La-La Land Records' HOOK (2CD Expanded) Discussion thread

[segliay 0]

does anyone know where the inserts go In the ultimate war

The first one goes at 1:22 and in the film its the part when pan first appears, the second insert is at 3:45 and its the part when pan yells "bangarang"

[Admiral Holdo 16]

Yeah, it sounds like they used the film stems for pretty much all of it (lack of inserts excepted, of course). Which is weird... they couldn't have grabbed an album master or something?

It's the only legit misstep in the package though, at least for me.

[scallenger 480]

Well eff you people. I got a standard bubble envelope.

So did I, Mr.Movies, lol. However, I did not get any cracks on mine at all. Actually I think I have only ever had problems with SAE, actually. I ordered Poltergeist from them recently and somehow, even though it was a new sealed copy, the booklet, including the back cover insert, somehow was all warped as if from mositure. The odd thing was I also ordered The Time Machine (1960) and it had nothing of the sort happen to it, lol. Very strange, asked told them about it, and said I could order another one free with my next order from them, and still need to soon.

[segliay 0]

What is the music that they say is on the OST but not on the LLL set, supposed to be a couple of bits?

[Admiral Holdo 16]

The original ending of Flight To Neverland (which... eh, it's the same thing, just truncated) and The Face of Pan without choir.

There's also some clean openings/endings if it matters to you (certainly did to me with Farewell Neverland).

This CD's been interesting for me - it didn't have the immediate sense of excitement that a lot of these do. It was more sustained (being announced more than a month in advance helped), and certainly more subdued. And reading that JW was involved in leaving things off, that certain parts of the music had to be taken from inferior sources, that tempered my enthusiasm a little bit. Even when the CD arrived and I was stoked, it was still downplayed a bit.

Over the past few days, I've rearranged a few things, moved tracks around, split where appropriate and filled in holes. Listening to the whole thing (well, as much as possible given what's here to work with) in amazing sound... it's breathtaking. And it reaffirms my opinion of just how incredible this score is. It's among Williams' finest.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

My copy of Poltergeist has that as well. I bought another for a friend and it has the warped back cover as well.

[Incanus 5,713]

My copy of Poltergeist has that as well. I bought another for a friend and it has the warped back cover as well.

Pressing problem then most likely. Unless they choose to store their CDs in a moldy old ware house.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Did you get it from LLL?

[Richard Penna 3,662]

Yes, I really don't like the new opening to Farewell Neverland. Not only do you have an obvious fade-in (which takes far longer than it should to get to full volume), but then a crossfade to the original opening, which I always felt worked so well as a quiet introduction to the cue.

Whether it was Williams' decision or one of the editors', bad move.

This set otherwise seems pretty damn good

[King Mark 3,624]

Yeah, don't toss away the OST even if it's only to keep the Farewell Neverland track

They should have included "No More Hook" at the end of Sword Fight, so it would put all the weird edits on the same track instead of affecting Farewell Neverland

[Richard Penna 3,662]

And I just listened to that looping in Ultimate War part 1 - does indeed sound very strange as if they had to use the film stem there too.

Sony should be shot at dawn for losing the masters for this!

[jacksparrow900 32]

everything flows better in order instead of the album edits imo

[Delorean90 42]

I gotta admit, I kinda see where Williams was going with the album edit for "Granny Wendy," mainly in terms of following "Banning Back Home" (either version). I don't know that it won't work to have it in its original form, but at the least it might do with a slightly longer silence between the two. In terms of flow, it seems like "Forgotten How to Fly" is a bit better coming out of "Banning Back Home"; this is enhanced by the fact that, in chronological order, you follow up "Forgotten How to Fly" with the same material, whether you use the film version or the alternate. Longer silence between may help this as well. One big thing in favor of the straight chronological order is that the tone of "Forgotten How to Fly" fits much better coming after "Hook-Napped." I'm torn on this one.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I agree. "Granny Wendy" is one of the OST track that I will probably retain in my personal edit as wel.

[jacksparrow900 32]

where missing the film version of pan is challenged

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The Ultimate War on here is a huge disappointment. Better than the bootlegs, sure, but that isn't saying much.

Overall, this is a very Indiana Jones box set-esque presentation. A lot of tracks in pristine quality, re-ordering of cues, some bad edits, album versions, pivotal film inserts missing, mix bullshit, etc. I think they could have corrected the volume issues.

I'll grade this a solid B. You'll love much of the expanded presentation, but you'll probably still be left wanting more and expecting better.

[Josh500 1,615]

The Ultimate War on here is a huge disappointment. Better than the bootlegs, sure, but that isn't saying much.

Overall, this is a very Indiana Jones box set-esque presentation. A lot of tracks in pristine quality, re-ordering of cues, some bad edits, album versions, pivotal film inserts missing, mix bullshit, etc. I think they could have corrected the volume issues.

I'll grade this a solid B. You'll love much of the expanded presentation, but you'll probably still be left wanting more and expecting better.

Only question is: was this really the best they could do with the material they had, or could they have done better?

[Incanus 5,713]

The Ultimate War on here is a huge disappointment. Better than the bootlegs, sure, but that isn't saying much.

Overall, this is a very Indiana Jones box set-esque presentation. A lot of tracks in pristine quality, re-ordering of cues, some bad edits, album versions, pivotal film inserts missing, mix bullshit, etc. I think they could have corrected the volume issues.

I'll grade this a solid B. You'll love much of the expanded presentation, but you'll probably still be left wanting more and expecting better.

Only question is: was this really the best they could do with the material they had, or could they have done better?

I would wager that they could have done much better but the "overseer" of the project didn't allow for it.

[Josh500 1,615]

I would wager that they could have done much better but the "overseer" of the project didn't allow for it.

Now, that's just a lazy and silly assumption!

In part sure, maybe, but not entirely!

[Incanus 5,713]

I would wager that they could have done much better but the "overseer" of the project didn't allow for it.

Now, that's just a lazy and silly assumption!

In part sure, maybe, but not entirely!

And how do you know that Mr. Smartypants talk-backer? Take a look at the previous LLL releases. PRETTY DARN COMPLETE if you ask me.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

We've been told JW had to approve it multiple times. There's nothing silly or lazy in Incanus' comments.

It sounds like you're looking for someone to blame here, and don't want to face the fact the person responsible is your idol.

[Josh500 1,615]

We've been told JW had to approve it multiple times. There's nothing silly or lazy in Incanus' comments.

It sounds like you're looking for someone to blame here, and don't want to face the fact the person responsible is your idol.

Again, I said, in part sure, but not entirely (for example the volume issue)!

And that's what I meant.

My idol? And your idol is who? Hans Zimmer?

[Charlie Brigden 7]

We've been told JW had to approve it multiple times. There's nothing silly or lazy in Incanus' comments.

It sounds like you're looking for someone to blame here, and don't want to face the fact the person responsible is your idol.

Again, I said, in part sure, but not entirely!

And that's what I meant.

My idol? And your idol is who? Hans Zimmer?

Jerry Goldsmith or JW, depending on the mood.

I feel great pity for LLL though, especially MV given how long he's worked to bring US this project.

[Josh500 1,615]

And how do you know that Mr. Smartypants talk-backer? Take a look at the previous LLL releases. PRETTY DARN COMPLETE if you ask me.

I wasn't just referring to the (un)completeness of the album! I was referring to ETandElliott's post!

Now these can't all be blamed on JW, don't you think?

Overall, this is a very Indiana Jones box set-esque presentation. A lot of tracks in pristine quality, re-ordering of cues, some bad edits, album versions, pivotal film inserts missing, mix bullshit, etc. I think they could have corrected the volume issues.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

It depends on how much responsibility you place on the person that has final product approval.

[Josh500 1,615]

Jerry Goldsmith or JW, depending on the mood.

I feel great pity for LLL though, especially MV given how long he's worked to bring US this project.

And now in you're in a JG mood, aren't ya?

Anyway, I am not blaming anybody. I was just wondering aloud, responding to ETandElliot's post.

I am probably the last one to complain about this release. God knows, I don't much care whether some minor cues are missing or not. My thought was, like somebody else here said, that the material they had to work with was somehow not up to their high standards (was it not properly stored by Sony, etc.)? If that's the case, we can forgot about a better release in the future. Some problems will always remain.

It depends on how much responsibility you place on the person that has final product approval.

And that's something we will never know for certain, unless somebody at LLL or JW directly addresses this issue.

I am not going to blame anybody unfairly, based on assumptions and hearsay.

[Incanus 5,713]

Jerry Goldsmith or JW, depending on the mood.

I feel great pity for LLL though, especially MV given how long he's worked to bring US this project.

And now in you're in a JG mood, aren't ya?

Anyway, I am not blaming anybody. I was just wondering aloud, responding to ETandElliot's post.

I am probably the last one to complain about this release. God knows, I don't much care whether some minor cues are missing or not. My thought was, like somebody else here said, that the material they had to work with was somehow not up to their high standards (was it not properly stored by Sony, etc.)? If that's the case, we can forgot about a better release in the future. Some problems will always remain.

Well yes the storing or rather not storing score elements properly is a problem neither label or composer can affect in any way when they go on a hunt for tapes. We can always hope the lost materials are unearthed some time in the future in good quality so they are not completely lost.

And we all know Williams is a very strong album producer, meaning that he obviously has a vision of what fits the musical narrative he wants to impart in the presentation to the listeners. This has lead, since he is not out to give us all the music as he feels it might not be the best way to do it, to truncated, non-chronological and edited releases in the past. Since he approved the release and the label went for his approval I can imagine that he had pivotal input on the placement of tracks, omitting material etc. Good examples of this are the retained album edits of material that I would imagine would have been restored to actual longer film versions if it had been allowed. The producers, and I am not deprecating to either them or the composer here, had some discussions with him via a proxy and obviously got some of their view points across and so some film versions of tracks are offered outside the main programme as bonus tracks, thankfully. This is how I more or less understand it. It is sort of a compromise between what the label's producers originally wanted (I imagine a complete as possible release) and what Williams wanted.

[Josh500 1,615]

Well, I haven't listened to the LLL album yet, but judging from comments of people who have, I have an idea that there were some problems with the material they had to work with too. There are other Expanded releases where JW had his input, but quality-wise LLL's "Hook" seems to be (slightly) inferior to any of those.

So yeah, I am thinking the material wasn't the best; whether this can be blamed on Sony or not, I have no idea.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Jerry Goldsmith or JW, depending on the mood.

I feel great pity for LLL though, especially MV given how long he's worked to bring US this project.

And now in you're in a JG mood, aren't ya?

Anyway, I am not blaming anybody. I was just wondering aloud, responding to ETandElliot's post.

I am probably the last one to complain about this release. God knows, I don't much care whether some minor cues are missing or not. My thought was, like somebody else here said, that the material they had to work with was somehow not up to their high standards (was it not properly stored by Sony, etc.)? If that's the case, we can forgot about a better release in the future. Some problems will always remain.

It depends on how much responsibility you place on the person that has final product approval.

And that's something we will never know for certain, unless somebody at LLL or JW directly addresses this issue.

I am not going to blame anybody unfairly, based on assumptions and hearsay.

There's no hearsay about it. The LLL press release says "supervised and approved by John Williams". I don't see how that's even open for interpretation.

I didn't mean to say you're personally blaming, it's just deja vu that people at many places are giving flak for the release seemingly without thinking about things.

[jacksparrow900 32]

I'm just greatful I kept Goodmusician's edit he was working on awhile back it has the Never-fest film version

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I'm kind of glad I had no real love for the score or film beforehand, it'll probably make many of the "issues" irrelevant. Hopefully it'll be here tomorrow, chomping at the bit.

[Josh500 1,615]

There's no hearsay about it. The LLL press release says "supervised and approved by John Williams". I don't see how that's even open for interpretation.

No, I don't doubt that part. Never said I do, either!

But again, the fact that this release was "supervised and approved by John Williams" doesn't exclude the possibility that there was problem with the original material too! The volume issue is just an example.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

There's no hearsay about it. The LLL press release says "supervised and approved by John Williams". I don't see how that's even open for interpretation.

No, I don't doubt that part. Never said I do, either!

But again, the fact that this release was "supervised and approved by John Williams" doesn't exclude the possibility that there was problem with the original material too! The volume issue is just an example.

Well no. This is also an issue with blu-ray, because of the marketing and the technology and what we've seen previously, some of us almost expect the picture or the sound to be pristine, which in many cases is not only unrealistic but nevertheless something some cling to.

[Josh500 1,615]

Well yes the storing or rather not storing score elements properly is a problem neither label or composer can affect in any way when they go on a hunt for tapes. We can always hope the lost materials are unearthed some time in the future in good quality so they are not completely lost.

And we all know Williams is a very strong album producer, meaning that he obviously has a vision of what fits the musical narrative he wants to impart in the presentation to the listeners. This has lead, since he is not out to give us all the music as he feels it might not be the best way to do it, to truncated, non-chronological and edited releases in the past. Since he approved the release and the label went for his approval I can imagine that he had pivotal input on the placement of tracks, omitting material etc. Good examples of this are the retained album edits of material that I would imagine would have been restored to actual longer film versions if it had been allowed. The producers, and I am not deprecating to either them or the composer here, had some discussions with him via a proxy and obviously got some of their view points across and so some film versions of tracks are offered outside the main programme as bonus tracks, thankfully. This is how I more or less understand it. It is sort of a compromise between what the label's producers originally wanted (I imagine a complete as possible release) and what Williams wanted.

Yes, a compromise was reached, no doubt.

To be perfectly honest, though, I am quite happy (or at least content) with any of JW's decisions, as long as we get more music. It's his music after all, I really think he should be able to have his input. Meaning I have no problems when some minor cues are missing, when cues are not presented in chronological order, even when some (though not all!) film versions are omitted in favor of concert versions. But what I can't get behind is things like volume issue and uneven sound quality. And we all agree, these things have more to do with the source material than with JW's supervision.

Well no. This is also an issue with blu-ray, because of the marketing and the technology and what we've seen previously, some of us almost expect the picture or the sound to be pristine, which in many cases is not only unrealistic but nevertheless something some cling to.

Huh? Sorry you lost me.

What's this got to do with what I wrote above?

I'm kind of glad I had no real love for the score or film beforehand, it'll probably make many of the "issues" irrelevant. Hopefully it'll be here tomorrow, chomping at the bit.

You know, funny you should say that, but Hook was never among my favorite movies, either! And for years I had mixed feelings toward the score, as well.

But somehow, in the past couple of years, I got caught up in the Hook frenzy. Yeah, it's a great score, although I hold any of the JP, HP, and Indy scores by JW in higher regard than Hook!

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Huh? Sorry you lost me.

What's this got to do with what I wrote above?

Issues with the source material.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I guess the better attitude is to see the glass half full. And in this case, it's a pretty big glass! The LLL gang did all they could to give the best presentation on disc and we should be grateful to them. Yes, there are things that probably could have been done better, but in the end we must see the positive side of things: we have more than 1 hour of unreleased music in great sound.

Oh, and I'm sure this isn't the last time we'll see Hook music officially released on disc

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I guess the better attitude is to see the glass half full. And in this case, it's a pretty big glass! The LLL gang did all they could to give the best presentation on disc and we should be grateful to them. Yes, there are things that probably could have been done better, but in the end we must see the positive side of things: we have more than 1 hour of unreleased music in great sound.

Oh, and I'm sure this isn't the last time we'll see Hook music officially released on disc

This should be framed on the front page.

[Josh500 1,615]

I guess the better attitude is to see the glass half full. And in this case, it's a pretty big glass! The LLL gang did all they could to give the best presentation on disc and we should be grateful to them. Yes, there are things that probably could have been done better, but in the end we must see the positive side of things: we have more than 1 hour of unreleased music in great sound.

Yes.

Oh, and I'm sure this isn't the last time we'll see Hook music officially released on disc

I am not so sure about that (especially if the source material was not up to standard, and they already did what they could with this release), but who knows? I guess anything's possible!

[TownerFan 4,983]

One thing I learned being a soundtrack fan is: never believe anyone who says the session masters are forever lost, destroyed or damaged.

[Incanus 5,713]

I guess the better attitude is to see the glass half full. And in this case, it's a pretty big glass! The LLL gang did all they could to give the best presentation on disc and we should be grateful to them. Yes, there are things that probably could have been done better, but in the end we must see the positive side of things: we have more than 1 hour of unreleased music in great sound.

Oh, and I'm sure this isn't the last time we'll see Hook music officially released on disc

As others have said:

And indeed the hope can still spring from unexpected places.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Josh500 1,615]

But what I can't get behind is things like volume issue and uneven sound quality. And we all agree, these things have more to do with the source material than with JW's supervision.

The thing I don't get is, LLL has been working on this release for about what, three years? And they couldn't try to correct the volume issues during that time?

I can't blame them for the missing material, if it wasn't available or if Williams didn't want to include it, nor about the sound quality of some cues, if the material they had to work with was in bad condition. But regarding volume issues, this is one thing they could have try to correct, and if people who already listened to the set are to be believed, well, they didn't try hard enough.

Yes, exactly!

Damn, when you're not being facetiously humorous, you can be quite astute!

[Incanus 5,713]

Good point Mr. BloodBoal! For once you hit the nail on the head. Have you bought a bigger hammer?

[TownerFan 4,983]

I think that was one of the main reasons why the set got delayed several times. I'm sure they tried to correct volume dips, but it's likely the end result was even more unnatural. Trying to correct a music stem with blocked volume peaks and lows in ProTools is a real pain in the a**.

[Joe Brausam 214]

I guess the better attitude is to see the glass half full. And in this case, it's a pretty big glass! The LLL gang did all they could to give the best presentation on disc and we should be grateful to them. Yes, there are things that probably could have been done better, but in the end we must see the positive side of things: we have more than 1 hour of unreleased music in great sound.

Oh, and I'm sure this isn't the last time we'll see Hook music officially released on disc

As others have said:

And indeed the hope can still spring from unexpected places.

I agree too...I don't see this being the last word on this music.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Maybe Nic Raine and James Fitzpatrick can re-record it...

[Josh500 1,615]

Before we get yet another HOOK release, though, I'd rather see an expanded JP 1+2, HP 1-3, Star Wars prequels, A.I., Tintin, etc. etc.

[King Mark 3,624]

well, of course

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I think that was one of the main reasons why the set got delayed several times. I'm sure they tried to correct volume dips, but it's likely the end result was even more unnatural. Trying to correct a music stem with blocked volume peaks and lows in ProTools is a real pain in the a**.

No, you are being far to reasonable. the guys at LLL are idiots, Anyone here on the MB could have made those volume dips disappear

[Admiral Holdo 16]

I guess the better attitude is to see the glass half full. And in this case, it's a pretty big glass! The LLL gang did all they could to give the best presentation on disc and we should be grateful to them. Yes, there are things that probably could have been done better, but in the end we must see the positive side of things: we have more than 1 hour of unreleased music in great sound.

Oh, and I'm sure this isn't the last time we'll see Hook music officially released on disc

As others have said:

And indeed the hope can still spring from unexpected places.

I agree too...I don't see this being the last word on this music.

True... but it'll do me nicely for however long it takes.

Actually, the more I listen to the LLL arrangement, the more I realize it's pretty well though-out. JW's album edits are pretty good, they make musical sense and don't mangle the music (there's no Anakin's Dark Deeds or Jungle Chase situation here).