The Return of the Jedi and Through the Flames

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

What is is about these two cues from our beloved Return of the Jedi? They sure sound like Williams, but something is just...off? Through the Flames in particular. What was the rumor that they were ghostwritten by some other guy?

[Jay 37,339]

Nothing off about them at all! They are pure Williams, and fit right in with the rest of ROTJ's score and the trilogy as a whole. Dunno what you're talking about!

Love the fanfare that ends them both

[Ricard 2,245]

it's only in the original version of the sarlacc cue)

?

[Jay 37,339]

The fanfare at 1:03 of Through The Flames can also be heard at 4:04 of both versions of The Return of the Jedi, but the Original (Alternate) one is a little different from the Revised (Album) one. I think....

[King Mark 3,631]

Apparently It's a different fanfare..but I always thought they were the same

[Romão 2,274]

They are actually quite different

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

I love both tracks so much. 100% Williams.

on a side note, Return of the jedi (sail barge assault) and The fleet enters hyperspace do indeed share the final fanfare, tough their are not note by note copies.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Apparently It's a different fanfare..but I always thought they were the same

William's fanfares all sound pretty much the same. Thats the problem

[Hlao-roo 389]

Apparently It's a different fanfare..but I always thought they were the same

William's fanfares all sound pretty much the same. Thats the problem

So superficial, too. No subtext.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Through the Flames sounds like it was recorded differently than the rest of the score.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Apparently It's a different fanfare..but I always thought they were the same

William's fanfares all sound pretty much the same. Thats the problem

So superficial, too. No subtext.

It lacks the Goldsmith-like ability of getting into the mindset of the characters.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Through the Flames sounds like it was recorded differently than the rest of the score.

That's because it was.

The cue that accompanied Lando Calrissian’s flight through the inner workings of the Death Star (titled “Superstructure Chase” on the Special Edition CDs) was not recorded at Abbey Road. “We had to go to Olympic for a day and record there,” explained Eric Tomlinson. “And we filled the studio so full – we even had to put the piano on end so that we could get the last cello players in!”

Olympic Sound Studios were located at 117 Church Rd in Barnes, London. Studio 1 was 62 feet by 42 feet with a 28 foot ceiling. Equipment at Olympic included a custom made 24 - input wrap - around console together with custom speakers and amplifiers designed by studio manager and chief engineer, Keith Grant. The microphone cabinet was stocked AKG, Neumann, Pearl and Telefunken types. The orchestra in the “Superstructure Chase” sounds reduced in trumpets, horns and woodwinds and several performance errors can be detected that are not readily audible in the film. “I went down to talk to John Williams while he was conducting,” recalled Tomlinson. “And he just leaned over and said ’it’s like conducting a silent film!’ He couldn’t hear a damn thing in there.”

“I took it back to Abbey Road and I spent days trying to make it sound like Abbey Road, like the rest of it, and I just couldn’t,” explained Eric Tomlinson. “We gave up in the end. And although it sounded OK in the studio at Olympic it didn’t match up with the preceding or following cue. They almost dropped it but it was too important to drop.”

http://www.malonedigital.com/starwars.pdf

Also, 'The Return of The Jedi' (Sail Barge Assault) was 'arranged' (read: ghost written) by Fred Steiner (Perry Mason, ST:TOS, ST:TMP).

[Mattris 416]

I remember seeing a video on Youtube, with footage of the Olympic Sound Studios sessions. Link, anyone?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

So Williams went Zimmer on us in RotJ?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Apparently, it wasn't Through the Flames that was recorded separately, but Superstructure Chase AKA shitty version of TIE Fighter Attack.

[King Mark 3,631]

Also, 'The Return of The Jedi' (Sail Barge Assault) was 'arranged' (read: ghost written) by Fred Steiner (Perry Mason, ST:TOS, ST:TMP).

Any proof of that?

Apparently It's a different fanfare..but I always thought they were the same

William's fanfares all sound pretty much the same. Thats the problem

So superficial, too. No subtext.

It lacks the Goldsmith-like ability of getting into the mindset of the characters.

no, it's just the 2 fanfares are similar in structures, like he just inverted some notes. when you heart the second one at the end of the score it sounds familiar to the Sail Barge one

[karelm 2,912]

Also, 'The Return of The Jedi' (Sail Barge Assault) was 'arranged' (read: ghost written) by Fred Steiner (Perry Mason, ST:TOS, ST:TMP).

Any proof of that?

Steiner’s proficiency as a composer and arranger caused him to be called to “ghostwrite” for other composers on occasion, leading to another important contribution to Star Trek. During the high-pressure weeks of postproduction on Star Trek – The Motion Picture in late 1979, composer Jerry Goldsmith called both Alexander Courage and Fred Steiner in to assist him in completing the massive score for the first Star Trek theatrical film. Courage provided two short “captain’s logs” arrangements of his original Star Trek theme for the movie but Steiner wrote a number of the score’s most pivotal and exciting cues (based on Goldsmith’s themes), including the warp drive cues and the powerful “Meet Vejur” cue that underscores the Enterprise’s first encounter with the enormous space entity featured in the film. In 1983 Steiner would perform a similar function for John Williams on Return of the Jedi, rewriting several cues for Williams at the last minute.

from his obituary: http://trekmovie.com/2011/06/27/obituary-composer-fred-steiner-dead-at-88/

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

And there was weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth on JWFan.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Shameful and ruinous. Brian Eno would never have relied on Steiner like that.

[Balahkay 627]

So what was rewritten, but not by Williams? The film version of "Return of the Jedi" or the original version?

[crocodile 8,000]

I just can't stand composers who use ghostwriters! I'll throw away my whole collection now! Why can't one person compose, orchestrate and conduct their work?!? Is there no artistry in film music?!?

Karol

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

So what was rewritten, but not by Williams? The film version of "Return of the Jedi" or the original version?

The full/revised version.

[Balahkay 627]

Interesting, I always thought the original version sounded out of place. Although, I still like it.

[karelm 2,912]

I would not call this ghostwriting. Ghostwriting is specifically when a composer writes for another and this is concealed information...as if the ghost doesn't exist. It is kept under wraps and the ghost recieves no credit, no cue sheet, and does not mention this. This is considered a taboo in the industry and is not highly regarded. But when it is out in the open, it is co-writing or arranging. This basically means when Zimmer co-writes a score with others, it is not ghosting. In the case of Jedi with Steiner, it is really more like arranging where the material from the composer has to be adapted to fit a late cut of the film or some type of emergency (such as a previously approved cue is no longer approved since the director just changed their mind and the scoring session is tomorrow but the composer is behind on another deadline). It is important to consider the reason this is done as well. I would not call Fred Steiner's involvement on Star Trek or Jedi ghosting. Sometimes a director wants an alternate idea and the composer will ask another talented composer/arranger to take their material from a previously written cue and "adapt" it for a new scene.

[Balahkay 627]

From what I've read, Lucas wanted to hear the Rebel fanfare and Luke's theme during this sequence, which is why it was redone. A good portion of the the revised cue is adapted from ANH music and the original cue. The revised cue was further changed when it was hacked up to fit the scene since it was further edited even after the cue was recorded.

[Romão 2,274]

And the best part of the track (the fanfare in the last minute) was part of the original version anyway

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I get off from that killer brass like 3:28 into The Return of the Jedi (film version). God, just listen to that.

[Balahkay 627]

I remember seeing a video on Youtube, with footage of the Olympic Sound Studios sessions. Link, anyone?

I would love to see this.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I remember seeing a video on Youtube, with footage of the Olympic Sound Studios sessions. Link, anyone?

I would love to see this.

[Balahkay 627]

Thanks! Always nice to see some Williams sessions, even if they are snippets.

[King Mark 3,631]

So what's the ghost writing claims about?

Williams is clearly shown conducting Sail Barge Assault Film Version

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That doesnt mean he wrote it. William Ross conducted all of COS, and according to many, including you Mark, he didnt compose it!

[Ricard 2,245]

It's always nice to confirm that the track that should be played in proper sequence is the original Williams cue, and the one adapted by Fred Steiner treated as an actual alternate.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Williams considered it "his" enough to put it on the OST release of ROTJ though.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

He's as lazy as Hanzy!

[The Dark Trilogy 39]

Ok, we had this a hundred times.

Again: There is no proof about Williams using a ghost writer in Return of the Jedi. Even this article on trekmovie.com only referes to the common rumor.

I can give you the proof that Ford A. Thaxton was in the archive personally and said that in the manuscript and documents there is no mention about Fred Steiner or any other ghost writer. And those documents don't lie because this is the source where it has to be notated.

There is also a guy on FSM (forgot the name) who saw Steiner writing music for ROTJ, because he seems to remember the title on the paper over Steiner's shoulder. But this was a long time ago and he also said that he can't remember exactly, so he could mix something up. Fred Steiner was also asked about it and he denied any influence on the score. Others argumeted that Fred Steiner had a poor memory and that's a reason why he couldn't remember. Supposedly he denied another score where he had a direct influence.

But... Like I said, in the documents it has to be stated if there is a cue, which is (re-)written by another guy.

q.e.d.

[Datameister 2,041]

What we really need are the original sketches for ROTJ. That'd put the matter to rest in a jiffy, one way or another.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

We still need the original cue titles.

[The Dark Trilogy 39]

Well, with "documents" I wrote before, I guess the original sketches are included?

That's what Ford A. Thaxton means.

[Faleel 5,345]

We still need the original cue titles.

Which would be in the sketches...

[Balahkay 627]

The SE liner notes don't mention Fred Steiner, either, but I guess they wouldn't if he was supposed to be a ghost writer. Regarding the "Sail Barge Assault," the notes make it sounds like Williams wrote it using the wording "Williams now delivers..."

[King Mark 3,631]

yeah every few year this arguement pops up, and it involves different RotJ cues, and someone posting it as a "fact" even though there's no source to prove it

That said, I personally find the revised Sail Barge Assault doesn't fit with the usual melodic style of Williams, some transitions seem to awkward and unpolished. There is something off about it

[publicist 4,643]

Though i doubt Williams would have put it on the short official release if he didn't wrote it, unpolished or not.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

yeah every few year this arguement pops up, and it involves different RotJ cues, and someone posting it as a "fact" even though there's no source to prove it

What if it turns out The Dark Side Beckons wasnt written by JW?

Sail Barge Assault doesn't fit with the usual melodic style of Williams, some transitions seem to awkward and unpolished. There is something off about it

Any more ackward then parts of CoS which uses Potter 1 music? Or the ROTS parts that rehashes music from TESB?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Film composers are lazy sods. Tight deadlines are no excuse for such shoddy workmanship.

[Mattris 416]

I remember seeing a video on Youtube, with footage of the Olympic Sound Studios sessions. Link, anyone?

I would love to see this.

Unless I'm mistaken, this clip does not contain any footage from at Olympic Sound Studios recordings -- just some rehearsals of the Abbey Road sessions.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Though i doubt Williams would have put it on the short official release if he didn't wrote it, unpolished or not.

IIRC Goldsmith left any of the Courage or Steiner generated material of his OST of Star Trek TMP, though he did include some of Steiners work on the 1999 release.

[Quintus 5,399]

Apparently It's a different fanfare..but I always thought they were the same

William's fanfares all sound pretty much the same. Thats the problem

So superficial, too. No subtext.

It lacks the Goldsmith-like ability of getting into the mindset of the characters.

Yet more mythological bullshit. I'll be right here from E.T. once again demonstrates quite clearly how empty your Goldsmith propaganda is.

Now then, find me a Goldsmith fanfare of equal emotion, power and strong narrative sense. I want to hear it! Oh let me guess... it's something from Star Trek. Blegh

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Rent-a-Cop is loaded with it!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And Mr. Baseball!