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Synth Celesta vs. regular celesta


filmmusic

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Those are two different ways of conducting certain pieces. Hedwig's Theme is in 3/8 meter, which means (for the musically illiterate) that there are three beats to each measure, and it's implied that the tempo may be rather fast. At a slower tempo, the conductor would usually conduct such a piece by clearly showing each of the three beats with his or her arms - hence "in 3." It's a triangular pattern. But if the tempo is faster, it's not feasible or helpful to move one's arms that fast, so the conductor will just give a single beat at the start of each measure - hence "in 1." You can see Williams conducting this way in the video that was posted above.

So the long and short of it is...Mr. Kerber didn't realize how wicked fast the piece was going to be while he was performing it. :)

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I'm a bit disappointed that orchestras rarely use a euphonium (in film or otherwise), its conical shape adds a depth, warmth, and fullness that the trombones really can't manage acoustically, and the valves (instead of a slide) give it more dexterity. Not saying it's a better instrument, mind you, just capable of so much. There's a few works out there ("Mars" from "The Planets") that use it (listed as Tenor Tuba), but not many.

:mellow:

To cite another example, the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra's horror film music concert last week opened with The Creation from Patrick Doyle's score for Frankenstein; the lower brass section included a euphonium as well as the usual tuba, bass trombone and tenor trombones.

While we're on the Herrmannesque subject of rarely seen wind instruments, I was intrigued by the sight of a contrabass clarinet in John Powell's suite from How to Train Your Dragon at the recent Concert for Care. I cannot imagine how one can lift it, let alone play it.

This thread has increased my knowledge of orchestration. Thank you all!

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Thanks for the explanation, Datameister. I'm not musically illiterate, but don't know the slang terms in orchestras :) Nice 'Oooops' moment from Kerber there!

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While we're on the Herrmannesque subject of rarely seen wind instruments, I was intrigued by the sight of a contrabass clarinet in John Powell's suite from How to Train Your Dragon at the recent Concert for Care. I cannot imagine how one can lift it, let alone play it.

Every time I've seen the contrabass clarinet used it is on a fancy stand (even the bass clarinet is resting on a small 'spike'); however, supposedly it's a pretty uncommon instrument.

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Thanks for the explanation, Datameister. I'm not musically illiterate, but don't know the slang terms in orchestras :) Nice 'Oooops' moment from Kerber there!

Fair enough!

you can be pretty sure it was played on a synthesizer, and that includes both HP:SS and Home Alone. :)

Not a synthesizer but a workstation.

I'm not sure what you mean.

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Those keyboards with sampled instruments on board (pianos, organs, guitars, drums, brass, strings) are called 'workstations'. Usually they also come with a sequencer. Famous workstations are the Yamaha Motif series or the Roland Fantom series.

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What he said. When you're big enough, you can have what ever you want. Especially if it's percussion (no matter how rare, Emil richards likely has it in his big-ass storage building of percussions instruments).

Horner had five pianos on "Flightplan", and Walker set a record (as I read) for the biggest number of assembled accordians on a film score on "Willard" (remake).

Don't forget Goldmith's use of serpent and conch shell in ALIEN. I spent many years playing trumpet in an orchestra in my youth and never once did we use a conch shell.

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There's the nice story about the Duduk in Russia House. Basically, Goldsmith called Sandy DeCrescent (?) and asked if he could get a duduk for the recording sessions. She said, sure, no problem, hung up, and then started investigating what a duduk actually *is* in the first place. (Recalled from my vague memory... the anecdote is mentioned in (I think) DeCrescent's interview on the Goldsmith docu DVD)

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What he said. When you're big enough, you can have what ever you want. Especially if it's percussion (no matter how rare, Emil richards likely has it in his big-ass storage building of percussions instruments).

Horner had five pianos on "Flightplan", and Walker set a record (as I read) for the biggest number of assembled accordians on a film score on "Willard" (remake).

Don't forget Goldmith's use of serpent and conch shell in ALIEN. I spent many years playing trumpet in an orchestra in my youth and never once did we use a conch shell.

Quoting FAIL. I did that post.

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While we're on the Herrmannesque subject of rarely seen wind instruments, I was intrigued by the sight of a contrabass clarinet in John Powell's suite from How to Train Your Dragon at the recent Concert for Care. I cannot imagine how one can lift it, let alone play it.

Every time I've seen the contrabass clarinet used it is on a fancy stand (even the bass clarinet is resting on a small 'spike'); however, supposedly it's a pretty uncommon instrument.

Even though I was "raised" as a trumpet player, I've been playing Contra Clarinet for some time now to fill out the clarinet section in our Air Force Band. I've been writing for these for a while, but playing it has been quite fun.

One reason you see it "on a stand" so often is that few orchestral works call for it through the entire work. In film music (and orchestral) music, you typically have two or three clarinetists, and they will typically "switch off" on the different clarinets so that all the parts can be player be fewer players. Typically you'll have a section of B-flat (or A) soprano clarinetists who will each have a secondary horn: E-flat clarinet, Bass Clarinet, Contra, etc. Since bands rely on clarinets instead of strings, they use these low instruments more frequently.

The trick to the contra clarinets is that there aren't just one. There's an E-Flat Contra-Alto Clarinet, which plays down to a low F-Sharp (4 ledger lines below the bass clef staff). These are made of wood and get a fairly nice tone. Sometimes they're called the E-Flat Contrabass Clarinet, but this is "technically" incorrect.

Then there's the B-Flat Contrabass Clarinet. This one is more common, but there's a catch! There are two types of these horns made: one is a straight clarinet, made of wood, which plays down to a really low B-Flat (7 ledger lines below bass clef!) if you get the right model. It gets a really nice resonance because it's made of wood, but requires a special stool to sit upon because it is extremely large. THey are also VERY expensive: currently listed online at $23,000. This is the Holy Grail for contrabass clarinetists.

http://www.wwbw.com/Selmer-Paris-Model-41-Contra-Bass-Clarinet-467305-i1431041.wwbw

(I'll point out that cheaper versions of the straight-model exist, but they are made of plastic and sound like CRAP.)

The other B-Flat Contrabass Clarinet is much more cost effective, but they are made of metal and are not straight - they are curved up into a mass of plumbing and often referred to as "Paperclips." They only cost around $12-14K, but for that much it's more common to just get a wooden Contra-Alto and have the better sound for the price. Here's what they look like:

http://hem.passagen.se/eriahl/images/contbass.gif

Sorry for the lengthy diatribe on something way off topic from the original poster...certainly by now you must have all become comatose and short-circuited your keyboards with drool. I have an actual synth celeste story to add here shortly when you've all gotten new keyboards.

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One reason you see it "on a stand" so often is that few orchestral works call for it through the entire work. In film music (and orchestral) music, you typically have two or three clarinetists, and they will typically "switch off" on the different clarinets so that all the parts can be player be fewer players. Typically you'll have a section of B-flat (or A) soprano clarinetists who will each have a secondary horn: E-flat clarinet, Bass Clarinet, Contra, etc. Since bands rely on clarinets instead of strings, they use these low instruments more frequently.

Thanks for the explanation, airmanjerm! I am pretty sure that this was the beast I saw:

contraBASS.jpg

If not the exact model, it would certainly be the one I'd pick out of a police line-up. And yes, one of the clarinettists was doubling (or should I say tripling?) on bass clarinet and contrabass clarinet in the HTTYD suite.

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  • 5 months later...

Sorry to revive this old-ish thread, especially because I'm pretty sure this video has been posted elsewhere on this forum, but I thought I'd post it here for the benefit of anyone who happens to stumble across this thread. The last half of this video features Randy Kerber giving a nice overview of how he created the synth celeste sound for Harry Potter. Basically, he says he used a DX7 to layer a sampled celeste patch with a sine wave, ostensibly with some sort of smooth, ringy envelope to avoid that video game sound. It also shows him playing bits of Hedwig's theme.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlkxqepecCw

It's been months since I first saw this video, but it was only today that I set up ReaSynth (in REAPER) to play that sort of sine wave sound with a soft attack and some reverb. I don't have any decent celeste patches, but this is still awesome because it really does sound like that celeste, just without the attack. For example:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4LM70FOJ

Very blurry sound, but if I ever get my hands on a nice celeste patch to combine this with, I'll be in business. And even as it is, I am SOOOOO geeking out. I've been wanting to be able to recreate this sound for nearly a decade, and the similarity is strong enough to make me grin.

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While we're on the Herrmannesque subject of rarely seen wind instruments, I was intrigued by the sight of a contrabass clarinet in John Powell's suite from How to Train Your Dragon at the recent Concert for Care. I cannot imagine how one can lift it, let alone play it.

The contra isn't as uncommon in film scores as one might think. Herrmann used them in TAXI DRIVER, several of his Harryhausen films, CIMARRON STRIP etc... As has Williams in JURASSIC PARK, THE LOST WORLD, MINORITY REPORT, and all of his STAR WARS prequel scores. Very resonant sound.

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I've performed with a harpsichord before in chamber groups and the difficulty was it took an engineer to tune the damn thing. Then the ORCHESTRA had to tune to IT.

I wonder if it's more of a logistical thing. How would you mic it, then waste how much time tuning it and the orchestra to it? I imagine a synth celeste, being perpetually in tune and easily "mic'd" would simply be out of necessity in the tight schedule required.

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In the case of other scores, or other instruments, I'd be more inclined to agree, but I think in this particular case, it was simply a matter of wanting more control over the timbre, of wanting to get a slightly more mysterious sound that's strongly reminiscent of a celeste, but a little "off."

With a harpsichord, I'm sure tuning must be quite a big challenge, because you're dealing with strings, but the steel bars of a celeste shouldn't be any more inclined to go out of tune than those of, say, a glockenspiel. Could be wrong on that, but I doubt it.

I'm FAR from an expert on the mic issue, but the fact that Williams did briefly use an acoustic celeste in "The Library Scene" makes me feel very confident that that wasn't the issue, either. As Randy Kerber says in that video, real celestes "are around" - they're hardly the easiest instrument to come by, but when Williams wants a real celeste, he gets it. :P

I don't think it would have been a schedule issue, either. I mean, Williams had enough time and freedom to write and record a whole suite of nine pieces never intended for use in the film, in addition to numerous trailer cues, a cue for a TV spot, and two "concert suite" cues for the end credits.

Taking all this into consideration, my guess is that the official reason offered by Kerber (the desire to slightly alter the timbre) was truly the chief reason for the choice to use synth celeste. :)

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I am nearly certain the celeste is from the "Emu" synth set. Also there is a very familiar "Xmas Bells" sound in there used in home alone. Haven't seen one in years though

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  • 10 months later...

Sorry to bump this old thread again, but I had to share. I've combined the aforementioned sine wave with TrueStrike's sampled celeste in a way that sounds very, very similar to the Harry Potter celeste sound. I mean, if I play the celeste part to the beginning of "The Prologue" (the cue, not the track), I actually start imagining that I'm hearing the cellos and basses on that low C. It's awesome. I had trouble for a while because I'm just using ReaSynth for the sine wave synth, and its tuning doesn't match up with the sampled celeste. But I tweaked the tuning and got it to sound quite close.

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Using the Synth Celesta, I think, would allow for quite a bit more control over how the overall sound comes out of the instrument. Acoustic celestas are notoriously percussive, and while they can be controlled to an extent, just the way they are made makes it difficult to get anything but a percussive ding out of them. In the case of Harry Potter... the passages are so fast at times, that the clicking of the acoustic would be very distracting. Also, I think it would be too bell-like, and not soft enough. With a synth, you can control the attack much more to be a softer attack, and still get nice smooth fast passages, which I think was the sound JW was going for.... Light, smooth, fast, and not harshly percussive. If it was played on an acoustic, you'd know.

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Only a Randy Kerber of evil, Darth!

What does that even mean?!!!
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  • 5 years later...

I'm guessing that Williams used both the regular celesta and a synth celesta in Rey's Theme at 0:14. That must be why rerecordings of it by other orchestras are unable to recreate the unique sound of the original. And the same thing happens with Hedwig's Theme covers.

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