The J.R.R Tolkien Discussion Thread

[Marian Schedenig 8,178]

Alternatively, a narrative oratorio of the Mendelssohn kind.

[Arpy 4,145]

Christopher Lee should narrate it. In a heavy metal setting.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Awfull CGI.

[Bilbo 3,709]

It actually looks like it might be an ok game if only it wasn't set in Tolkien's world.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

"This tale grew in the telling" is what Tolkien himself wrote in his foreword to LOTR.

So who can't the story continue past the limits he explored in his lifetime?

"This tale grew in the telling" is what Tolkien himself wrote in his foreword to LOTR.

So who can't the story continue past the limits he explored in his lifetime?

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

The duet between Ar-Pharazôn and Sauron will be magnificent! And you can always expand the material with writing from the History of Middle Earth series! Sauron's arrival to Númenor will look spectacular!

I've already decided that the part of Sauron will have to be sung by three simultaneous voices: one chanting on a single note, another an octave and a half-step lower, and a third whispering and varying the "pitch" of that whispering.

[Faleel 5,341]

I caught myself wondering what The Lord of the Rings Part 2 by Leonard Rosenman would sound like..

[Kühni 485]

Good thing we'll never find out. One Rosenman take was more than enough.

[Faleel 5,341]

Good thing we'll never find out.

That could almost be seen as tasteless.

[Kühni 485]

That could almost be seen as tasteless.

Perhaps. I hate this score with an intensity I cannot begin to explain. Doug Adams, I believe, once wrote a very spot-on assessment of how Shore's approach to Middle-earth differed from Rosenman's (I think it was in print...FSM?), something about an "about the world" and "from the world" approach. Rosenman's was described by Doug as an example of the former, if I remember correctly.

I heartily dislike the film, too, and Rosenman doesn't do much for me to begin with. His score is part infantile, part arrogant (oh yeah, Imma invent my OWN language for this, INCLUDING MY OWN NAME SPELLED BACKWARDS. Gee, am I ever so witty?!), part completely-wacko. Again, just like the film.

Not quite sure when I'm getting so worked up about this...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I know how you feel. That type of Rosenman music is utterly frustrating because it repulses me even though it's actually quite advanced writing.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

I never know quite how I feel about Rosenman. Peculiar guy/music.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

His Robocop 2 score is beyond defense! As is the movie, actually.

[Jim Ware 526]

Rosenman's personal arrogance seemed to manifest itself in his music, irrespective of any musical quality. I struggle to enjoy any of his scores.

[KK 3,307]

Yeah, my feelings towards Rosenman are very mixed. Guy is clearly a very advanced composer with near ideas, but at times I find him very perplexing. I'm no fan of Rosenman's LOTR for the reasons stated by Kuhni above. Though I must admit, it has some impressive moments, but a lot of it just sounds so unlike what I expect from Tolkien (that cringeworthy main theme...yikes). Guess it doesn't help that I hate the film too.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yeah! But with more phat beats!

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Nah, actually got the idea from one of John Adams' operas.

[Marian Schedenig 8,178]

Good thing we'll never find out. One Rosenman take was more than enough.

One of the all time Great Scores. Probably an early impulse that ultimately made me a film music/JW fan.

[Kühni 485]

It's the result that counts, not how/whence you got there.

CK, putrid philosopher

[KK 3,307]

Nah, actually got the idea from one of John Adams' operas.

His most recent one? Heard it wasn't that great.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

The Gospel According to the Other Mary? I guess technically that's an oratorio, but it is his most recent. Can't imagine what's not great about it.

But I'm talking about El Niño, where the part of Gabriel is given to three countertenors.

Highly recommend checking out both. Some mystical shit.

[KK 3,307]

Oops, I wasn't referring to his most recent. It was actually an opera from 1995; I Was Looking at the Ceiling and Then I Saw the Sky. For some reason I thought it was latest because Austin Wintory made a Facebook post recently "bashing" it after seeing a performance of it the other night.

I've actually heard excerpts of El Nino. There was definitely some beautiful stuff in it.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Yeah, that one is like a song-cycle and is... not really my style. I'm not sure Adams is particularly fond of it himself.

Unclassy to bash it though. Why do so many composers with a Facebook soapbox get such big heads and feel like they need to trash-talk?

[KK 3,307]

Well bashing was too strong a word. It was done tastefully with respect to the cast and Adams.

Here's the post if you're interested:

Happy Sunday! Today I want to ask about opera. Last night I saw a concert rendition of John Adams' opera I WAS LOOKING AT THE CEILING AND THEN I SAW THE SKY and it has provoked me to ask the question:

Is opera anyone's favorite narrative form?

In other words, does anyone enjoy opera more than say, novels / TV / film / video games / theater, etc?

Before saying anything, it's worth noting that the performers with the Long Beach Opera were generally all terrific. A special shoutout is due to Holly Sedillos, whose portrayal of Conseulo I found rather wonderful; Holly of course is the soprano soloist in the recent project of mine THE MAZE OF GAMES and many others, so I may be biased ... I also found Cedric Berry to be utterly phenomenal. Great performance from the band too, and well-conducted (it's NOT an easy piece).

I am going to write more thoroughly about all this on my blog after I soon re-ignite it, but I couldn't help but respond initially here. In short, I thought the opera itself was a disaster. But I have to give Adams points for artistic courage. It's worthy of applause to fail so spectacularly. I will detail the specifics of my issues with it when I write about it, but for now I'm curious to hear about your general assessment of opera.

I'll leave you with this wonderful, timeless quote of Samuel Beckett, which rather nicely summarizes Adams' opera:

"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better."

[Marian Schedenig 8,178]

But I'm talking about El Niño, where the part of Gabriel is given to three countertenors.

Like Mendelssohn using three (?) boy sopranos for the voice of god when he speaks to Saul. A most brilliant effect.

[crocodile 7,990]

Goldenthal used an entire chorus for Beowulf.

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

I saw a preview of this game at EB Games once, and I thought it was an ad for some new Assassins Creed game...you can imagine my horror when I saw the title pop up

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Wojo 2,453]

Sounds interesting, far more than I had suspected it would be. Steam sale.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

I love how the first reviewer thinks the game's content is fundamentally Tolkien, when everything he writes about it screams otherwise.

Seems like typical modern fantasy nonsense.

[Incanus 5,713]

I love how the first reviewer thinks the game's content is fundamentally Tolkien, when everything he writes about it screams otherwise.

Seems like typical modern fantasy nonsense.

Well the Nemesis system sounds intriguing giving the enemies some depth but it sounds like a pretty straightforward hack-and-slash adventure with the added twist of fiendishly adjusting and learning opponents and with a thin plot. Hopefully there is more to this game than mere slaying an army of orcs.

The backstory involving Celebrimbor looks something non-canonical but might have interesting prospects.

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

that tralier looked like a fan film... yuck!

[Faleel 5,341]

Soundtrack is on Itunes:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/middle-earth-shadow-mordor/id924183047

[Incanus 5,713]

The game has the history of Middle Earth completely mangled. The defenses of Mordor were abandoned in the 17th century of Third Age after the Great Plague and were never manned again. This story is set during the time between The Hobbit and LotR but at that time Sauron had the area fully under his control. No ranger, soldier or outpost of Gondor existed near the Black Gates at the time. Plus the inclusion of Celebrimbor of all people into the story is just ridiculous. He died in front of the guild hall of the Elven smiths in Ost-in-Edhil in Eregion when Sauron himself slew him when he came to claim the Rings of Power in the Second Age. Why the heck would his ghost be still clinging to Middle Earth after this, let alone haunting the Black Gates. So much for honoring Tolkien's legacy.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

Yeah, bad-assery goeth before being faithful to the source material. Evidently.

But that was a bad time to lose your head. Must have been a head ache for that orc to realize he was doing such headless things. He will never be the head of his clan now. So that is no way to get ahead in life.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

Heady stuff for sure.

In other (old) news, remember how John Howe was set to provide an original piece of art for The Music of the Lord of the Rings Films book but it in the end the idea fell through. Doug Adams mentions this in 2009 on his blog.

Well I found the piece titled Melkor's Theme (it is the genuine John Howe piece if you are wondering) in the boundless seas of internet and it looked like this:

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

It will be in his magnum opus, The Silmarillion - Tone Poem in 200 Movements.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Who cares?

Talion is BADASS!

"Don't disturb my friend. He's dead tired."

Just saw a commercial for this. Looks EEEEEEPPPPPPPIIIIIIICCCCCCCCC and fucking awful.

[Marian Schedenig 8,178]

I've been listening to Wicked a lot. Too much, perhaps...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Kühni 485]

.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Ok. Send me a $500,000 commission check.

[Incanus 5,713]

Can you send us a demo, not over 3 hours, not under 15 minutes.

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Wow, a new kind of reviewing policy "do and say as the game company tells you to do" is emerging. I bet it is nice to write reviews when there is a list of things you need to do dictated by the PR and indirectly by the game company. Fun times!