Incanus 5,713 Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 No idea what you're talking about0:36 of A Liar and A Thief, thats one of Bilbo's themes right?That's the Arkenstone theme.Doesn't the Arkenstone theme also open the track Kingsfoil?I just realized that might the small fragment of a melody on celli in the opening of Wilderland also be a quote of the Arkenstone theme (at 0:16-0:20)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Great work Jason! Can't wait to extensive dive into all of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Mirkwood Theme appears also in The House of Beorn in a truncated (embryonic should I say) form (1:09-1:18). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 186 Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 No idea what you're talking about0:36 of A Liar and A Thief, thats one of Bilbo's themes right?That's the Arkenstone theme.Doesn't the Arkenstone theme also open the track Kingsfoil?I just realized that might the small fragment of a melody on celli in the opening of Wilderland also be a quote of the Arkenstone theme (at 0:16-0:20)?This, and also "The Trollshaws" on AUJ Disc 1, or not? That sounds very close to a variation of the theme in DOS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 No idea what you're talking about0:36 of A Liar and A Thief, thats one of Bilbo's themes right?That's the Arkenstone theme.Doesn't the Arkenstone theme also open the track Kingsfoil? I just realized that might the small fragment of a melody on celli in the opening of Wilderland also be a quote of the Arkenstone theme (at 0:16-0:20)?I think you're right on both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,249 Posted December 7, 2013 Author Share Posted December 7, 2013 Interesting. I wonder what the Arkenstone has to do with things at those points in the movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 One of the characters are probably talking about the Arkenstone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo 3,709 Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 One of the characters are probably talking about the Arkenstone?Yes that would be my guess. I think the Arkestone gets mentioned a lot more in this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,326 Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Anybody notice that the same (or similar) music that plays when Azog is first introduced in "The Defiler" is reprised in "The Nature of Evil"?Or maybe I am just hearing things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Similar, but definitely not the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Well, they both present Azog's theme on low horns with the same background texture (trombones sustaining lowest possible notes with random attacks, lowest detuned timpani, bowed tremolo cellos and basses etc.). Very Goldenthal-esque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Mirkwood Theme appears also in The House of Beorn in a truncated (embryonic should I say) form (1:09-1:18).I mistook the Mirkwood theme for a shortened variation of Smaug's A theme. They do start of rather similarly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,249 Posted December 8, 2013 Author Share Posted December 8, 2013 Yup! When I first heard I was sure it WAS Smaug's Theme... I have not idea why Shire made them so similar (I'm sure some musically educated person will tell us they aren't similar at all...)Now I can tell them apart, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Well, they aren't Or at least, though starting with a half step as well, I hear a distinct difference/noticed it on first listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Good for you!I was wondering why they were having Smaug music in Mirkwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Well, they aren't Or at least, though starting with a half step as well, I hear a distinct difference/noticed it on first listen.Melodically, they're not. But in terms of structure and rhythm, they're both pretty similar. Pity that Shore didn't write a more distinctive motif for the forest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,249 Posted December 8, 2013 Author Share Posted December 8, 2013 What I am bummed about is that we actually spent time in Mirkwood in the first film, and none of the musical material from those scenes in AUJ is reprised in DOS - instead an entirely new theme was written. I don't get it.At least the Woodland Realm Theme stayed the same! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Well, they aren't Or at least, though starting with a half step as well, I hear a distinct difference/noticed it on first listen.Melodically, they're not. But in terms of structure and rhythm, they're both pretty similar. Pity that Shore didn't write a more distinctive motif for the forest.The journey through the "dark" part of the Mirkwood will be quite briskly handled if the reviews are to be believed. The pace will be quicker so I don't think they will linger on the trek for too long. I like the short yet foreboding wisp of a melody Shore created but it could have been a bit stronger I agree.What I am bummed about is that we actually spent time in Mirkwood in the first film, and none of the musical material from those scenes in AUJ is reprised in DOS - instead an entirely new theme was written. I don't get it.At least the Woodland Realm Theme stayed the same!The area where Radagast lives is still alive and freer from the taint than Dol Guldur or the middle parts of the forest so it makes sense to me not to have any similar music for the dark areas and Rhosgobel's surroundings. Radagast's character and thematic material dominate the AUJ scenes anyway and when not there the Necromancer music takes over. The actual Mirkwood part of the forest will be a far creepier place in the film I gather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,249 Posted December 8, 2013 Author Share Posted December 8, 2013 I've always thought the start was similar, because the opening pitches are the same. I thought that was intention though. Personally I think the Mirkwood theme is one of the better new themes, sounds very mysterious and murky to me. Yea, I like the theme a lot too! I guess I wish it had been included in AUJ (like how I wish House of Durin had been in AUJ), more than the other way around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 A lot of the material relating to The Necromancer/Sauron/Azog/Mordor etc are all deliberately very similar to each other, making it hard sometimes to distinguish exactly what theme is being stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 A lot of the material relating to The Necromancer/Sauron/Azog/Mordor etc are all deliberately very similar to each other, making it hard sometimes to distinguish exactly what theme is being stated.Yeah I think this is the intention in part, to imply common source of Evil and we often need the visuals to give us a hint which character a theme is referring to. Azog's material suddenly all but disappears in DoS so it might imply his lessened role.Btw Jason you have marked the Wargs/Warg Riders theme appearing in Flies and Spiders. I think it is not actually that theme despite its similarity to it but relates to the Spiders, being a kind of monster music dun-dun-dun horror exclamation. There is a mention of something to this direction in the liners but perhaps someone with more musical literacy can confirm the Spider music components more clearly. As it stands it all sounds quite Shelob-y, nervous and skittering and violent collection of devises but without a truly distinctive motivic center (to my ears at least). The short angular motif that appears once in AUJ and in DoS as you mention in your list Jason is closest to this kind of clear motivic motto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 I was thinking the same thing.I absolute love The House Of Durin theme. Both Thorin's Theme and Erebor's Theme are fine, but just a little bit too simple. Short themes with the second phrase being a slight variation on the first. It's good to have something a little bit longer lined.Still weird that the Companies Main Theme seems to have been completely omitted. Unless it features in unreleased music. The relative lack of material related to Bilbo or The Shire seems unexpected too, but the same pretty much happened in The Two Towers, when Hobbit/Shire material was played only for scenes of the Hobbits fondly reminiscing home, and even then it lacked the wistful quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,249 Posted December 8, 2013 Author Share Posted December 8, 2013 Well, it sounded like the Warg Scouts rhythm to me... But I agree the wargs probably have nothing to do with that sequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Possibly Shore re-assigned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 I was thinking the same thing.I absolute love The House Of Durin theme. Both Thorin's Theme and Erebor's Theme are fine, but just a little bit too simple. Short themes with the second phrase being a slight variation on the first. It's good to have something a little bit longer lined.Still weird that the Companies Main Theme seems to have been completely omitted. Unless it features in unreleased music. The relative lack of material related to Bilbo or The Shire seems unexpected too, but the same pretty much happened in The Two Towers, when Hobbit/Shire material was played only for scenes of the Hobbits fondly reminiscing home, and even then it lacked the wistful quality.The House of Durin is a direct development of Erebor and Thorin's Themes, which is a great idea as all these are interlinked and it shows the next logical step on the road of their evolution.Well, it sounded like the Warg Scouts rhythm to me... But I agree the wargs probably have nothing to do with that sequence.Possibly Shore re-assigned it.I don't think he reassigned it but the motif used in Flies and Spiders just sounds similar without being the same although they might sound alike to a "layman". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,249 Posted December 8, 2013 Author Share Posted December 8, 2013 Yea, I think your right.... Actually, maybe those bits in Flies and Spiders are actually Descending Thirds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 I doubt there is such a thing as a warg theme. The warg music was a strong version of the Cruelty of the Orcs theme I think, which has a much broader meaning. My guess is the company mistakes Beorn's growling approach with the wargs, which Shore supports with the theme.I'm more intrigued by the Goblintown motif's interlude in Flies and Spiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 I doubt there is such a thing as a warg theme. The warg music was a strong version of the Cruelty of the Orcs theme I think, which has a much broader meaning. My guess is the company mistakes Beorn's growling approach with the wargs, which Shore supports with the theme.I'm more intrigued by the Goblintown motif's interlude in Flies and Spiders.Do you doubt Doug Adams on the existence of the Warg Theme despite it truly being somewhat similarly constructed as the Cruelty of Orcs (nice to see someone else making that connection)? Oh and the small ostinato resembling the Goblin theme sounds also quite a lot like the Drive of the Fellowship (also heard in Shelob's lair if I remember correctly) so it is perhaps a more general action motif common in LotR music. Georg (and anyone else) since you have the SE and liner notes and can read the music could you give us pointers on the Spider material. Is it all that stuff in the middle of the Flies and Spiders track or is there indeed a single repeated motif for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 The House of Durin is a direct development of Erebor and Thorin's Themes .Says who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Well, I haven't scrutinized it yet, only two complete listens, not much time. I have to read the booklet a second time, too.I definitely remember the motif from Radagast The Brown, and I think I picked up that motif the booklet mentions a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 The House of Durin is a direct development of Erebor and Thorin's Themes .Says who?Doug Adams in his liner notes says this pretty clearly. Perhaps "direct development" was somewhat hastily phrased but the House of Durin shares elements with Thorin's Theme and Thorin's theme in turn shares elements with Erebor theme so they are elementally linked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,326 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 I doubt there is such a thing as a warg theme. The warg music was a strong version of the Cruelty of the Orcs theme I think, which has a much broader meaning. My guess is the company mistakes Beorn's growling approach with the wargs, which Shore supports with the theme.I'm more intrigued by the Goblintown motif's interlude in Flies and Spiders.Do you doubt Doug Adams on the existence of the Warg Theme despite it truly being somewhat similarly constructed as the Cruelty of Orcs (nice to see someone else making that connection)? I got it. (I also heard The Way to Mordor though so..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 The House of Durin is a direct development of Erebor and Thorin's Themes .Says who? Doug Adams in his liner notes says this pretty clearly. Perhaps "direct development" was somewhat hastily phrased but the House of Durin shares elements with Thorin's Theme and Thorin's theme in turn shares elements with Erebor theme so they are elementally linked.Any other sources to confirm this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 The House of Durin is a direct development of Erebor and Thorin's Themes .Says who? Doug Adams in his liner notes says this pretty clearly. Perhaps "direct development" was somewhat hastily phrased but the House of Durin shares elements with Thorin's Theme and Thorin's theme in turn shares elements with Erebor theme so they are elementally linked.Any other sources to confirm this?Well there are these fine pair of ears I have on my head and a mind that is a bit obsessive compulsive about themes but after that I got nada. Once and Smeltington 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 I would trust you over Doug "Rohan became a force of nature, thats why Nature's Reclamation is now their theme" Adams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 The House of Durin is a direct development of Erebor and Thorin's Themes .Says who?Doug Adams in his liner notes says this pretty clearly. Perhaps "direct development" was somewhat hastily phrased but the House of Durin shares elements with Thorin's Theme and Thorin's theme in turn shares elements with Erebor theme so they are elementally linked.Any other sources to confirm this?Short of having Shore leave you a note on your mailbox, Doug is the best source you will get. Both Thorin's theme and House of Durin have the same chord progression, so by that alone they are already connected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 I know Doug is the best source, but he's not a source that can speak completely objectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I know Doug is the best source, but he's not a source that can speak completely objectively.He's closest to Shore's creative process, so if anyone can speak objectively about themes and their meaning, it's him.Did it ever occur to you that your disbelief towards the explanation of Nature's Reclamation could lie exclusively in your dislikiing of its use instead of Doug allegedly making excuses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I tend to not wast time secondguessing myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,326 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Plus those are two different situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,326 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 The House of Durin is a "totally new" theme, not a old theme with a new association applied, so I have faith in Adams! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Did someone else notice that from 1:12 onwards in The Nature Of Evil, the low winds and strings outline The Nine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,249 Posted December 9, 2013 Author Share Posted December 9, 2013 Did someone else notice that from 1:12 onwards in The Nature Of Evil, the low winds and strings outline The Nine?I hadn't before, but I hear it now! And what's also interesting is that directly after that, at 1:37, it seems to into a stripped down version of the original Nazgul theme! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Did someone else notice that from 1:12 onwards in The Nature Of Evil, the low winds and strings outline The Nine?By The Nine, do you mean the Ringwraiths theme?Did someone else notice that from 1:12 onwards in The Nature Of Evil, the low winds and strings outline The Nine?I hadn't before, but I hear it now! And what's also interesting is that directly after that, at 1:37, it seems to into a stripped down version of the original Nazgul theme!I disagree. Isn't that just the Footsteps of Doom? The Dm tetrachord/cluster is a device Shore uses a lot for the badguys, not just the Nazgul. In fact that little bit sounds very similar to the statements of the "Footsteps of Doom" motif in FotR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,249 Posted December 9, 2013 Author Share Posted December 9, 2013 Mirkwood Theme appears also in The House of Beorn in a truncated (embryonic should I say) form (1:09-1:18). Thanks, I hear that too - added to the main post (Though I think it plays from 1:03-1:18) Isn't that just the Footsteps of Doom? The Dm tetrachord/cluster is a device Shore uses a lot for the badguys, not just the Nazgul. In fact that little bit sounds very similar to the statements of the "Footsteps of Doom" motif in FotR. I am admittedly a bit unfamiliar with the Footsteps of Doom motif. Where are the best places for me to hear that in FOTR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Did someone else notice that from 1:12 onwards in The Nature Of Evil, the low winds and strings outline The Nine?By The Nine, do you mean the Ringwraiths theme?Did someone else notice that from 1:12 onwards in The Nature Of Evil, the low winds and strings outline The Nine?I hadn't before, but I hear it now! And what's also interesting is that directly after that, at 1:37, it seems to into a stripped down version of the original Nazgul theme!I disagree. Isn't that just the Footsteps of Doom? The Dm tetrachord/cluster is a device Shore uses a lot for the badguys, not just the Nazgul. In fact that little bit sounds very similar to the statements of the "Footsteps of Doom" motif in FotR.There is a new motif called by Shore in the sketch in the liner notes "The Nine". It is the soprano motif from High Fells I assume.Oh and that rhythm in Nature of Evil sounds to me somewhere between the Footsteps of Doom and the rhythm of the Ringwraith Theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,249 Posted December 9, 2013 Author Share Posted December 9, 2013 0:36 of A Liar and A Thief, thats one of Bilbo's themes right?That's the Arkenstone theme.Doesn't the Arkenstone theme also open the track Kingsfoil? I just realized that might the small fragment of a melody on celli in the opening of Wilderland also be a quote of the Arkenstone theme (at 0:16-0:20)?I think you're right on both.Oh I dunno..... I am listening closely to 0:16-0:20 of Wilderland and 0:00-0:06 of Kingsfoil right now and I am not sure that is the Arkenstone theme.... of course if when I see the film on Thursday characters are talking about Arkenstone in both scenes I will eat my words...Btw Jason you have marked the Wargs/Warg Riders theme appearing in Flies and Spiders. I think it is not actually that theme despite its similarity to it but relates to the Spiders, being a kind of monster music dun-dun-dun horror exclamation. There is a mention of something to this direction in the liners but perhaps someone with more musical literacy can confirm the Spider music components more clearly. As it stands it all sounds quite Shelob-y, nervous and skittering and violent collection of devises but without a truly distinctive motivic center (to my ears at least). The short angular motif that appears once in AUJ and in DoS as you mention in your list Jason is closest to this kind of clear motivic motto.Alrighty, so then you musical experts, how should I note in my list the motif that plays at the following timestamps in Flies and Spiders, if it is not the Warg Riders motif?4:21-4:235:18-5:205:23-5:25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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