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BloodBoal

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In case of HOME ALONE, i find it mind-boggling why anyone would object to it. It's cute and done with conviction. The wholesale lifting of this approach for the Tinkerbell sections of HOOK (discussed elsewhere) and parts of HARRY POTTER reeks much more of 'just give them peasants what they liked before' formula.

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I gather that there's still some apprehension that Williams "plagiarized" Tchaikovsky for Home Alone. I think we're on solid ground in assuming that the desire for the "soundalike" (call it what you will) came from higher up since with a composer of Williams' calibre and work ethic (striving to find just the right theme and so forth), it's not in his musical DNA to do so.

He has a strong sense of personal style, so anytime these situations come up, I would be liable to point to the filmmakers as the real source.

Allusion, allusion, allusion. I think the whole point of these nods to Nutcracker ballet music in Home Alone are the associations people have with it and Christmas. It is entirely conscious and obvious that Williams and the film makers were doffing their cap to the holiday spirit of it all. In this case it is a very close allusion but it works so brilliantly.

The Main Titles are also clearly based on "Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy."

Alludes the style yet is not the same. That is the difference.

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Yeah. With Williams, it's an homage. With any other composer, it's a rip-off. Great.

You should know that rule by now dear BB. And yes it is pretty great.

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To play devil's advocate, the same reasoning of allusion could well be applied to the oft maligned Horner. As airmanjerm observes in the Horner plagiarism thread, the similarity between "Battle in the Matura Nebula" and Prokofiev's "Battle on the Ice" goes beyond the musical and into the narrative situation. Homage or plagiarism?

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=20214#entry721833

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Accusations of plagiarism are useless unless you can provide the following:

1) the original source material that the accused is supposedly plagiarising

2) the score of the accused

If the motifs and themes from both sources cannot be shown to be identical in notes, duration, and beat spacing, then you can't accuse them plagiarism.

And don't say their music "alludes to" or "sounds like" a previous source. Any composer worth his reputation and skillset can do those things and still not plagiarize.

Now who's plagiarising who again? Remember, the burden of proof lies with the plaintiff.

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You think I'm insolent? Fuck you!

Calm down Messenger! You are among friends here. And yes you tend to be a bit insolent

"Tu quoque, mi fili!"

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I really appreciate when people get their Latin right. Points for that BB! :thumbup:

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There's a part at the beginning of The Mighty Ducks (1992) music by David Newman that sounds like they used Holiday Flight from Home Alone as temp, rather than the Tchaikovsky original.

But the soundtrack is unreleased....

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I really appreciate when people get their Latin right. Points for that BB! :thumbup:

Ah, yes. The technique is superior to the life of people.

How's my latin, btw? I found it completely apt for my tone poem.

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I really appreciate when people get their Latin right. Points for that BB! :thumbup:

Ah, yes. The technique is superior to the life of people.

How's my latin, btw? I found it completely apt for my tone poem.

Well perhaps more along the lines "Art is higher than the lives of men". ;)

But what or who corrupted the nation that was about to descend to rest/silence? Or do you mean a city? Urbs or oppidum would be more apt. In case of Atlantis "urbs" would perhaps lend suitable grandeur. Unless you mean a nation?

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According to the mythos, the people, through their excessive wealth and flippant lifestyle, corrupted themselves.

And yes, I do mean "nation."

It should translate as "Rest in peace, corrupted nation." Thanks for nothing, Google Translate.

So how would you write it?

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Huh... I thought the adjective would've come first. "Corrupta natio" instead of the other way around.

What about the term "urbs" you mentioned?

And what's your experience with Latin?

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Huh... I thought the adjective would've come first. "Corrupta natio" instead of the other way around.

What about the term "urbs" you mentioned?

And what's your experience with Latin?

In Latin word order is not significant although you can create emphasis with it. Corrupta natio or natio corrupta, works either way.

Urbs means "a big city" and especially Rome itself. Is Atlantis a city or a nation that is the question rather. ;)

And I have MA degree in Classical Philology. I am a Latinist turned librarian. :)

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I would be talking about the island as a nation, not the city (or cities) within it.

So I'll be revising my quote in light of this new information. Ta-da!!

And wow. MA degree in Classical Phil. Impressive.

I haven't even gotten my Masters yet, but I'm already $25,000 in debt. I have to ask; is it worth it? (Not to degrade your MA; I am genuinely impressed, I'm just unsure about the whole short-term debt, long-term benefit aspect to getting an MA in Music Composition)

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I would be talking about the island as a nation, not the city (or cities) within it.

So I'll be revising my quote in light of this new information. Ta-da!!

And wow. MA degree in Classical Phil. Impressive.

I haven't even gotten my Masters yet, but I'm already $25,000 in debt. I have to ask; is it worth it? (Not to degrade your MA; I am genuinely impressed, I'm just unsure about the whole short-term debt, long-term benefit aspect to getting an MA in Music Composition)

If you want a first class education in Western culture then I suppose I can say Classical Philology paid off. Plus of course the linquistic training, extensive knowledge of Antiquity and the training in the general scientific methods of research and skills in analysis and synthesis that will be probably helpful in just about anything you set your mind to. Did it cost a good deal? Yes. Was it worth it in terms of long-term benefit or employment? Difficult to say but I find it useful and applicable almost daily. Did I do it for the money and future wealth? Nah... I did it for the genuine love and interest in the subject. That said I am complementing my degree with Information Science BA degree as it is the field I am focusing on at the moment. With Latin it is either research at university or teaching and the first option is too competetive with very few posts and the teaching just wasn't my calling. And it is funny where you can end in life. I sort of fell into the library world by a happy conincidence.

As for a MA in Composition I would say that if you truly love music and the craft and art of it, it is definitely worth it.

But how about that John Williams plagiarizing everybody under the sun and getting rich and famous for it. ;)

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My understanding is that - at least in America - it's generally better to get a PhD than a Masters in humanities or social sciences (although it largely depends on the individual and the educational offer). PhD's are often paid, and Masters rarely are.

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The Thieving Magpie by Rossini and Aunt Marge's Waltz but it is again a situation of temp track I believe and Cuarón told him to write a Rossini-esque piece for the scene. I.e. Williams had to stay in the same stylistic area for this piece and in all fairness it is again an allusion more than any note for note borrowing.

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What qualifies as a Rossini-esque piece? What techniques did he consistently utilize (besides his being nicknamed "Signor Crescendo" for that very reason)?

And if I hear one mention of Barber of Seville, William Tell or anything opera buffa, I will damn it to the vaults of musical cliché. I'll put them there alongside Fur Elise and Moonlight Sonata.

22vault.jpg

Throw it in here. I dare you. :devil:

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In the meantime, I do understand Poe's Law. Who else here understands it besides me?

I'm not sure, but I really like his poetry, especially the one with the rapping!

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In the meantime, I do understand Poe's Law. Who else here understands it besides me?

I'm not sure, but I really like his poetry, especially the one with the rapping!

That would make a really great detective series, Poe's Law, where Edgar Allan would solve supernatural mysteries in-between writing his most famous work.

Oh and those are some phat beats in that video BB.

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  • 4 weeks later...

From the main page: http://www.portlandmercury.com/portland/americas-composer/Content?oid=12286602

More importantly, Williams' work reveals a peerless sense of generosity and an abiding love for musical history. This is most obvious in the recurring motifs of Star Wars, which point directly to Gustav Holst's tremendous The Planets suite for orchestra: "Mars, the Bringer of War" is the direct antecedent for "The Imperial March," of course, while "Jupiter, the Bringer of Jollity" offers the sense of majesty and optimism that can be found in virtually all of Williams' best-known pieces. His theme for Jaws is a skillful, knowing marriage of Bernard Herrmann's famous Psycho cue and the "Les Augures printaniers" section from Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring. Similar parallels can be drawn to Dvoák's "New World" symphony, Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition (as orchestrated by Ravel), Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf, and the work of film composers Erich Wolfgang Korngold, Alessandro Cicognini, Nino Rota, and beyond.
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In context, the passage is not as damning as it seems out of context. The author respects JW quite a bit, and even places him in league with GEorge Gershwin and Leonard Bernstein. He obviously could have spent more times discussing how JW is capable of contributing his own unique voice, IN ADDITION to his masterful abilitiy to tip his hat to the legends. But the piece was written to advertise a concert, that I'm guessing is just the popular movie music hits. The target audience are not the people that want to hear his Cello concerto, for instance

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I don't even need to say which JW score this references to. Temp tracking perhaps, but it's still shameful.




Another one that is obvious. Again, probably just temp-tracking.

One thing I wonder, is that directors cannot all be great fans of classical music or soundtrack music. Temp-tracking is done by whom exactly? Often I wonder if temp-tracking is not done by the composer themselves from time to time.

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People have got to start letting that Henry V thing go. It's not a rip off. Those first few notes are not an intervallic match, and there are no other similarities after that.

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Honestly, I think Williams' version is better.

Yeap. The opening is the most similar passage (those guitar/harp figures) but after that Williams' actual melody is much better. And that is saying something as Delerue's work is wonderful too.

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It isn't better, it's conveying a completely different thing. It's not as if Williams set out to write a better tune than Delerue, he just took Delerue's ground base and put a JANE EYRE theme on top.

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Is there a list of definitions to peruse as to what constitutes plagiarism/an hommage/an inspiration/a rip-off/paying tribute/emulating/etc?

No.

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There are laws about musical plagiarism. We could start with that. Could someone dig them up? I took a quick look to the wiki page and I didn't see the texts of the laws there.

I don't see what it has to do with John Williams but for conversation's sake...

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I went to the opera in Paris last sunday. I saw Wagner's Tristan and Isolde. Today I read an interview with the excellent conductor where he announced he was working on his next assignment which is Ravel's Daphnis and Chloé. He then added that he had never noticed before how often Ravel quotes this opera of Wagner's including in the very first notes of Daphnis.

I guess that according to some another plagiarist has been outed...

But maybe they already knew it!

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If anybody reads Alex Ross' The Rest is Noise, you will find that every composed quoted everybody, from Bruckner to Schoenberg.

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