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HOOK: Complete Cue List and Chronological Editing Guide


Jay

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11 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Brilliant guide, @Jay. Thanks for this.

 

Just a question regarding the Hook boots (pre-Concorde and Concorde), are there any details about the origin of these boots

 

I assume someone who worked on the scores snuck out some DAT copies of the music and shared them with a friend, who shared them with a friend...

 

11 minutes ago, crumbs said:

or their sound quality?

 

They sound pretty crappy.  The pre-Concorde leak is very hissy, while the Concorde book overcompensates for that by using too much de-hissing software (so a lot of clarity is gone).

 

11 minutes ago, crumbs said:

I'm guessing the boot with the perfect sounding sessions of The Ultimate War (and the unreleased section of The End Of Hook) is the Concorde boot?

 

No.

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6 minutes ago, Jay said:

No.

 

Does that mean this other source is unrepresented in the complete score analysis? Not sure if I missed another thread discussing it.

 

9 minutes ago, Jay said:

They sound pretty crappy.  The pre-Concorde leak is very hissy, while the Concorde book overcompensates for that by using too much de-hissing software (so a lot of clarity is gone).

 

Thanks, I remember hearing these years ago and the quality was mostly pretty dreadful, with a few exceptions (Cornucopia insert being a good example).

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5 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Does that mean this other source is unrepresented in the complete score analysis?

 

Correct.

 

Quote

Not sure if I missed another thread discussing it.

 

Nope.

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Cool, thanks Jason.

 

Looks like Hook's score is a bit of an archaeological mission. Here's hoping MM gets his chance to assemble the score and the missing session tapes turn up.

 

 I'm really surprised Sony didn't have any secondary copies of the Ultimate War sessions or mix tapes. Seems highly unusual for something like that to go missing.

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Well, it's the difference between a soundtrack producer who goes "oh, you don't have everything for this? That's OK, I'll put something together from what has turned up" vs one who goes "oh, you don't have everything for this? Let's push back the release date, and wait until we find everything. I have some ideas of where they could be." 

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I don't envy the position DD was in. I'm sure a big part of getting expansions off the ground involves momentum and luck.

 

Sometimes there might only be a narrow window of opportunity where all the various stakeholders align and want to do it. Pushing back for more time to find better elements might be the difference between the release happening or not.

 

Of course, in the hands of a producer selling that message the right way, I'm sure things would've worked out just fine either way (even if a better source didn't eventuate).

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2 hours ago, crumbs said:

Just a question regarding the Hook boots (pre-Concorde and Concorde), are there any details about the origin of these boots or their sound quality?

 

I don't remember where the original post is located, but Miguel Andrade said something along the lines of the source of those boots being an Academy promo (on cassette!) that his friend in the industry listened to

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54 minutes ago, Corellian2019 said:

 

I don't remember where the original post is located, but Miguel Andrade said something along the lines of the source of those boots being an Academy promo (on cassette!) that his friend in the industry listened to

 

The Academy should create new rules retroactively requiring every Oscar nominated score to have a complete score promo. :P

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As long as this topic has been bounced, I've been meaning to ask: can anyone succinctly summarize for me the completists' issues with La-La-Land's Hook?  I bought it the moment it came out and have been loving it ever since.  What's the beef?

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It's incomplete and they used the film's music stem for some music whose proper session tapes weren't located. 

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What Jason said. It also has incorrect takes, missing film versions, omitted inserts, combined tracks with clean openings and closings missing, retained OST edits, etc.

 

Essentially, it's got Williams' meddling fingerprints all over it.

 

Most frustratingly, the centrepiece for any Hook expansion, The Ultimate War, was taken from the film stems. Apart from noticeably inferior sound quality, it was riddled with volume inconsistency, loops and edits. Plus unreleased sections of cues weren't recoverable due to being dialled out in the final film.

 

Previously I'd have said they did the best they could under the circumstances, but recent expansions have shown most of these issues were avoidable under a different producer's care.

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Again if the materials were missing no one could have helped that issue. But yes perhaps a different producer could have gotten different results in terms of presentation.

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I can certainly understand Williams' reluctance to release some of his music if he feels insecure or unhappy about a particular cue or even score (e.g. Sugarland Express), but artist's perspective on their own work is something we can't always quite fathom when it comes to these decisions. Perhaps because they don't spend long time dwelling on their past works after their release and have particular desire to revisit them and feel that they had their say with the presentation of the music with the original album.

 

Good examples from the LLL Hook set are Prologue at incorrect speed and separating Follow that Shadow from Remembering Childhood. Williams was probably fine with his edit of Remembering Childhood and didn't want the cue Follow that Shadow intruding on that edit so he expressed his wish that it would be made a separate piece on the album. Which in turn made every Hook-loving JW fan blanch in horror at the un-chronological approach that tampered with the overall musical narrative of the sequence they know and love from the film! And JW happened to like the slower version of the Prologue and saw no need to change it. In fact it feels JW wanted to retain the original OST programme as much as possible with the LLL set and bolstered it with unreleased cues sprinkled around this main programme.

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12 hours ago, crumbs said:

Yeah he loves his OST edits. He even wanted to keep Incident on Isla Nublar on the LLL JP set. Another disaster averted. :D

 

Do we know that was John? I thought MM just implied it was someone from "the Williams camp."

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So "film stems" are the music-only tracks from the film mix?  Like the professional version of music-channel rips from a Blu-Ray?  And these are usually lower quality than whatever came straight from the scoring stage?  I think I finally understand this.  I just don't pay enough attention to those details for it to matter to me.  I guess you could call me a "pretty much completist." 

 

As an aside, I still think someone should create a sound system recommendation thread so I can find out what sort of hardware is revealing these vaunted sound quality differences.

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10 minutes ago, igger6 said:

So "film stems" are the music-only tracks from the film mix? 

 

Yes.

 

10 minutes ago, igger6 said:

Like the professional version of music-channel rips from a Blu-Ray? 

 

Kind of, but not really.  They are a music file that never had any sound effects or dialogue, made by the guys who made the film.  Blu Ray rips are all made by fans who are using their computers to extract music from the blu ray's track (which contains music, sound effects, and dialogue all together), generally using the rear channels since most dialogue is in the center channel and most sound effects are only in the fronts.

 

10 minutes ago, igger6 said:

And these are usually lower quality than whatever came straight from the scoring stage? 

 

They always are.

 

10 minutes ago, igger6 said:

I think I finally understand this.  I just don't pay enough attention to those details for it to matter to me.  I guess you could call me a "pretty much completist." 

 

As an aside, I still think someone should create a sound system recommendation thread so I can find out what sort of hardware is revealing these vaunted sound quality differences.

 

There's these:

 

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/12210-headphones/

 

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/25663-your-current-audio-equipment/

 

 

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  • 1 year later...

I was just studying this score, and I'm not sure if this has been addressed or not, but:

do we know if 13m2 To War has ever been recorded WITHOUT the insert(s)?

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The OST album is how they originally recorded it, the film has the Insert that they recorded later edited into it.

 

To be more specific, the Alt Insert (bars 37-39) was already integrated into the sheets (new bars replacing original bars) before they ever recorded the cue, so the "original version" of the cue as recorded is technically "13M2 w/ Alt Insert" as far as sheet music goes.

 

The Insert Bar 37 (bars 37-49) was recorded as an Insert some days later, and edited into the film (and not properly edited in at that), but has never been on any CD release or bootleg.

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  • 4 months later...
On 4/5/2012 at 10:19 AM, Jay said:

Since HTML tables come out really messy on the board, I made a nice spreadsheet that should make things easier to read. Here is that spreadsheet:

https://docs.google....S0E&output=html


Thank you for this. I'm just hearing LLL Hook for the first time after knowing only the Epic CD, much of which I had at one time written off as without a good context. It is so satisfying to hear everything in a grand sweep, especially the battle and that gorgeous exit music (I know there is a favourite <2min cues thread right? definitely a top 5). I love the magical colours in the Tink/Neverland music, the post/Impressionist harmonies. Was missing so much great brass-driven stuff. I was almost weepy at the end and that is saying a lot for this fifty-something fan with "new" material.

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On 5/19/2018 at 10:44 PM, Jay said:

The Insert Bar 37 (bars 37-49) was recorded as an Insert some days later, and edited into the film (and not properly edited in at that), but has never been on any CD release or bootleg.

 

Interesting. I wonder if that insert is "missing" (like the rest of the Ultimate War masters) or was available to LLL during their 2012 release but not included for obvious sound quality reasons.

 

Curious that it's never leaked in one of the score's many bootlegs. 

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2 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

I'm not sure if this question belongs in this thread, but have been wondering: Would the complete recording sessions feature an instrumental version of When You're All Alone?

I think this would be part of it. Moreover there are further concert arrangements that are not part of the original recording sessions, but they should be included, since a third disc would be required anyway.

I'm hoping for a big fat box set produced by MM, sooner than later.

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What I'm still surprised about is why Williams is seemingly okay with everything MM does while he interfered with Hook. Could it be possible that he didn't really interfere but that DD was too busy aping the OST and fearful of going against the great JW? It doesn't add up.

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41 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

What I'm still surprised about is why Williams is seemingly okay with everything MM does while he interfered with Hook.

 

It's not that straightforward. Williams still requests changes even when MM is producing his expansions. The difference between MM and DD is that MM is probably better at putting forth an argument for why his assemblies should be chronological or contain "unnecessary" cues that don't fit Williams' 'listening experience' criteria, and would ordinarily want omitted.

 

LLL's Hook expansion was quite early in the relationship between the Williams camp and LLL, so the trust probably hadn't been built up yet. Somehow I doubt Williams would've allowed, say... Botanicus on the E.T. set 7 or 8 years ago. He's probably softened his stance after reiteration from MM that his OST assemblies will always be available for mainstream listeners (even included on disc 2 when space allows) but the market for these expansions is a niche group of super-fans who crave every note.

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I think meanwhile Williams has changed his view on expansions and recognized that it's not simply freaky fanatics, but 'students' who want to investigate every note and every alternate cue of his scores.

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8 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

I just read through your spreadsheet, @Jay. Pretty complicated and sadly the LLL section is still full of gaps. Where did you get all those information?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "get the information"  - I figured it all out myself!  Oh, the sheet music leaked, so that's where the original cue titles come from.

 

Quote

Is there an overview of what is still officially unreleased?


I think the spreadsheet covers it all?  There really isn't anything in the sheet music leak we don't have a recording of that I can think of.

 

 

7 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

I'm not sure if this question belongs in this thread, but have been wondering: Would the complete recording sessions feature an instrumental version of When You're All Alone?

 

Of course; The music would have been recorded first, and then the girl's vocals later.  What did you think, they'd have her in the room with the orchestra, and have the entire orchestra start the whole song over every time she messed up?

 

 

4 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

I think this would be part of it. Moreover there are further concert arrangements that are not part of the original recording sessions, but they should be included, since a third disc would be required anyway.

I'm hoping for a big fat box set produced by MM, sooner than later.

 

No concert arrangements were recorded at the original scoring sessions, unfortunately.  Luckily, he rectified that be recording 5 great ones 4 years later  following year for "Williams on Williams: The Classic Spielberg Scores"

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I have no idea about recording practices in general. Since Amber Scott also acted, I assumed it wouldn't be unthinkable for her would to have attended a session as part of the job, but now that you say it like that, it does seem far-fetched.

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  • 6 months later...
On 3/27/2019 at 9:04 PM, JohnnyD said:

Just out of curiosity, how was the End Credits sequence suppose to go? Was it End Credits / The Lost Boy Chase (Reprise) / Exit Music?

That's how I have edited it.

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On 3/27/2019 at 4:04 PM, JohnnyD said:

Just out of curiosity, how was the End Credits sequence suppose to go? Was it End Credits / The Lost Boy Chase (Reprise) / Exit Music?

 

Yes, but Williams also specifically recorded a short insert to bridge the Lost Boys piece (which wasn't re-recorded) to Exit Music.

 

On 3/28/2019 at 4:46 PM, Brundlefly said:

Were the Ultimate War cues intended to be one monstrous 20 minute piece from "To War" to "The End of Hook" or are there any cues between which one can make a cut?

 

It's actually longer than that; Williams intended the final TWELVE cues of the film to segue into each other:

 

13m1 Tink Grows Up    
13m2 To War!! 
13m3 Crossed Swords    
13m4/14m1 Form Rank    
14m2 Daddy Is Peter Pan?    
14m3 The Death Of Rufio    
14m4 The Sword Fight    
14m5/15m1 Winning By A Hair    
15m2 The End of Hook    
15m3 My Lost Boys    
15m4 The Next Morning    
15m5/16m1 Kensington Gardens    

 

Approx 33 minutes of continuous music, the longest ever in a Williams score IIRC

 

 

 

On 3/28/2019 at 8:38 PM, Brundlefly said:

So the LLL version of the end credits just arranges the end credits like they were arranged in the movie?

 

The LLL version of the end credits is literally just pulled from the music stem of the final film, like the Banning Back Home film version and the second half of The Ultimate War

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56 minutes ago, Jay said:

The LLL version of the end credits is literally just pulled from the music stem of the final film, like the Banning Back Home film version and the second half of The Ultimate War

The better I know the recording sessions, the more obvious is it how flawed this release actually is.

57 minutes ago, Jay said:

It's actually longer than that; Williams intended the final TWELVE cues of the film to segue into each other:

 

13m1 Tink Grows Up    
13m2 To War!! 
13m3 Crossed Swords    
13m4/14m1 Form Rank    
14m2 Daddy Is Peter Pan?    
14m3 The Death Of Rufio    
14m4 The Sword Fight    
14m5/15m1 Winning By A Hair    
15m2 The End of Hook    
15m3 My Lost Boys    
15m4 The Next Morning    
15m5/16m1 Kensington Gardens    

 

Approx 33 minutes of continuous music, the longest ever in a Williams score IIRC

I wonder how MM would handle this. Create three or four seperate pieces or join them all to one track.

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  • 6 months later...

I am curious about something. Is the last note of Draw Your Sword intended to overlap with the first note of Hoist the Kiddies? On the current expanded release, the cue ends and the next cue begins a second later. It sounded like Draw Your Sword was suppose to immediately segue into Hoist the Kiddies.

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Unfortunately there's no way to know, because his original sketches have never leaked, and the music in question was dropped from the final cut and there's no way to know if the scene was edited differently in the final cut than the cut of the film Williams scored to.

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  • 5 weeks later...

Here's my horn cover of 15m3 "The Lost Boys", which as you know was partly replaced by "You Are the Pan" in the movie.

It really gives the scene a totally different vibe !

 

 

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