Harry Potter: How Should it Have Sounded?

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I don't understand what he's talking about.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Hedwig's Theme can't be molded into anything else?

What a fucking retard. Hedwig's Theme forms the basis for most themes John Williams wrote across the three movies.

Did he just miss this track?

That is the fucking definition of molding Hedwig's Theme into something different. That's what Window to the Past is, a remolding of Hedwig's Theme.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Depends on how many posts per page you've set in your settings.

Some people like less than 40, BloodBoal.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

And I tend to have the last post on each page.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Well, that was a waste of time.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Indianagirl 298]

I don't understand what he's talking about either. It is like he is trying to appear smart by correcting his complaint with score that is already an important part of the movie.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Halfway through the video, I was asking has he heard the rest of the score? Then he brings up Harry's Wondrous World and it's like he's defeated his own argument.

[crumbs 14,313]

His "argument" makes no sense. So his point is that Williams didn't write a theme that encapsulates EVERYTHING about Harry Potter, rather choosing to write two separate themes (one for magical aspects, one for family aspects) and use them individually where appropriate in the narrative. What exactly is the problem here?

Williams' decision allowed for far greater musical flexibility, especially considering he was establishing the musical language for an 8 film series (of course, Williams wasn't to know that his themes would be ignored by the ensuing 3 composers). It's like saying IJATLC was a complete failure because Williams had a tender father & son theme alongside the Raiders March, rather than writing an all-encompassing theme which would serve both purposes simultaneously.

In short, this guy is an idiot. The end.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[crumbs 14,313]

The most amusing part is when he calls his dull, "sad" piano renditions of each theme as "emotionally deep" and vastly superior to what Williams did with the themes.

Yeah, you keep telling yourself that. You're a modern day Nicholas Hooper with an attitude like that; someone with zero grasp of the material they're adapting, and a completely naive understanding of the complexity of film music orchestration. Frankly, he makes Clint Eastwood's film scores look like Beethoven's 5th Symphony.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

So basically Williams fails utterly by not creating a theme that would fit and encapsulate every possible situation, emotional state and subtextual underpinning presented in the 8 film series? Woe is us!

[crumbs 14,313]

Basically, yes. Total hack fraud. You'd think he'd know how to write film music after half a century in the business.

Thank God we have YouTube commentators to point out his glaring flaws.

[Incanus 5,714]

Did the subsequent composers who tried they hand at creating themes for Harry Potter succeed in creating this "ultimate theme" or is the onus only on Williams in this case?

[Richard Penna 3,687]

Williams wrote one theme for the magical aspect of the story, and one for Harry's family, his friend and co. I don't see any problem here, so I don't understand the point of this video.

I mean, the guy is like: "The theme is not really appropriate, this theme would have been better", then he plays the Family theme, which is from the same score. So, what's the problem? The theme should have been the main one? Who cares? They're both used appropriately in the film: whenever there's a scene between Harry and his friends or his family, you get the Family Portrait theme, and when there's a scene revolving about magic, you get Hedwig's theme.

This. My first thought when he talked about the 'main theme' was... is that actually the main theme? The Harry's Wondrous World melody is used more prominently I'd say, at least in film one.

I can't see how A Window to the Past is another version of Hedwig's Theme though. They have some melodic similarities here and there, but I hear nothing more than that.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

[Lewya 360]

The next John Williams came from a highly unexpected place.

[thx99 1,740]

Repeatedly referring to Hedwig's Theme as a "song" instantly invalidates his opinion...

[Richard Penna 3,687]

I just watched to the end of the first video. I notice he says

... or whether they should have gone in another direction with a different theme...

That's precisely what HWW is! It's another, moldable theme to represent exactly the thing you just demonstrated in the video!

Idiot!

(and yes, use of the term 'song' does not work in his favour)

[mrbellamy 6,286]

I responded...probably a waste of time, but I'm curious to see if he replies

[Richard Penna 3,687]

He did!

Unfortunately, his argument seems to revolve around there needing to be another theme representing 'love overcoming all things', which is an extremely individual assessment of the film.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Frederic Lemon is the new John Williams?

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

This will help me write epic and emotional orchestra songs with lots of feels.

[Richard Penna 3,687]

He did!

Unfortunately, his argument seems to revolve around there needing to be another theme representing 'love overcoming all things', which is an extremely individual assessment of the film.

But there is a 'love overcoming all things ' theme - the one that plays during the Mirror of Erised scene and 'Leaving Hogwarts'. It's both memorable and breathtakingly beautiful. As are the themes in 'Buckbeak's flight' and 'A Window to the Past'. Perhaps Williams's is too good at creating memorable themes, that he can only remember the 'main song'.

True. He's fixated on the idea that because Giacchino wrote a theme that works in different contexts, that JW's 'main theme song' must do the same, while disregarding the other themes he wrote which do exactly the same function.

It's like asking why the main theme can't be given a few chord changes to become both the villain and hero themes.... because scores generally have multiple themes.

What does this guy actually write?

[mrbellamy 6,286]

He did!

Unfortunately, his argument seems to revolve around there needing to be another theme representing 'love overcoming all things', which is an extremely individual assessment of the film.

But there is a 'love overcoming all things ' theme - the one that plays during the Mirror of Erised scene and 'Leaving Hogwarts'. It's both memorable and breathtakingly beautiful. As are the themes in 'Buckbeak's flight' and 'A Window to the Past'. Perhaps Williams's is too good at creating memorable themes, that he can only remember the 'main song'.

Yeah, that's basically what I responded to him with in the comments. He seems nice enough, but obviously made that video with only a vague recollection of the scores.

[Loert 2,511]

I feel that 'How love overcomes this or that' is more important than 'magic', therefore Hedwig's Theme doesn't have enough love feeling in it, here's a better version *plays sappy piano version of the theme*.

Hedwig's Theme is just one motif among dozens of others from the film. And yes, it does have a very magical quality to it, because a big part of the film is...guess what, magic! And yes, it is a major motif, but magic is also a major theme of the movie. So I don't see the problem here.

I also always get very wary when people say that this theme is about "love" or this is all about "magic". The only meaning they have is a musical one. One could argue that Hedwig's theme hearkens back to Harry as a child being with his parents due to the 'music box' sort of sound, which can bring up all kinds of other connotations. I always imagined that the string + celesta runs represent Harry getting whisked away into the world of magic. But that's just my interpretation.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

He seems nice at least, but very misguided and unknowledgeable. Perhaps we can set him on the right path.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

What does this guy actually write?

http://fredericlimon.com/portfolio-a/

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Listen up John Williams. The composer of SplashWorld Resort has a few choice words about your music!

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Just want to add--I'm not dissing his work methods or his enthusiasm. As Mr. Big wrote, he seems like a nice guy. I just thought the way he advertised his job seemed a little trite.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

What my musical career is missing is a hip video of me being interviewed during a photoshoot.

[KK 3,307]

Yeah, seems like a lot of unnecessary fluff. A ruse that anyone with some decent music experience and education can sniff through.

But like Big and Sharky said, seems like a nice guy.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Is this the same guy who improved Rota's theme song for The Godfather? The original was so hollow but now it has the proper feels like all soundtracks need.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Great post mrbellamy!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Most of the sycophantic posts read like "I adore Williams' Harry Potter music, but I think you're right!"

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

But I hate not being able to hate him!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[limonmusic 0]

Hi All!

Frederic here, I found this thread and figured I could reply to the comments! A lot of you bring up some good points, I would like to address. I'll try to get to everyone-- cheers!


(PS And as I mention in my videos, I would love to hear what you have to say -- even if you strongly disagree, I don't believe to be right all the time. And I love meaty discussions about movie music!)

Thoughts?

I think this guy seems to oversimplify everything he talks about. And the whole idea of the main theme being off is ridiculous, given that the music he prefers is actually from the 'Harry Potter' soundtrack and there can be multiple themes in a movie!

Absolutely there can be multiple themes in a movie! I guess what I refer to is the big "push" they made, especially with the marketing of the earlier movies, in Hedwig's Theme being the most prominent one, so that in the mind of the masses, if someone were to ask "what is the main music to harry potter?", people would most likely point out that melody that JW put together of those first 14 notes.

While I could have made the video a lot longer and gone more in depth, I make these videos keeping in mind the masses that normally don't even think about the music in movies. It's a difficult dance between information and brevity that I'm not sure I've coordinated properly yet. In this, I risk oversimplifying, which I can't blame you for feeling. If there is anything in particular in terms of the oversimplification, that you would like me to explain, I would love to!

Hedwig's Theme can't be molded into anything else?

What a fucking retard. Hedwig's Theme forms the basis for most themes John Williams wrote across the three movies.

Did he just miss this track?

That is the fucking definition of molding Hedwig's Theme into something different. That's what Window to the Past is, a remolding of Hedwig's Theme.

I listened to the track you posted the link to- while Hedwig's theme does make a small cameo at 2:17, it doesn't last longer than 10 seconds...the rest of the song is a very different tone. What I mean when I say that Hedwig's Theme can't be moulded to mean something other than Magic, I refer specifically to the melody itself, especially the last 6 notes (E-G-F#-D-F natural-B), are very difficult to modify what's going on around them, or with lower instruments to make it sound like something other than magic, or the mysteriousness of magic. So within those 10 seconds that it makes that appearance, it brought me back to the magical aspect of Harry's world.

But if there is an example anywhere of that theme feeling like it's evoking something - without evoking magic - then I am more than willing to reneg my argument! I am putting a lot of videos out there more and more, and it's impossible for me to be right all the time.

I hope that clears it up in terms of what I mean

Williams wrote one theme for the magical aspect of the story, and one for Harry's family, his friend and co. I don't see any problem here, so I don't understand the point of this video.

I mean, the guy is like: "The theme is not really appropriate, this theme would have been better", then he plays the Family theme, which is from the same score. So, what's the problem? The theme should have been the main one? Who cares? They're both used appropriately in the film: whenever there's a scene between Harry and his friends or his family, you get the Family Portrait theme, and when there's a scene revolving about magic, you get Hedwig's theme.

I guess what I allude to in many cases is how the film was marketed, and how I mentioned in a reply to a comment here that the masses would probably associate Hedwig's Theme as the musical association to Harry Potter before anything else.
The point of the video, is to suggest that it may have been powerful had the directors/producers taken the direction to ask JW to make a main theme as powerful and iconic as Hedwig's, to be the main one that was marketed and pushed, and used as a connecting thread throughout. One that was more mouldable to mean magic, heart, adventure, etc. depending on different scenes.

I don't understand what he's talking about either. It is like he is trying to appear smart by correcting his complaint with score that is already an important part of the movie.

The score that I used, where I say "this could have been better instead", is only an example - as I mention in the video, it's the one that I felt came closest to what I'm talking about. I used it more to illustrate the point, that I feel it would have been powerful had JW been given the direction to compose a score equally as memorable and powerful as hedwig's theme, that would have been more mouldable in different scenes to mean different things, and had that been used throughout the series.

Halfway through the video, I was asking has he heard the rest of the score? Then he brings up Harry's Wondrous World and it's like he's defeated his own argument.

How so?
As mentioned in other replies here, I feel like Harry's Wondrous World came closest to achieving that. The argument is that had John Williams been given the direction to compose a score as equally as powerful and memorable (like my litmus test I mention, that the masses immediately associate this track before any other when they think of Harry Potter), that is more mouldable to mean different things than Hedwig's Theme and used as such throughout the series, that I feel that would have been very powerful.

His "argument" makes no sense. So his point is that Williams didn't write a theme that encapsulates EVERYTHING about Harry Potter, rather choosing to write two separate themes (one for magical aspects, one for family aspects) and use them individually where appropriate in the narrative. What exactly is the problem here?

Williams' decision allowed for far greater musical flexibility, especially considering he was establishing the musical language for an 8 film series (of course, Williams wasn't to know that his themes would be ignored by the ensuing 3 composers). It's like saying IJATLC was a complete failure because Williams had a tender father & son theme alongside the Raiders March, rather than writing an all-encompassing theme which would serve both purposes simultaneously.

In short, this guy is an idiot. The end.

I'll answer to the different points you bring up:
(1) I do not believe John Williams should have written a theme that encapsulates EVERYTHING per se, rather one that at its core captures the heart of the series (with love you can overcome all things), and that is also neutral enough in its composition to be able to be moulded to mean different things in different situations.
As mentioned in my replies to other comments above, I believe that had the directors and producers given JW this direction, and to make this theme as memorably and powerful as hedwig's theme (particularly those first 14 notes, they are perfectly crafted imo!), and then it was used throughout the series in different settings, it would have been very powerful.

(2) In terms of the comparison to IJATLC, I am thinking I have to modify the tone of my videos! I DO NOT believe the music to HP was a complete failure! It is so rich, has so many colors and textures, I love listening to the soundtrack! As mentioned, I believe JW is a genius and love everything he puts out there. I just feel like it would have opened more scenes to be more powerful as a movie-going audience had the adjustment I mention in point 1 been implemented. But the fact that you even wrote the comparison with language like "...was a complete failure" indicates that I don't make clear the praise I have for the existing soundtrack, and how awesome it was regardless. Or else you wouldn't have gotten that vibe. I will want to keep this in mind for any future criticisms I make of movie scores!

Indeed!

We can all thank SUH for that!

I wouldn't have posted this if I hadn't read the YouTube comments. They were all praising his excellent analysis, so I thought I'd get some responses from here to make sure I'm living on the correct planet.

You tubers like myself may get a little too much praise in the comments sometimes -- in the future, I hope more people that disagree strongly post their comments on my channel as well as in a forum like this one, or my youtube comments will seem very one sided.

So basically Williams fails utterly by not creating a theme that would fit and encapsulate every possible situation, emotional state and subtextual underpinning presented in the 8 film series? Woe is us!

He did no fail at all! I hope in the video I conveyed that I do not feel it was his fault at all, rather the direction the producers and director chose to take in terms of the main melody that would be most associated with the series.
Specifically the first 14 notes in Hedwig's theme are very difficult to manipulate to mean something other than magic, or at least have a major underpinning towards magic. In terms of "that would fit and encapsulate every possible situation, emotional state and subtextual underpinning presented in the 8 film series", that definitely would have been overkill! I mean to say, that rather it could have been a melody that is more mouldable, adaptable to mean other things. This can be the case with many melodies, but Hedwig's Theme's perfectly awkward series of notes represent this very cool and mysterious side of magic. But something based on a major 7th chord, or a perfect 5th or 4th, or a variety of many other mouldable voicings could have been used much more frequently in different settings and moods throughout the 8 films, bringing us emotionally back "home" as it ties to the main theme and melody.
But to say that it would be used in "every possible situation, emotional sat and subtextual underpinning presented in the 8 film series" is definitely a stretch - it would be overkill, just like it would have been if they did that as well in the example I give of the movie Up.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Regardless of whether I agree with you or not, I'd like to say I applaud your bravery for coming here, in the lion's den, where people (myself included) have been going on a pretty virulent rant against you. It's courageous of you to face all that anger.