What was John Williams' first sign of true greatness?

[Incanus 5,714]

It is interesting to note how Williams 1960s sci-fi entries (the TV shows) seem to avoid direct melody and focus more on the alienness of space and space travel or the sci-fi elements and sense of disorientation and danger that are clearly heard in Williams's scores for the Land of the Giants and Time Tunnel and most of all Lost in Space.

The films he scored during that decade also were mostly flightly comedies where Williams usually followed well worn conventions by doing very quick changes of pace and style, slapstick Mickey Mousing, alluding to genres and pop music of the times at the drop of a hat when the movies switched gears. This resulted often in stylistically fragmented scores for these romps that might work in the movie but are not fluid or cohesive in their overall shape outside it. Still notable is how Williams tried to give these movies like A Guide for the Married Man or Penelope or John Goldfarb, Please Come Home central themes, often derived from the inevitable song of the movie, that were then repeated in the underscore as often as possible in attempt to unify and tie together these often outrageous plots. Romantic caper comedies like Fitzwilly and How to Steal a Million are the best of this bunch but they didn't quite allow Williams to explore more serious modes of dramatic scoring.

None But the Brave from 1965 does contain inklings of Williams's later mastery and there are some familiar stylings that would become prevalent later but also something closer to the suspense and tension writing of Lost in Space which relied on rhythm and texture more than melodic identifications. The main theme of the score is certainly a step in the direction of the Williams we know and love from 1970s.

Still I think that Heidi is one of those scores where Williams was afforded one of his first chances to truly flex his dramatic music muscles in earnest. Jane Eyre a bit later is clear and even stronger continuation of this development.

[John Takis 206]

JANE EYRE compared to HEIDI is, I think, the stronger overall dramatic score -- though for me, HEIDI's "The Miracle" is the strongest individual cue between the two scores. That said, I'm not trying to say that HEIDI is objectively the "first sign of true greatness" (how the heck do you quantify "greatness," anyway?) only that it's a viable candidate and absolutely deserves to be part of the conversation.

Despite this conclusion on my part, John Takis' take on Heidi intrigues me has made me listen to the score again which has been a while. So thanks John..!

You're welcome! I strongly recommend listening to the Quartet release, if you're able. If you must listen to the Label X, I recommend following the Quartet program order as best you can (you'll have to ignore the Label X track titles and go by timings -- and even that will be off, because they left in some annoying post-production looping).

[Tom 4,653]

I see that I am the only person to mention his Essay for Strings, which is a 60s composition. May I ask why others do not see it as an early (predating all of the early 70s stuff) sign of greatness? Is it too Hermannesque to be considered great or original? I find it to be one of his most compelling concert works from any decade.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I see that I am the only person to mention his Essay for Strings, which is a 60s composition. May I ask why others do not see it as an early (predating all of the early 70s stuff) sign of greatness? Is it too Hermannesque to be considered great or original? I find it to be one of his most compelling concert works from any decade.

I'm not looking for only "well composed" as a sign of greatness, but also his own distinct language, so yes, it's not quite individual enough.

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

JANE EYRE compared to HEIDI is, I think, the stronger overall dramatic score -- though for me, HEIDI's "The Miracle" is the strongest individual cue between the two scores. That said, I'm not trying to say that HEIDI is objectively the "first sign of true greatness" (how the heck do you quantify "greatness," anyway?) only that it's a viable candidate and absolutely deserves to be part of the conversation.

I'm with you. And anyway, the title says first sign, and Heidi came before Jane Eyre.

[Uni 306]

Heidi - The Miracle.

Perhaps my opinion is colored by the time I spent working on the most recent release of this score for Quartet Records (now sadly out of print), but if we're talking about the earliest "first sign of true greatness," I think 1968's HEIDI -- one of the first scores to bear the "John Williams" screen credit, as opposed to "Johnny Williams" -- absolutely has to be part of the conversation.

I was going to mention Heidi as well. He really took a big step toward his later brilliance with this one.

Of course, this whole thing is pretty hard to nail down, because for many years "greatness" (in the sense that we seem to be applying here) wasn't expected of him. He was a renowned jazz composer for some time before he became a film composer, and once he did start writing music for television and movies, he was naturally inclined toward the light jazz rom-com role. That's what directors wanted from him, because he'd shown himself extremely adept in that category. And he was good at it—hell, even great at it. As he'd been great at composing jazz ensemble pieces for years before that.

When you talk about the first signs of "greatness" here, you're obviously referring to the specific greatness reflected in the biggest scores of his Golden Age (the "greatness" we continue to burden him with by expecting the same level of genius in every single score he's written ever since). And that's okay, if that's what you want to talk about, but it shouldn't diminish his talents as a composer of a different style of music earlier in his career.

[karelm 2,913]

I think JW showed greatness from the start though all cylinders weren't firing till the mid 1970's. For example, "Rhythm in Motion" from 1961 had a lot of signs of greatness to come. For example, in a listening group where a bunch of composers listen to anonymously submitted music to provide feedback, someone snuck in a track from that album. We all thought - "wow, who is that?" and the feedback without realizing who it was, was uniformly positive. It maybe didn't have greatness but shown there was something special there - magic "x" factor that Simon Cowell would say, "I don't know what it is, but I know it when I see it" that there was something special there. I think it was interesting that without anyone knowing who the composer was on a work that was not their famous/mature style - we all had a very positive response to it and upon hearing it was a 20 something Johnny Williams, we thought "of course", the connective tissue was already there. Each of us was looking around to see who might have a satisfied look on their face but it was a track from that early album.

[King Mark 3,631]

I was watching Lost in Space at a very young age, before Star Wars or knowing who JW was. The music caught my ears and I even noticed the same music was tracked through the whole series...of course it was Williams 4 episode scores re-used for the whole series.

If I noticed it that much even as a 10 year old, then it must be something special

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Nonsense. I noticed the music from Transformers when i was around that age. And that it was occasionally used on GI:Joe.

[King Mark 3,631]

So, it doesn't meant you liked it

to me the LIS music is probably what eventually got me into film scores

[KK 3,307]

I think Jane Eyre was the score where you could hear Williams really coming onto his own. Works before that, had flashes of greatness, but somewhat lacked in consistency. I'd argue Jane Eyre was the score where Williams' dramatic sensibilities had reached that level of maturation befit his status today.

But it was with CE3K that he nailed the complete package though.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ummm...Jaws?

[KK 3,307]

Well sure, but I mean in terms of tapping into his true musical potential.

I think with Jaws, you knew you were dealing with a masterful film composer. But CE3K made it clear he was more than that. It better summed up his range I think.

[Incanus 5,714]

I think it would be fair to agree that when John Williams first let out his first cry after birth was when we heard the first inkling of his greatness. The sheer perfect pitch of that cry sent shivers down his parents' spine.

[Thor 7,495]

I see that I am the only person to mention his Essay for Strings, which is a 60s composition. May I ask why others do not see it as an early (predating all of the early 70s stuff) sign of greatness? Is it too Hermannesque to be considered great or original? I find it to be one of his most compelling concert works from any decade.

I'm with you on this, Tom. I didn't mention it because I assumed the topic was about scores, not concert works. But definitely "Essay for Strings". For me, though, the first sign of greatness starts even before that. It's rather humourous to me how we all put different years and scores as the first great effort -- from the early 60s to the late 70s. Shows how subjective this is, when everything is said and done.

[Bespin 8,480]

When some of you talk about the "greatness" of Jaws (1975), do you talk about the original album or the score?

Because, I will tell you that I have a discomfort with Jaws, and It has nothing to do with the plastic shark they used in the movie.

The original 1975 album, which is a classic, however never obtained a certification (ex. Gold record), at least in the USA, and it took 25 years to get the real score on disc (that was in 2000).

So, what is really great in Jaws, the original album, the score, the TaaaDa... Quint?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I think it would be fair to agree that when John Williams first let out his first cry after birth was when we heard the first inkling of his greatness. The sheer perfect pitch of that cry sent shivers down his parents' spine.

You're going insane old man! Incanus the Mad!

[Thor 7,495]

When some of you talk about the "greatness" of Jaws (1975), do you talk about the original album or the score?

Both. Score, mostly (it's such an iconic masterpiece), but it's obviously a fine album too!

[Uni 306]

So, what is really great in Jaws, the original album, the score, the TaaaDa... Quint?

You really need us to explain that. . . ?

I agree with those who've said CE3K was the point where he attained full maestro status, though.

[Bespin 8,480]

 

So, what is really great in Jaws, the original album, the score, the TaaaDa... Quint?

 

You really need us to explain that. . . ?

 

 

[TownerFan 4,983]

When some of you talk about the "greatness" of Jaws (1975), do you talk about the original album or the score?

Because, I will tell you that I have a discomfort with Jaws, and It has nothing to do with the plastic shark they used in the movie.

The original 1975 album, which is a classic, however never obtained a certification (ex. Gold record), at least in the USA, and it took 25 years to get the real score on disc (that was in 2000).

So, what is really great in Jaws, the original album, the score, the TaaaDa... Quint?

It's somewhat puzzling and amusing at the same time to read such a question on a forum dedicated to John Williams. Anyway...

Jaws is a masterpiece in all departments. First of all, it's great film music, period. It captures the essence of the film (story, characters, setting) and give it its very own soul. It's a great example of Williams' instinct as a musical dramatist--he really translates the overall sense of the film into pure musical terms: from the shark motif (of course!) to the sea shanty-like tunes that accompany the hunt for the beast, the exciting pirate-sounding action music and the gripping fugato-like writing for the battle of man vs. nature. Plus a myriad of other great little musical inventions. All this makes you feel infinitely more excited, thrilled, terrified and scared all throughout the film and makes a wonderful synergy with Spielberg's masterful direction and Verna Fields' tight and gripping editing. Few composers are able to do it so effortlessly, imho. Maybe the closest thing is Bernard Herrmann's Psycho.

It's also great music in its own pure terms that stands up very well as a listening experience (doesn't matter if you like more the original album or the film recording, that's just a matter of personal preferences) because it makes you both relive the excitement of the film's thrills and appreciate Williams' mastery at the art of writing music.

I don't know what you could ask more to film music than this. It's one of the prime examples of the art of applied music that I'm not afraid to put on the same level of the great ballet and opera.

[Thor 7,495]

Furthermore, the main strength of the score in terms of filmatic context is the play with musical rhetorics -- the way Spielberg and Williams play with audience expectations through the presence and absence of the main theme throughout the film (at first establishing the theme for whenever the shark is present, but then undermining that for surprise effect later on when it appears unaccompanied). Or the way they play with audience 'engrossment' -- while we sometimes see things from the shark's perspective, we do not empathize with the POV due to the menacing music. Etc.

But I agree -- it's a bit weird to have to explain the score's greatness in a John Williams forum.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Sadly there seems to be a new generation of members raised on JW's later works. Which are "supposedly" more rich and varied compositionally speaking then his olden age stuff.

It makes me sad sometimes that otherwise smart people like KK cannot appreciate John Williams's true masterpieces for what they really are because of personal bias and a generation gap.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Don't you mean TGP?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Who?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

The weirdo who thinks Interstellar is better than everything.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ah the Zimmer fan.

He is lost, I'm afraid

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

He really did lose his marbles!

[Bespin 8,480]

(...) it's a bit weird to have to explain the score's greatness in a John Williams forum.

It's not weird, your arguments and those of TownerFan almost made me change my mind!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

"Almost" is not good enough!

[karelm 2,913]

The weirdo who thinks Interstellar is better than everything.

That's a bit rough, no?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Perhaps.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I'm rough as guts!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

The weirdo who thinks Interstellar is better than everything.

That's a bit rough, no?

He's the hero JWFAN deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll insult him. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent composer. A watchful poster. A Grey Pilgrim.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

Winning the Oscar for "Jaws" put JW "on the map", as it is one of the two most dictinctive scores ever written.

"SW" sent his career into orbit, form which it has never come down.

To be fair, I think that the AMPAS recoginzed JW's talent before the public did, which is understandable.

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

Winning the Oscar for "Jaws" put JW "on the map", as it is one of the two most dictinctive scores ever written.

Williams has been on the map well before Jaws, thanks to stuff like The Cowboys, several high profile comedies and even a prior Oscar. Jaws just put a big red marker next to his name on the map.

[Thor 7,495]

Winning the Oscar for "Jaws" put JW "on the map", as it is one of the two most dictinctive scores ever written.

Williams has been on the map well before Jaws, thanks to stuff like The Cowboys, several high profile comedies and even a prior Oscar. Jaws just put a big red marker next to his name on the map.

Well before THE COWBOYS too.

HOW TO STEAL A MILLION (1966) is generally considered to be his first A list project that put him on the map among the big leagues, so to speak.

[A24 4,331]

I didn't know who Williams was until Jaws ... so Jaws was the first sign of greatness.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well that settles it!

[Thor 7,495]

I didn't know who Williams was until Jaws ... so Jaws was the first sign of greatness.

You were around when Williams did JAWS? You're old.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He is.

[A24 4,331]

No, John Williams is old!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

I didn't know who Williams was until Jaws ... so Jaws was the first sign of greatness.

You were around when Williams did JAWS? You're old.

I meant, in terms of the public awareness. Read the last line of my previous post, and all shall be revealed.

I bought the "Jaws" score at Christmas 1975, when it was released. Does that make me old?

Actually, Alex never said when he first saw "Jaws"...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You are old too

[A24 4,331]

I didn't see Jaws at the time of release but the music was everywhere. It was one of those scores that led its own life. With Jaws, Williams rose up out of obscurity ... but he had to wait until Star Wars before he became a household name.

Cheers!

Alexandre

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Alexandre hath speaketh!

We can close this thread.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

The weirdo who thinks Interstellar is better than everything.

That's a bit rough, no?

He's the hero JWFAN deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll insult him. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent composer. A watchful poster. A Grey Pilgrim.

Greatest praise you could give me, naturally.

Anyway, anyone who disagrees with my interpretation of Williams' emerging greatness is clearly an idiot. Especially Steed.

[A24 4,331]

Alexandre hath speaketh!

We can close this thread.

It's the most sensible thing to do.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[A24 4,331]

No, Steed!