't those be stereo dub-downs of the multitracks? Why would album masters be on 16-tracks and 2" tape?

 

This sounds more like the offcuts of the first-gen multitracks (the takes Williams wanted to use for the OST), and I vaguely recall an interview with Mike where he said all the film takes were missing from that source when the SE was assembled (but they did have all the non-film stuff, like the alternate Binary Sunset, because it wasn't used for the album or film).

 

EDIT: Dammit Jay, you edited your post! :P Well, at least I wasn't misremembering. He just made two different comments.

 

At the risk of further derailing the A.I. thread (maybe this sub-convo could be moved to one of the SW threads?), I wonder if these elements (which someone was selling on eBay 6 years ago) are related?

 

ESB.JPG

 

SW1.JPG

SW2.JPG

 

8 hours ago, Amer said:

Guys dont worry about JEDI. Better quality tapes were found and are in safe hands. Thats All I have to say.

 

The SQ on the ROTJ Demaster is stunning, so if the whole score sounds that good we're in for a treat.

 

When you say more tapes were found though, are you merely referring to better sounding elements of the film score? Or are you referring to the lost album session tapes (and Max Rebo)?

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On 1/5/2021 at 1:39 AM, Amer said:

Guys dont worry about JEDI. Better quality tapes were found and are in safe hands. Thats All I have to say.

 

The better sounding ROTJ you're talking about still takes all the cues recorded on that final album session day directly off the album master.  The actual original elements from that session day have still yet to turn up anywhere as far as we know.

 

 

On 1/5/2021 at 8:25 AM, Brundlefly said:

Wait a minute, were HP2 and HP3 taken from that pre-edited source, because the original reels couldn't be located? I thought it was, because people thought that this source was sufficient for this release...

 

The proper 1st gen multitrack analog tape for HP1 and HP2 are perfectly vaulted in the WB salt mines (in Kansas, I think?).  I think Mike talked about this on a podcast somewhere, but they really let the tape run during these sessions and captured tons of banter between every take.

 

I couldn't tell you what happened to the analog tape for HP3.  I have no idea.

 

For HP1, the digital performance edits they made in 2001 were something like 24bit/44.1khz I think; Mike wanted to create a better master and asked LLL to fund a transfer of every take of every cue from the original analog tape, which they luckily agreed to do, so that was transferred fresh for this project at 24/192khz and he rebuilt every single performance edit from scratch using that.  So now the proper performance edit of every cue is available to WB in 24/192 instead of 24/44.1 thanks to Mike.  Mike's new edits from this transfer is the only source of the entire HP1 portion of the box set (Except obviously the longer ending version of HWW on disc 3, which comes from the HPCOS album master)

 

For HP2, the digital performance edits they made in 2002 were high res 5.1 and the primary source of the new album, but I helped track down which cues from the original recording sessions would have differences worth including in the bonus track section, and we pulled the full-length version of the Christmas cue that's in the main program from there too, because the digital archive only had the theatrical edit.

 

For HP3, the digital performance edits they made in 2004 were high res 5.1 and the primary source of the new album, and there was a second digital source used for a few different things too, along with the original 2004 album master for anything on that that wasn't in those 2 sources.  The original master tapes containing every take of every cue were not located in time for the deadline of the set, but I couldn't tell you if they've been found since then or not (or even anyone is even looking for them or not)

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Iam talking about the actual score tracks and not the album master. Definitely better quality tapes than those used for RCA Sony editions were found and a certain restoration engineer did confirm to me years ago. Now, if the actual first generation ptistine tapes are still not found then that's a different story. 

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I know you are and I know exactly what you are talking about and everything I said about it is still true and correct.


Score cues were recorded on that final album session day, not just concert arrangements.

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Getting back to A. I. Can anyone confirm which cue on CD 1 features instrument Cor Anglais. I cant find if this was mentioned in the cd booklet or was it mentioned in the podcast interview with Matessino. 

 

 

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Looks like there's some in Henry Is Selected

 

image.png

 

and David's Arrival

 

image.png

 

And "Of Course I'm Not Sure"

 

image.png

 

And Wearing Perfume

 

image.png

 

And The Operating Scene

 

image.png

 

And The Scissor Scene

 

image.png

 

Wow, it's even in The Biker Hounds

 

image.png

 

And To Manhattan

 

image.png

 

 

It's also in What Is Your Wish? on disc 2

 

image.png

 

It's also in Opening End Credit (the cue released as Abandoned In The Woods on the OST, and disc 3 on LLL)

 

image.png

 

And Vocal End Credit, the cue released as "Where Dreams Are Born" on the OST and LLL

 

image.png

 

And finally Theme #2 CD Version, the cue released as "A.I. Theme (Instrumental Version)" and "A.I. Theme (Vocal Version)" on the LLL

 

image.png

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4 hours ago, Jay said:

For HP2, the digital performance edits they made in 2002 were high res 5.1 and the primary source of the new album, but I helped track down which cues from the original recording sessions would have differences worth including in the bonus track section, and we pulled the full-length version of the Christmas cue that's in the main program from there too, because the digital archive only had the theatrical edit.

 

For HP3, the digital performance edits they made in 2004 were high res 5.1 and the primary source of the new album, and there was a second digital source used for a few different things too, along with the original 2004 album master for anything on that that wasn't in those 2 sources.  The original master tapes containing every take of every cue were not located in time for the deadline of the set, but I couldn't tell you if they've been found since then or not (or even anyone is even looking for them or not)

So it was an intentional decision for HP2 to use the digital performance edits and it is a fact that everything that was recorded and relevant actually made it onto the set, whereas with HP3 we don't know, whether that is the case, because there were no analog tapes to prove that.:(

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I can't think of anything recorded for HP2 that isn't on the set, with the sole exception of the little patch recording used in the film to connect The Train Station to The Flying Car after some footage was removed

 

For HP3, we still have no idea what was recorded and what wasn't out of the various things we see in the sheet music leak.

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7 minutes ago, Jay said:

For HP3, we still have no idea what was recorded and what wasn't out of the various things we see in the sheet music leak.

So, just as SL and Hook, HP3 can't really be called definitive, as the access to everything in the best possible quality wasn't granted for MM (either because of JW not wanting it or because of sources that couldn't be located).

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It's not just those, there are little odds and ends recorded for Jaws, Jaws 2, Empire of the Sun, and AI that haven't been released yet either.  Could be more too, those just come to mind at the moment

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Did you guys ever notice the interference in The Mecha World (6:55-6:56)? Whatever it is, it is not on the OST!

 

On 1/5/2021 at 8:50 PM, Chewy said:

I would not compare HP3 to Hook honestly :P 

Of course the level of production and care is totally different. But both releases had issues that none of the producers was responsible for that prevented them from getting definitive.

 

On 1/5/2021 at 8:48 PM, Jay said:

It's not just those, there are little odds and ends recorded for Jaws, Jaws 2, Empire of the Sun, and AI that haven't been released yet either.  Could be more too, those just come to mind at the moment

Well, this is odds and ends. The three examples I listed, however, have potentially more than that to justify a reworking of the existing program.

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My issue with A.I. (apart from the interference I just spotted) is the fact that it could sound much better, if it was done just like Minority Report. The digital files from 2001 certainly allow for less sound improvement than the analog tapes.

 

47 minutes ago, Jay said:

Aye, and I'd be on board for new editions of all three!  Bring em on!

Well, luckily you can make LLL hear our voice.;)

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On 1/5/2021 at 8:48 PM, Jay said:

It's not just those, there are little odds and ends recorded for Jaws, Jaws 2, Empire of the Sun, and AI that haven't been released yet either.  Could be more too, those just come to mind at the moment

I know about the odds and ends in Empire and Jaws, but AI? What are you referring to?

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There are 4 pieces of music recorded for the production that are not on the LLL set - though none of them were composed by John Williams

 

There's "Rouge City Jazz" by Joseph Williams, heard in this clip from 2:34-end

 

 

There's "Rouge City Rock" by Joseph Williams, heard in this clip from 1:02-end

 

 

And there's another version of "Rogue City Jazz", with the saxophone lead replaced by electronics, heard in this clip from 0:01-0:42 or so

 

 

 

 

Finally, there's the orchestral backing that appears in this clip from 1:58-end:

 

 

Williams recorded that but didn't compose it, it's an arrangement of the same song coming out of Jude Law's head as a recording; "I only have Eyes For You" by Harry Warren and Al Dubin

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Only_Have_Eyes_for_You

 

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1 minute ago, Jay said:

The orchestral backing that appears in this clip from 1:24-end was recorded by Williams

 

 

He didn't compose it, it's an arrangement of the same song being played in the scene as a recording:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Only_Have_Eyes_for_You

 

 

Did he arrange it?

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So the score itself is basically complete. In this regard, as far as the content goes, this is a definitive set in my opinion (although I wonder if the sound quality could be improved upon, when taken from the analog sources).

 

@Jay Do we know how the tracks on the originally announced OST program should be edited?

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That song is an abomination. Unfortunately, those were the post-Titanic years, in which you had to transform the main theme of your score in a crappy ballad so that the OST can sell a lot of copies (or so the studios thought).

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Yeah, but Titanic really popularized that trend, to the point of almost every major Horner score from that era turning its main theme into a (bad) song. And Williams himself wasn't immune to this.

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5 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Yeah, but Titanic really popularized that trend, to the point of almost every major Horner score from that era turning its main theme into a (bad) song. And Williams himself wasn't immune to this.

 

I like the corny Horner songs...

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Was that song ever intended for the film credits anyway?

 

And shame all that source music couldn't be included but they'd really only be curiosities I'd listen to once. JW didn't compose them, so, no great loss. 

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7 hours ago, crumbs said:

Was that song ever intended for the film credits anyway?

 

I have no idea, but boy am I glad it's not in the film! 

 

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