Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 What is is about these two cues from our beloved Return of the Jedi? They sure sound like Williams, but something is just...off? Through the Flames in particular. What was the rumor that they were ghostwritten by some other guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Nothing off about them at all! They are pure Williams, and fit right in with the rest of ROTJ's score and the trilogy as a whole. Dunno what you're talking about!Love the fanfare that ends them both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 it's only in the original version of the sarlacc cue)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 The fanfare at 1:03 of Through The Flames can also be heard at 4:04 of both versions of The Return of the Jedi, but the Original (Alternate) one is a little different from the Revised (Album) one. I think.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Apparently It's a different fanfare..but I always thought they were the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 They are actually quite different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I love both tracks so much. 100% Williams.on a side note, Return of the jedi (sail barge assault) and The fleet enters hyperspace do indeed share the final fanfare, tough their are not note by note copies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Apparently It's a different fanfare..but I always thought they were the sameWilliam's fanfares all sound pretty much the same. Thats the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Apparently It's a different fanfare..but I always thought they were the sameWilliam's fanfares all sound pretty much the same. Thats the problem So superficial, too. No subtext. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 Through the Flames sounds like it was recorded differently than the rest of the score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Apparently It's a different fanfare..but I always thought they were the sameWilliam's fanfares all sound pretty much the same. Thats the problemSo superficial, too. No subtext.It lacks the Goldsmith-like ability of getting into the mindset of the characters. Gruesome Son of a Bitch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Through the Flames sounds like it was recorded differently than the rest of the score.That's because it was.The cue that accompanied Lando Calrissian’s flight through the inner workings of the Death Star (titled “Superstructure Chase” on the Special Edition CDs) was not recorded at Abbey Road. “We had to go to Olympic for a day and record there,” explained Eric Tomlinson. “And we filled the studio so full – we even had to put the piano on end so that we could get the last cello players in!”Olympic Sound Studios were located at 117 Church Rd in Barnes, London. Studio 1 was 62 feet by 42 feet with a 28 foot ceiling. Equipment at Olympic included a custom made 24 - input wrap - around console together with custom speakers and amplifiers designed by studio manager and chief engineer, Keith Grant. The microphone cabinet was stocked AKG, Neumann, Pearl and Telefunken types. The orchestra in the “Superstructure Chase” sounds reduced in trumpets, horns and woodwinds and several performance errors can be detected that are not readily audible in the film. “I went down to talk to John Williams while he was conducting,” recalled Tomlinson. “And he just leaned over and said ’it’s like conducting a silent film!’ He couldn’t hear a damn thing in there.”“I took it back to Abbey Road and I spent days trying to make it sound like Abbey Road, like the rest of it, and I just couldn’t,” explained Eric Tomlinson. “We gave up in the end. And although it sounded OK in the studio at Olympic it didn’t match up with the preceding or following cue. They almost dropped it but it was too important to drop.”http://www.malonedigital.com/starwars.pdfAlso, 'The Return of The Jedi' (Sail Barge Assault) was 'arranged' (read: ghost written) by Fred Steiner (Perry Mason, ST:TOS, ST:TMP). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattris 416 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I remember seeing a video on Youtube, with footage of the Olympic Sound Studios sessions. Link, anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 So Williams went Zimmer on us in RotJ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 Apparently, it wasn't Through the Flames that was recorded separately, but Superstructure Chase AKA shitty version of TIE Fighter Attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Also, 'The Return of The Jedi' (Sail Barge Assault) was 'arranged' (read: ghost written) by Fred Steiner (Perry Mason, ST:TOS, ST:TMP).Any proof of that?Apparently It's a different fanfare..but I always thought they were the sameWilliam's fanfares all sound pretty much the same. Thats the problemSo superficial, too. No subtext.It lacks the Goldsmith-like ability of getting into the mindset of the characters.no, it's just the 2 fanfares are similar in structures, like he just inverted some notes. when you heart the second one at the end of the score it sounds familiar to the Sail Barge one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,912 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Also, 'The Return of The Jedi' (Sail Barge Assault) was 'arranged' (read: ghost written) by Fred Steiner (Perry Mason, ST:TOS, ST:TMP).Any proof of that?Steiner’s proficiency as a composer and arranger caused him to be called to “ghostwrite” for other composers on occasion, leading to another important contribution to Star Trek. During the high-pressure weeks of postproduction on Star Trek – The Motion Picture in late 1979, composer Jerry Goldsmith called both Alexander Courage and Fred Steiner in to assist him in completing the massive score for the first Star Trek theatrical film. Courage provided two short “captain’s logs” arrangements of his original Star Trek theme for the movie but Steiner wrote a number of the score’s most pivotal and exciting cues (based on Goldsmith’s themes), including the warp drive cues and the powerful “Meet Vejur” cue that underscores the Enterprise’s first encounter with the enormous space entity featured in the film. In 1983 Steiner would perform a similar function for John Williams on Return of the Jedi, rewriting several cues for Williams at the last minute.from his obituary: http://trekmovie.com/2011/06/27/obituary-composer-fred-steiner-dead-at-88/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 And there was weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth on JWFan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Shameful and ruinous. Brian Eno would never have relied on Steiner like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balahkay 627 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 So what was rewritten, but not by Williams? The film version of "Return of the Jedi" or the original version? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,000 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I just can't stand composers who use ghostwriters! I'll throw away my whole collection now! Why can't one person compose, orchestrate and conduct their work?!? Is there no artistry in film music?!?Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 So what was rewritten, but not by Williams? The film version of "Return of the Jedi" or the original version?The full/revised version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balahkay 627 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Interesting, I always thought the original version sounded out of place. Although, I still like it. #SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,912 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I would not call this ghostwriting. Ghostwriting is specifically when a composer writes for another and this is concealed information...as if the ghost doesn't exist. It is kept under wraps and the ghost recieves no credit, no cue sheet, and does not mention this. This is considered a taboo in the industry and is not highly regarded. But when it is out in the open, it is co-writing or arranging. This basically means when Zimmer co-writes a score with others, it is not ghosting. In the case of Jedi with Steiner, it is really more like arranging where the material from the composer has to be adapted to fit a late cut of the film or some type of emergency (such as a previously approved cue is no longer approved since the director just changed their mind and the scoring session is tomorrow but the composer is behind on another deadline). It is important to consider the reason this is done as well. I would not call Fred Steiner's involvement on Star Trek or Jedi ghosting. Sometimes a director wants an alternate idea and the composer will ask another talented composer/arranger to take their material from a previously written cue and "adapt" it for a new scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balahkay 627 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 From what I've read, Lucas wanted to hear the Rebel fanfare and Luke's theme during this sequence, which is why it was redone. A good portion of the the revised cue is adapted from ANH music and the original cue. The revised cue was further changed when it was hacked up to fit the scene since it was further edited even after the cue was recorded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 And the best part of the track (the fanfare in the last minute) was part of the original version anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 I get off from that killer brass like 3:28 into The Return of the Jedi (film version). God, just listen to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balahkay 627 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I remember seeing a video on Youtube, with footage of the Olympic Sound Studios sessions. Link, anyone?I would love to see this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I remember seeing a video on Youtube, with footage of the Olympic Sound Studios sessions. Link, anyone? I would love to see this. Ludwig and Dixon Hill 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balahkay 627 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Thanks! Always nice to see some Williams sessions, even if they are snippets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 So what's the ghost writing claims about?Williams is clearly shown conducting Sail Barge Assault Film Version Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 That doesnt mean he wrote it. William Ross conducted all of COS, and according to many, including you Mark, he didnt compose it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 It's always nice to confirm that the track that should be played in proper sequence is the original Williams cue, and the one adapted by Fred Steiner treated as an actual alternate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Williams considered it "his" enough to put it on the OST release of ROTJ though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 He's as lazy as Hanzy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Trilogy 39 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Ok, we had this a hundred times.Again: There is no proof about Williams using a ghost writer in Return of the Jedi. Even this article on trekmovie.com only referes to the common rumor.I can give you the proof that Ford A. Thaxton was in the archive personally and said that in the manuscript and documents there is no mention about Fred Steiner or any other ghost writer. And those documents don't lie because this is the source where it has to be notated.There is also a guy on FSM (forgot the name) who saw Steiner writing music for ROTJ, because he seems to remember the title on the paper over Steiner's shoulder. But this was a long time ago and he also said that he can't remember exactly, so he could mix something up. Fred Steiner was also asked about it and he denied any influence on the score. Others argumeted that Fred Steiner had a poor memory and that's a reason why he couldn't remember. Supposedly he denied another score where he had a direct influence.But... Like I said, in the documents it has to be stated if there is a cue, which is (re-)written by another guy.q.e.d. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,041 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 What we really need are the original sketches for ROTJ. That'd put the matter to rest in a jiffy, one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted August 23, 2014 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 We still need the original cue titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Trilogy 39 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Well, with "documents" I wrote before, I guess the original sketches are included?That's what Ford A. Thaxton means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,346 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 We still need the original cue titles.Which would be in the sketches... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balahkay 627 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 The SE liner notes don't mention Fred Steiner, either, but I guess they wouldn't if he was supposed to be a ghost writer. Regarding the "Sail Barge Assault," the notes make it sounds like Williams wrote it using the wording "Williams now delivers..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 yeah every few year this arguement pops up, and it involves different RotJ cues, and someone posting it as a "fact" even though there's no source to prove itThat said, I personally find the revised Sail Barge Assault doesn't fit with the usual melodic style of Williams, some transitions seem to awkward and unpolished. There is something off about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Though i doubt Williams would have put it on the short official release if he didn't wrote it, unpolished or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 yeah every few year this arguement pops up, and it involves different RotJ cues, and someone posting it as a "fact" even though there's no source to prove itWhat if it turns out The Dark Side Beckons wasnt written by JW? Sail Barge Assault doesn't fit with the usual melodic style of Williams, some transitions seem to awkward and unpolished. There is something off about itAny more ackward then parts of CoS which uses Potter 1 music? Or the ROTS parts that rehashes music from TESB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Film composers are lazy sods. Tight deadlines are no excuse for such shoddy workmanship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattris 416 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I remember seeing a video on Youtube, with footage of the Olympic Sound Studios sessions. Link, anyone?I would love to see this.Unless I'm mistaken, this clip does not contain any footage from at Olympic Sound Studios recordings -- just some rehearsals of the Abbey Road sessions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Though i doubt Williams would have put it on the short official release if he didn't wrote it, unpolished or not.IIRC Goldsmith left any of the Courage or Steiner generated material of his OST of Star Trek TMP, though he did include some of Steiners work on the 1999 release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Apparently It's a different fanfare..but I always thought they were the sameWilliam's fanfares all sound pretty much the same. Thats the problemSo superficial, too. No subtext. It lacks the Goldsmith-like ability of getting into the mindset of the characters.Yet more mythological bullshit. I'll be right here from E.T. once again demonstrates quite clearly how empty your Goldsmith propaganda is.Now then, find me a Goldsmith fanfare of equal emotion, power and strong narrative sense. I want to hear it! Oh let me guess... it's something from Star Trek. Blegh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Rent-a-Cop is loaded with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 And Mr. Baseball! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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