The Themes of Howard Shore's The Hobbit

[crocodile 7,983]

It's not even that they're identical. But we've been trained for years now how Shore likes to bend and change musical lines. So it's no wonder we're looking for connections everywhere.

It's his fault!

Karol

[Faleel 5,330]

The thing about the Mirkwood music is that the motif isn't event central component to it.

I have noticed three components to the Mirkwood music, a three note descending motif, the 6 note motif that sounds like Smaug, and the 15 (or 11) note descending B section.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Five!:

Bard the Grim.

Bard the Leader

Bard and Family

Girion/Bard

Laketown/Bard (Yes there is a difference)

Which one is the contrapuntal descending line, as heard in Fire And Water for example?

[Faleel 5,330]

Five!:

Bard the Grim.

Bard the Leader

Bard and Family

Girion/Bard

Laketown/Bard (Yes there is a difference)

Which one is the contrapuntal descending line, as heard in Fire And Water for example?

Timestamp?

[Jay 37,281]

And here's disc 2. Sorry, I didn't get to Thrain

BOFA 2-01 The Darkest Hour

0:02-0:07 Gandalf The Grey

0:28-0:31 Bard’s Family

0:34-0:50 Dol Goldur Army

1:11-2:06 House of Durin (fractured)

2:06-2:34 Thorin

2:23-2:34 Erebor

2:34-3:14 House of Durin (History of the Ring combo version)

4:11-4:30 Lake-town

4:30-5:07 Lake-town/Bard

5:07-5:34 Lake-town

BOFA 2-02 Sons Of Durin

0:02-0:25 House of Durin

0:25-0:55 Thorin

0:55-1:12 ????

1:12-1:26 Erebor

1:33-1:48 Descending Thirds

2:17-2:22 Thorin

2:50-3:01 Erebor

3:09-3:19 Thorin

3:19-3:33 Dol Goldur Army

3:54-4:24 The Warg Riders

BOFA 2-03 The Fallen

0:49-1:21 Thorin

1:21-1:45 The Woodland Realm

1:58-2:16 The Woodland Realm

2:45-2:50 The Woodland Realm

2:50-3:04 Descending Thirds variation?

3:50-3:57 The Shire variation?

BOFA 2-04 Ravenhill

0:44-1:04 Ancient Enemies

1:07-1:25 Gundabad March

2:06-2:12 The Woodland Realm

2:49-2:56 The Woodland Realm

2:56-3:01 Descending Thirds

3:01-3:09 ???

3:32-3:39 Tauriel and Kili

3:39-3:55 Tauriel (B Section)

4:35-5:11 Tauriel and Kili (Intro)

BOFA 2-05 To The Death

0:52-1:05 Legolas/Bolg

1:47-1:50 Thorin

2:42-2:55 Legolas/Bolg

2:44-2:55 The Woodland Realm

3:38-3:45 Descending Thirds

3:50-3:58 Descending Thirds

4:10-4:15 Descending Thirds

4:22-4:38 Nature’s Reclamation

4:43-5:07 Eagle Rescue

BOFA 2-06 Courage And Wisdom

1:50-2:11 Thorin

2:05-2:11 Erebor (B Section)

2:41-3:15 Tauriel and Kili

3:15-3:33 Thranduil’s Theme

3:40-3:50 The Fellowship of The Ring

3:54-4:07 Tauriel

4:07-4:23 Tauriel (B Section)

BOFA 2-07 The Return Journey

0:18-0:27 Thorin

1:01-1:28 Thorin

1:28-1:37 ???

1:37-1:52 Bilbo’s Adventure Theme

2:12-2:49 Bilbo's Adventure Theme?

2:54-3:06 Gandalf The Grey

3:18-3:31 History of The Ring / Thorin combo?

3:32-4:02 House of Durin (History of the Ring combo version)

4:04-4:18 Bilbo’s Baggins/Took Theme

BOFA 2-08 There And Back Again

0:00-0:19 The Hobbit Outline

0:03-0:19 The Shire

0:37-1:05 Bilbo’s Sneaky Theme

1:58-2:12 Descending Theme from DOS

2:22-2:51 The Shire (Modified)

2:58-3:12 The History Of The Ring (almost)

3:12-3:40 The History Of The Ring

3:42-4:20 The Shire

BOFA 2-09 The Last Goodbye

BOFA 2-10 Ironfoot

0:00-2:04 Dain

2:22-2:30 Girion

3:01-4:01 Bard The Leader

4:33-5:02 Lake-town

5:06-5:33 Lake-town/Bard

5:33-6:11 Lake-town

BOFA 2-11 Dragon Sickness

0:22-0:29 The Arkenstone

0:29-0:34 Thorin

0:34-0:39 Smaug A

0:39-0:45 Thorin

0:45-0:51 The Arkenstone

0:57-1:11 Smaug A

1:13-1:24 The Arkenstone

1:41-1:52 Thorin

2:03-2:14 Bard The Leader

2:31-2:50 Gundabad March

2:42-2:50 Gundabad Rhythm

3:01-3:07 Descending Theme from DOS

3:23-3:33 Lake-town

3:26-3:34 Descending Theme from DOS

3:33-3:40 Lake-town/Bard

Fire away!

[Faleel 5,330]

Moved.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Five!:

Bard the Grim.

Bard the Leader

Bard and Family

Girion/Bard

Laketown/Bard (Yes there is a difference)

Which one is the contrapuntal descending line, as heard in Fire And Water for example?

Timestamp?

Well, I don't have one right now, I mean the theme that opens Protector of the Common Folk, the descending violin line.

[Faleel 5,330]

Jay, (IMHO) your splitting up of Laketown/Bard and Laketown in The Darkest Hour (and other places) is incorrect, this is how it should be (IMO)

BOFA 2-01 The Darkest Hour

4:11-5:07 Lake-town/Bard

5:07-5:34 Lake-town

Five!:
Bard the Grim.
Bard the Leader
Bard and Family
Girion/Bard
Laketown/Bard (Yes there is a difference)

Which one is the contrapuntal descending line, as heard in Fire And Water for example?

Timestamp?

Well, I don't have one right now, I mean the theme that opens Protector of the Common Folk, the descending violin line.

I think you are talking about Bard the Grim.

[gkgyver 1,645]

What would Bard the Grim represent then?

[Faleel 5,330]

Moved.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I think you are talking about Bard the Grim.

Sorry.

[wdb408 3]

1:33-1:48 Descending Thirds in "Sons of Durin"? I don't think so...

Also, just in case it hasn't been mentioned before, I've been listening to DOS tonight and thought I'd point out that Tauriel's theme at 1:10-1:26 in "The Forest River" is not just the A section; the B section serves as counterpoint beneath. Same goes for 2:35-2:58 in "Beyond the Forest"; the A and B themes coincide. You all have probably no doubt noticed, but Jay's original post doesn't seem to make that distinction so I thought I'd throw it out there.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

The motif opening both Ravenhill and Courage and Wisdom sounds like a variant of Evil Times. It specifically reminds me of the ghostly fragments of it heard in Sons of the Steward in TTT.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[MedigoScan 324]

Sons Of Durin:

- "00:55 - 01:12": I don't think there's a theme here, but hey, if that can help you identify it: this bit plays when Bard is seen encouraging the Laketowners to keep on fighting.

This sounds like one of the unreleased pieces from 'Forest River' to me

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[MedigoScan 324]

Yeah that one, it just sounds slower in Sons of Durin

[Incanus 5,713]

It's not even that they're identical. But we've been trained for years now how Shore likes to bend and change musical lines. So it's no wonder we're looking for connections everywhere.

It's his fault!

Karol

It's his fault we saw a connection between Bilbo's theme and Bard Family theme, that was an intentional connection...?

The Girion/Bard theme was merely labelled as such for DOS. After BOTFA, there's nothing wrong with seeing the theme slightly differently.

Bard/Girion theme is used 2 times in DoS, first to represent in the flashback the failed attempt of Girion to slay the dragon with a Black Arrow and then again when Bard brings forth the Black Arrow to protect his family. I think it is representation of noble courage of Girion's line that relates strongly to defeating the dragon and indeed the Black Arrow. It is used in BotFA almost exlusively to illustrate Bain's efforts to bring the arrow to his father and Bard trying to slay Smaug.

Bard the Leader revolves around Bard's growing prominence as the leader of men after the catastrophe, showing again the inherent nobility of his family.

Bard and the People of Laketown seems to be a heroic variation on the old shanty which is energized into active resistance by Bard when he leads the men of the Lake against the orcs but mostly it to my ears and with its connections in the film seems to be purely honour the people of Lake-Town, especially when Shore transforms it into that choral lament. I guess you could view it like Gondor (in Ascension) with Bard's musical signature attaching itself to the end of the Lake-Town theme to form a new heroic version of the previous material.

[wdb408 3]

3:51-4:09 of "The Darkest Hour" is The Dwarf Lords, I'm pretty sure.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[MedigoScan 324]

It does cover part of that scene I think

(though also Azog giving out orders)

[Incanus 5,713]

It sounds very much like the retreat music from TTT in style, when the Rohan forces retreat to Hornburg as the Uruk-hai break through (latter half of the Entmoot Decides on the CR). I don't know what thematic association that few seconds has though.

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

I agree with William. No idea why it would be used for Laketowners vs. Orcs (if that was deliberate on Shore's part), but that it's the same theme seems pretty clear cut; the melodic similarity is very precise.

[Incanus 5,713]

I agree with William. No idea why it would be used for Laketowners vs. Orcs (if that was deliberate on Shore's part), but that it's the same theme seems pretty clear cut; the melodic similarity is very precise.

So it was a kind of an homage to his unused concept of Dwarf Lords theme to use it as a sort of elegy in the middle of the battle and nowhere else? An interesting interpretation.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[MedigoScan 324]

no what i am saying is you dont see any laketowners fighting orcs when that music is used

now why Dains scene later shifts to some laketown theme Idontknow

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

Its much slower though.

Indeed, and another difference from the figure's Dwarf Lords incarnation is the harmonisation. Which reminds me:

It sounds very much like the retreat music from TTT in style...

Nice observation. It's the general mood and pace which make one reminiscent of the other, but for the most concrete connection we can look to the chords which (modulo uniform transposition) go:

• Hornburg Retreat: A minor, E minor ; A minor, E minor
• Darkest Hour Thingy: A minor, E minor ; A minor, G major

The same except that the latter has its fourth chord relatively majorised. The Dwarf Lords counterpart is:

• Dwarf Lords: A major, G major; A major, G major

making the Darkest Hour chord sequence a sort of fusion of these two.

(Let me emphasise that I'm not suggesting this was part of Howard Shore's thought process during composition!)

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[KK 3,307]

Yeah, that one also follows the broken minor chord structure of W&R.

[Jay 37,281]

Yea, which is why it's lead to so much confusion for all of us to figure out which passages are Weakness & Redemption, which are Bilbo's Burglar Theme, which are Thorin's Pride, and which are Thranduil's Theme...

[Incanus 5,713]

Yeap.

I wonder what will the Thorin related rising and falling motif from AUJ we named Thorin's Pride be called by Doug and will he explain why it disappears after the first film.

[Jay 37,281]

It's really depressing how many ideas from AUJ disappeared afterwards....

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,281]

It's all very confusing!

[MedigoScan 324]

But Bilbo's burglar theme and 'Thranduil's theme" sound exactly the same.

Not just similar.

They dont sound exactly the same to me

[KK 3,307]

Rhythm is a bit different.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[MedigoScan 324]

well I am still not sure what the GatheringofClouds segment is

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[MedigoScan 324]

after listening to the mirkwood Thranduil themes I am not even sure those 2 statements are the same anymore

[Jay 37,281]

The bits I have listed as "Thorin's Pride" in "Flies and Spiders" and "The Woodland Realm" are what I originally thought of an "Thranduil's Theme", and in all those appearances it plays in scenes relating to Thranduil

[KK 3,307]

Yes. I believe you turned out to be right.

I believe the ideas of "Thorin's Pride" and "Bilbo's Burglar Theme" were abandoned with AUJ.

[Jay 37,281]

It seems to be that way, right? And then he just took the melody of those themes and repurposed it for Thranduil, kind of like you all think he took the melody of Bilbo's theme and repurposed it for Bard's family

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Faleel 5,330]

The Return Journey:

- 00:26 - 00:40 features the melody heard in The Hunters (for Thorin's "end in fire" speech), as was pointed out by gkgyver (and later Fal). Erebor In Ascension (as Fal suggested) sounds like a good name for that theme.

Its the same melody as in 1:33-1:38 of The Courage of Hobbits?

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,281]

OK!

I'm now going to go through each track of BOFA and post an updated version, taking into account the various updates you guys posted since I posted my lists. In some cases I will agree, in some cases I will not, and we can discuss track by track!

NOTE: I know there are some other updates on page 24 before I posted my BOFA list; I'll get to those eventually too!

- Well, if we want to be precise, the first Dragon-Sickness statement starts at 00:14, and continues after 01:04 (the tempo of it speeds up, though), up until 01:19 to be precise.
- Then it shows up again at 01:29-01:45
- The third Dragon-Sickness statement actually plays up until 02:24 (you can hear it faintly in the background).
- Then at 04:18-04:25.
- Smaug A/B theme shows up at 00:39-00:44.
- Smaug's A theme shows up at 01:34-01:40.

Agreed with all of these! - except the last one, that's his B theme

- The theme reappears at 02:40 up until 03:07.

I hear it from 2:40-2:51, then it seems to disappear before returning from 3:03-3:07. Maybe it's the mix? Are you listening to the remixed version you made?

- Then again at 03:55-04:05.

Odd, I don't hear it at all from 3:55-4:05, though I do hear it from 4:05-4:13.....

- Don't know if you want to brand the bit at 04:28 as a theme or not, since it reprises the material for the golden statue in DOS.

Yea... I dunno, what do you guys think? Is this a theme? What does it represent? I'm talking about 4:28-4:45, which is like 3:21-3:40 of My Armor Is Iron from DOS.

- You made a typo: "5:52-5:40 Dragon Sickness", when obviously you meant 05:22 instead of 05:52

.

Fixed!

1:18-1:24 a phrase from unreleased bit of My Armor Is Iron

Disagree, that's just a buildup to Politicians of Lake-town.

1:51-1:55 Smaug A

OK, sure.

4:28-4:45 Smaug Defied

Interesting name.....



Which leaves us with a final entry like this:

BOFA 1-01 Fire And Water

0:14-1:19 Dragon Sickness

0:24-0:33 Smaug A/B

0:39-0:44 Smaug A/B

0:54-1:02 Smaug A/B

1:04-1:19 Smaug B

1:23-1:29 The Politicians of Lake-town

1:29-1:45 Dragon Sickness

1:34-1:40 Smaug B

1:47-1:51 Ascending phrase from My Armor Is Iron unreleased section - what does this represent?

1:51-1:55 Smaug A

1:53-2:00 Girion

2:00-2:24 Dragon Sickness

2:00-2:24 Smaug B

2:24-2:29 Smaug A

2:40-3:07 Dragon Sickness

2:40-2:51 Smaug B

2:51-3:07 Smaug A

3:07-3:23 Girion

3:23-3:35 Bard

3:35-3:50 Bard’s Family

3:50-3:55 Smaug B

4:05-4:13 Dragon Sickness

4:05-4:13 Smaug A

4:05-4:13 Smaug B

4:19-4:26 Dragon Sickness

4:28-4:45 Golden Statue music from My Armor Is Iron 3:21-3:40 - what does this represent?

4:45-5:00 Smaug B

5:00-5:05 Smaug A

5:05-5:22 Smaug B

5:22-5:40 Dragon Sickness

5:22-5:40 Smaug A

5:40-5:58 Erebor

Thoughts and comments!?

[Faleel 5,330]

 

1:18-1:24 a phrase from unreleased bit of My Armor Is Iron

Disagree, that's just a buildup to Politicians of Lake-town.

Uh, compare to 1:39 of this video:

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

I vaguely remember there being a statement of The Nine theme in the "Guardians of the Three" scene in the film. Was that tracked in? Also, can we just talk about how gorgeous that theme is?