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The Desolation of Smaug SPOILERS ALLOWED Discussion Thread


Jay

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I'll explain later (have a bus to catch), but just a quick note that it's not the tracking that's the issue here. The way the score was dialled in and dialled out at random, often leaving massive action sequences randomly silent, followed by bursts of music, was way more than a little jarring.

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I was very happy with the way the score was used in the film. Sure it's not perfect (no Thorin's theme in the barrel sequence), but it's infinitely better than AUJ IMO. Large portions of parts of the soundtrack were there, I think all of the new themes were, and it was very effective. I didn't really have a problem with this. Loved the Dwarven material in particular.

Infact, I didn't have a problem with anything apart from Tauriel. She just didn't feel like she belonged in Jackson's Middle-earth at all. Bard and Laketown instantly feel right, but Tauriel never did. And her scenes with Kili were nauseatingly bad.

Apart from that, I thought it was great (I'll just skip those scenes when watching at home). Definitely needs more Beorn in the extended cut (he was excellent in the short time he had), along with Thrain and Gandalf.

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All I could think of was the ballet scene from Amadeus.

"Herr Jackson, his Highness would like to see the scene with the music in."

There are too many notes.

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Hahaha, wow. This is darker and more serious than the first movie. It's also entirely empty and vapid.

MILD SPOILERS AHEAD

It's possibly the most boring film I've seen at the theaters this year. It takes an excruciating 2 hours of unforgivable exposition and bloat for Smaug to even appear, and when he does he doesn't seem to do much except go on a repetitious hide-and-seek with the dwarfs while spouting generic one-liners (voiced by try-hard Cumberbatch, who feels like a poor man's Hugo Weaving to me). Just when it appears to get exciting, it ends. A dreadful movie.

Top marks for the 48fps presentation again (I hope more films get this treatment soon), but it's from a strictly technical perspective. The movie itself has little or no merits.

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And to quote a dwarf in An Unexpected Journey EE about the use of Ed Sheeran's song in the end -That is not a song, that is an abomination!

I thought it was atrocious and completely out of place.

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The song is bloody awful. And they could have at least given us 20 seconds of Shore music to get out on time. I didn't like having to get up and make a run for the exit having seen a really great film. People probably thought I hated it.

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Saw it last night, and liked it a lot better than AUJ. If you're still holding on to any expectations you might have based on the novel or the LotR films, you can only wail and gnash your teeth at the absurdity that unfolds onscreen. But, having long abandoned those expectations after seeing AUJ a year ago, I was prepared to judge the film on its own merits. What we ended up with is an overblown cartoon spectacle that throws caution to the wind and goes all-in to deliver an experience that may not make for a "good" movie in the strictest sense, but still one that is highly entertaining and just plain watchable.

While the blatant and unnecessary LotR referencing wasn't totally absent, this time the focus shifted to characters and places we've never seen before, giving it a great sense of discovery and helping it feel fresh. Beorn was over with too quickly, but handled well. Thranduil hammed it up and I loved his scenes. Tauriel wasn't as hard-edged as I had expected, and brought some warmth to the film. I REALLY liked Smaug, all the pieces fell into place and Benedict's performance, the voice filtering, and the CG all managed to mesh very satisfyingly. Smaug's face was well-designed, expressive, and believable. Bilbo's confrontation with him was probably my favorite scene in the Hobbit films thus far. Speaking of which, Freeman's performance got more of a chance to shine, and his mannerisms were spot on. The scene where the barrels rolled down the ramp, leaving him behind and unsure what to do, was a great showcase for him.

I hadn't listened to any of the music whatsoever in advance, and the score didn't let me down. There were some themes that were conspicuously absent - I had expected to hear the Misty Mountains theme more than zero times, and Gandalf's more than once, and I had hoped to hear more of Bilbo's themes, although they got a decent cameo when he lets the dwarves out of their cells. But other themes were nicely built upon, especially Smaug's theme, the Erebor theme, and the Mirkwood elves' theme from the AUJ prologue. The action renditions of the elf theme during the barrel sequence were very cool. I also liked the slight expansion of the Erebor theme as the dwarves climb the statue on the outside of the mountain. I caught some nice music for Tauriel's scenes, plus some surprisingly pleasant music for Gandalf's meeting with Radagast. I do agree with those that said the lack of music in a few scenes was conspicuous. But it wasn't a big problem.

On a side note, was anyone else surprised at the level of violence and gore? Like many things in the film, it was taken to an extreme we hadn't seen in any of the other films, with tons of gags relating to orcs dying in gruesome and creative ways. Plus the spider-slaying went on forever and was pretty gross. All the violence didn't necessarily bother me, but was noticeably pronounced this time around.

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We are going around in circles.

It was created for the film. For the end credits AND to be played on the radio, etc etc to promote the film.

The demographic this song is aiming for is NOT us (the score fans). That much is clear. That doesn't mean the song is bad.

Ive heard it a few time snow. On it's own it's decent. But I don't need to hear it in between My Armor Is Iron and Beyond The Forest.

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I loved all the LotR-songs basically. The Finn one is ok I guess, even if it was a disappointment for me I learned to like it more, I think it fits fine for the first film, but it is still way after the lotr ones for me. It is not even in the same league. Sheeran's song outside the film would be ok as music I guess, but it is nothing I would like to listen to voluntarily. Having it in the film is nothing I like, especially not this way it was done, I just wanted to leave the cinema asap with it playing; my initial intention was to wait to hear the Shore credits song, but I couldn't fight the song long enough so I fled.

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I don't know what to think now. I've just seen the film for the second time - in a different cinema but at the same frame rate - and it was like a completely different film. The unusual look of HFR was much less pronounced and intrusive, and the unscored sections were nowhere near as excruciating. Edited passages of music were regrettable rather than disastrous (for the most part).

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My first viewing was in 48fps. It was much less intrusive than it was in AUJ, and there were actually a lot of very impressive moments. But there were some weak spots too. I'll talk about it later in my giant write up.

I plan to view the film in 24fps next week.

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Can it be because you're so attached to the album so much at this point?

Karol

I'm suspicious about this too...I can see where people might have thought the spotting was a little touch-and-go at times, a couple occasions where PJ's attempted use of silence for mood or suspense just ended up halting momentum, but overall it was fine. I don't know what people are getting so cranky about.

The movie was okay, I thought the overall emphasis on character, however contrived or superficial, was quite welcome. Funnily enough, Tauriel was a highlight, I found her and Bard to be the most compellingly portrayed characters and her romance/flirtation with Kili, while nothing special, was sweet and inoffensive, plus it allowed for some of the most beautiful musical moments. I was also pleased to see a few of the dwarves begin to distinguish themselves more as individual personalities, in general.

Freeman is good as ever as Bilbo although he has less to do, and his confrontation with Smaug (who is every bit as good in that scene as everyone says) more or less lives up to the decades of hype built up the book. The action climax, on the other hand, nearly sucked all of the magic out of it for me. Never-ending, completely tedious, and lacking in any drama, not to mention turns an initially cunning and devious personality into yet another CG villain in yet another big, explosive CG set piece. Which was a shame, as I found the action to be overall more exciting and inventive than AUJ.

Oh well. I agree with Jason that this won't be a blockbuster trilogy I revisit in the future and as a whole, it'll probably land slightly higher than the first three ​Pirates of the Caribbean movies and slightly below Raimi's Spider-Man. I definitely wouldn't call it a huge improvement from AUJ, all things considered, but it's certainly not any worse and a decent way to spend the afternoon. Make of that what you will.

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Without much interest in Tolkien lore the film seems pointless. There are some good and entertaining scenes that betray Jackson's waning talent, but by Jove, aren't you people tired of watching the same uninspiring (at this point) big vista shots of a random posse travelling over imposing landscapes and so on? It often seems to re-enact select LOTR scenes as if Jackson were afraid that his precious creation might be harmed by new ideas or - god forbid - a narrative purpose.

There are worse ways to beat 3 hours, but given how enchanting the first look at FOTR was in 2001, it's sad what the franchise has come to.

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I maintain that a large part of the problem is the source material. The Hobbit, however good it is as a children's book is not as good as The Lord Of The Rings.

But PJ/Phillipa/Fran etc trying to give it the same weight and length doesn't really help that.

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Without much interest in Tolkien lore the film seems pointless. There are some good and entertaining scenes that betray Jackson's waning talent, but by Jove, aren't you people tired of watching the same uninspiring (at this point) big vista shots of a random posse travelling over imposing landscapes and so on? It often seems to re-enact select LOTR scenes as if Jackson were afraid that his precious creation might be harmed by new ideas or - god forbid - a narrative purpose.

There are worse ways to beat 3 hours, but given how enchanting the first look at FOTR was in 2001, it's sad what the franchise has come to.

There was something really special about that first hour or so of FOTR that in my view no further portion of the entire saga thus far has come close of matching

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It's bloated, yes, but it's also a bit like watching a museum tour through Tolkienland. And given the great interplay of Sherlock and Doc Watson, i feel a bit sorry for Martin Freeman because he is a hell of a better actor than Elijah Wood.

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Without much interest in Tolkien lore the film seems pointless. There are some good and entertaining scenes that betray Jackson's waning talent, but by Jove, aren't you people tired of watching the same uninspiring (at this point) big vista shots of a random posse travelling over imposing landscapes and so on? It often seems to re-enact select LOTR scenes as if Jackson were afraid that his precious creation might be harmed by new ideas or - god forbid - a narrative purpose.

There are worse ways to beat 3 hours, but given how enchanting the first look at FOTR was in 2001, it's sad what the franchise has come to.

There was something really special about that first hour or so of FOTR that in my view no further portion of the entire saga thus far has come close of matching

I can tell you what the first hour of FotR made special: the feeling of seeing Middle-Earth fully realised for the first time. It should be pretty clear that no subsequent entry can recapture that.

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All of FotR is special. It's an amazing film from start to finish.

The other two, while lesser, weren't too shabby either. In fact they were often spectacular; and I'm not talking about their special effects.

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FOTR has the strongest and clearest narrative. The closest to the book by far, despite the many changes. And the enviroment feels the most real.

In the last point TTT is a close second, starting with ROTK it starts to feel less like New Zealand and more like a CGI created/colorgraded world.

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i feel a bit sorry for Martin Freeman because he is a hell of a better actor than Elijah Wood.

On a sidenote: I was listening to Radio 2 this morning on the way to work and for some reason Ben Stiller openly asked James Nesbitt (who was promoting the movie on the breakfast show) if the rumours were true that Freeman was as notoriously difficult to work with as he'd apparently heard. Nesbitt answered the question without hesitation and with... diplomatic eloquence.

But make no mistake he got the message across. I was only slightly surprised - there's always been something strangely irritating about the chap.

In the last point TTT is a close second, starting with ROTK it starts to feel less like New Zealand and more like a CGI created/colorgraded world.

I love TTT, but RotK slaughters it.

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OK some stray throughts

I really liked the opening prologue, thought it was a bit jarring seeing Bree digitally re-created with bad CGI rain falling on it (maybe this was a fault of the HFR 3D, and it looks better in 2D, I dunno). Though it is a bit annoying to have Thorin and Gandalf set up Thrain's story here, and then it isn't shown (I can't wait for the EE!)

After the prologue, things get really messy for a while. The editing from the catch-up to present day until the company is walking through Mirkwood is ALL over the place. They are discussing hiding from Azog at night in the woods.... then they are running across a plain in the day... then they are in the woods at night again.... etc. Then at Beorn's house things were equally oddly edited and rushed. Bilbo wakes up to a giant bumblebee on him... then he's asleep again and waking up again. He goes into the kitchen and we don't get introduced to Beorn because everyone else apparently already met him while Bilbo slept. Then before you know it they have left. I have to imagine the EE will feature a ton of stuff added to this portion of the film, cause I doubt it was written this way.

I really miss the way Beorn was handled in the boook hear. It's one of my favorite bits in the book, how Gandalf's knows Beorn and how he works and that having the entire company meet him at once would be so much, so he begins telling Beorn the story of their journey, and has the dwarves come in 2 at a time a few minutes apart, etc. That would have been great to see filmed, instead of another pointless chase into his house and then just having Beorn immediately be fine with them all being there. Blah.

Mirkwood was great. One of the things I like about the LOTR/TH films is when PJ brings something to the screen that no other director would have and it really works, like the way Saruman and Gandalf's fight was choreographed in LOTR. I liked how Mirkwood was set up, with the hallucinations, that shot of Bilbo's feet walking backwards was trippy! I did miss Bombur falling into the river though (maybe it will be in the EE?). And then just when I was on board with the movie again, they go and ruin it all. I loved how in the book they are trying to stay on the road, but are getting hungry, and see the elve's feasting, but every time they get close they disappear, then can't find their way back to the road, etc. Why not include that? It was cool seeing Bilbo save the day with the ring and Sting, but the way PJ kept fading the music out took a lot of tension and flow out of the scene. It was a really poor decision.

The Woodland Realm was nicely realized, I enjoyed Thranduil and Legolas and Tauriel's interactions and everything that happens there was fine. Seeing Legolas back again was neither great or stupid, it was just....a non-issue. Movie would have been the same with or without him. I liked everything about Tauriel's character, I thought she was a great addition. I liked her fighting style, her look, and how she was thoughtful about the outside world, as opposed to Thranduil who only cares about what goes on within his borders.

After the Forest River chase, which was fine apart from the awkward starting and stopping of music and some bad CGI for Bombur flying around, the movie kinda fell apart again. The High Feels sequence felt like something that should have been in Film 1 and not Film 2, as it's Film 1 where Radagast finds the Morgul blade - wrapping up The Nine stuff in the same movie it was introduced would have made more sense, since they aren't mentioned again after this scene ( though I am sure they will be at BOFA in TABA).

Dol Guldur wasn't realized satisfactory to me. The small portion of it we saw in AUJ was fine, but here I dunno, it was just odd. A bunch of orcs and wolves living in ruins, where do they sleep, what do they eat, what do they do all day, just train? The Necromancer being a enormous cloud of black smoke was weird, why would there be rumors of a human sorceror living there if it's really a 50 foot tall smoke cloud? I thought it looked cool when he became The Eye which became a flaming Second Age Sauron, but WHY int he world would he keep Gandalf alive instead of just killing him? I hate it when movies do that. I would have kept to what Tolkien wrote - that Gandalf discovered Sauron was there without being discovered by Sauron. Bah.

Lake-town was OK I guess. I liked that it felt more like a real set and less like green screen and CGI like most locations, and Bard was a cool enough character (I liked that he had a family). But The Master and Alfrid had nothing to do, I found all there scenes to be pointless. I didn't really get why they were in the film at all. I also REALLY disliked a huge change they made to the book - in the book, Smaug is completely covered in jewels that are stuck to him, and Bilbo is the only one who noticed that there is one spot uncovered by jewels and scales, and that information gets passed back to Bard via a thrush. In the film it is invented that Girion's arrows knocked off some scales and everyone already knows Smaug has a weak spot, so when Bilbo sees it he is like "the stories are true" or whatever. HUGE, disappointing change. WHY PJ WHY??

I actually didn't really mind that orc assassins come to Lake-town to try to capture Thorin, they have after all been chasing him since Film 1. Part of the problem though is that once Legolas and Tauriel start fighting orcs everywhere, it ends up feeling like we are seeing the same thing over and over again, it was all the same kind of fighting as the barrel chase. And it was odd that Bolg seemed to have an endless supply of orcs, no matter how many got killed there was always so many more. Legolas and Tauriel are portrayed and immortal and unstoppable orc killing machines who never miss their mark and take any orc out with one stab, and the orcs are shown as incompetent who never accomplish anything except one arrow into Kili.

Speaking of Kili, I kinda didn't mind his injury and that 3 dwarves stay behind with him instead of going into Erebor. But I think PJ should have chosen a different Elf to be the one that flirts with Tauriel, Kili and Fili should be in the mountain with Thorin as his closest kin. Silly move. Oh yea, and I also thought it was kind of interesting that the company loses all their weapons at Thranduil's and never gets them back. I guess Orcrist is Legolas's now? I suppose before the BOFA starts they will find new weapons inside Erebor.

Speaking of Erebor, just like in AUJ where Bilbo's iconic scene meeting Gollum was the film's highlight, Bilbo's iconic scene meeting Smaug was the best scene of the film here. Everything was perfect really, from the performances of Freeman and Cumberbatch, to the staging of the scene and the set design, and the flawless CGI. Smaug was really spectacular - apart from the REALLY REALLY REALLY dumb decision to give him wings that end in hands rather than having 4 normal limbs with wings that aren't attached to them. HORRIBLE DECISION!

I loved Bilbo and Smaug's back and forth dialogue, and the thing with names like Barrel rider and such. And eventually it kind gets to the place like in the book where Smaug decides to go attack Lake-town. But in between, we have the really, really long and really strange fight / chase sequence with the dwarves and Bilbo running around, drawing Smaug to places, trying to eventually cover him in molten gold (?). WTF? I dunno how in a million years PJ came up with this idea. The truth is, I absolutely don't mind at all creating a scene where the dwarves fight Smaug directly inside Erebor, it's kind of nice to get to see that rather than him just flying away and dying shortly after he's introduced. But the entire sequence with the giant kilns and everything going on was strange, and the way it was shot it seems lie the dwarves should have been roasted 5 times over by Smaug's fire breath.

In the end though, Smaug flies out and the film's cliffhanger is not as bad as I was expecting, except for the fact that it's hurt by a lack of musical underscore and poor transition to end credits, that should have had score cues play right into it, that settled down from the action climax and smoothly transitioned to the start of the song. It was a poor idea to start the song clean like that right after the film ended.

Overall a disappointing movie for me, but one I will see again in the theater and of course when the EE comes out, no question. I like the overall story they are telling here and am curious how it will end in PJ's world and how he will tie it back to LOTR. But I just can't understand his continual need to replace things that were really cool in the book or appendix with new ideas when the original ones would have worked on screen just fine. Most of his straight up additions are not that bad, but the changes are head-scratchers.

Other stray thoughts;

I don't believe Legolas's name is ever once mentioned on screen. Tauriel calls him by an Elven name at one point but that is it.

Gandalf intending to go into Mirkwood with them, then suddenly getting a telepathic call from Galadriel and leaving was really dumb and awkwardly acted, stage,d and edited. It can't be do to the reshooting and moving of the High Fells sequence, since Gandalf was always going to leave the company before going in, so why was it written so poorly?

There was a shot of Gandalf entering Dol Goldur that appeared way back in the first teaser trailer. It's kinda funny that in the original 2 film structure, Gandalf would have already explored the High Fells AND Dol Guldur in Film 1, which would have climaxed with the forest river chase... and now in the new structure, he hasn't even been to either place by the end of the forest river chase!

Bilbo's Fussy theme was used for a shot of Dwalin coming out of Bard's toilet, that was odd. Shame the company's Adventure theme wasn't used somewhere.

There's a scene where Bard suddenly realized he's heard the name Thorin before, then runs to some room, finds some scroll, and goes aha, he's the son of Thrain, who's the son of Thror! Then he runs outside where.... everybody already knows who Thorin is. What a odd scene! What was the point?

I thought the motion capture and CGI for both Azog and Bolg were pretty bad in this film. Especially when Legolas was fighting Bolg hand-to-hand. Absolutely should have been guys in prosthetics!!

Oh yea, the Arkenstone! It was the focus of much of Bilbo and Smaug's encounter, with Bilbo constantly running after it and trying to pocket it. But then...... we never find out if he got it! We see Thorin ask him about it, he avoids the question.... and then that's it! WTF? Why don't we the audience know if he got it or not? I didn't get it...

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PJ obviously liked to keep us guessing if he does have it at this point.

I agree with quite a lot of what you said, but i really enjoyed the film.

But what are all these comments I read about the cliffhanger being bad?

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