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I am tending to believe that he's been at his peak ever since Jaws ... sure there are some up and downs in his career (right after Schindler's List, for example) but that may have been because he chose rather medicore projects... and not because his creative power was in decline...

He peaked throughout his career with great scores (The Reivers, Hook, JP, HP, etc.)

That I agree with you.

But Jaws, CE3K, SW, Superman, ESB, Raiders and E.T. are seven truly classic, perfect scores that were written in a seven year period. For me; his biggest and most impactful creative peak.

Yes, exactly. For you. ;)

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I for one acknowledge that artists in general experience a creative peak at one point during their careers. Williams definately has had his. But since (post E.T.) Williams has written many excellent scores and somehow always knows how to differentiate himself from other composers working in the industry. Scores like Sleepers, Angela's Ashes or Tintin are 100% Williams scores (yet very diverse) and I find much enjoyment in basically all his output, even if he leans on gimicks at times. Being a 'fan' is not a word to me; it's a principle.

I even welcome the dramatic scores much more than the new TINTIN's, as those never reach the heights of ESB or TOD, anyway. I'd say the last time i really felt a JW spine-tingler was when i listened to Filmtracks' audio clip of the LEAVING INGRID cue from SEVEN YEARS IN TIBET, because the doomed romance of the melody let loose at this time had no equivalent in his oeuvre (funny enough, it's a french-sounding theme for an austrian in the Himalaya). So i wouldn't say i belong into either 'creative peak' category. What i do belong to is the school of well-tempered critical distance to an object of affection, pretentious as this may sound. And this somehow never sits too well when the big new release jubilee choruses are intoned (so close to x-mas, too!). ;)

The only objective reasoning is that the period from 1975 to 1984 was his comercial peak. But hardly his artistic peak, IMHO

You and your ART! :biglaugh:

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Because this is not the Josh500-Board but the JW DISCUSSION forum. People have different opinions on the subject so stop being whiny all the time because others do not join your 'i like everything like it is' chorus.

This is the JW DISCUSSION forum, where 68% of the members don't like anything JW wrote for the last

two decades. 27 % don't like anything he ever wrote. Oh, maybe Star Wars.

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I'd say the last time i really felt a JW spine-tingler was when i listened to Filmtracks' audio clip of the LEAVING INGRID cue from SEVEN YEARS IN TIBET, because the doomed romance of the melody let loose at this time had no equivalent in his oeuvre (funny enough, it's a french-sounding theme for an austrian in the Himalaya).

That was 1997 then... I'm glad I felt a 'JW spine-tingler' from his following scores many times afterwards as well... ;)

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Publicist makes a very good point about the JW as of late, and I think this idea was alluded to above that as Jerry Goldsmiths scores became even more stratified and streamlined as he aged - Williams have become perhaps overly complicated which is not necessarily beneficial for the listener.

I think it's greatly overstating the case to say that Williams' scores have become "perhaps overly complicated." War Horse has its intricacies, as all Williams scores do, but his general compositional approach to scoring the emotional and pastoral aspects of the film (and even some of the action) was to write as accessibly and directly as possible.

And, by the way, if Williams ever writes anything as dazzlingly complex as "Battle in the Snow" again, I would be delighted. "The Chase Through Coruscant" definitely has its moments, but it has a tendency to ramble and get bogged down in oh-too-familiar mannerisms.

I'd say the last time i really felt a JW spine-tingler was when i listened to Filmtracks' audio clip of the LEAVING INGRID cue from SEVEN YEARS IN TIBET, because the doomed romance of the melody let loose at this time had no equivalent in his oeuvre (funny enough, it's a french-sounding theme for an austrian in the Himalaya).

That was 1997 then... I'm glad I felt a 'JW spine-tingler' from his following scores many times afterwards as well... ;)

1997 was a really interesting year to be Williams fan, regardless of how successful you felt Williams was in the end.

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This is the JW DISCUSSION forum, where 68% of the members don't like anything JW wrote for the last

two decades. 27 % don't like anything he ever wrote. Oh, maybe Star Wars.

Go crying, then.

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4 completely different scores and all of them showed a new side of Williams. As you said, it was truly one of his most interesting years

The only objective reasoning is that the period from 1975 to 1984 was his comercial peak. But hardly his artistic peak, IMHO

You and your ART! :biglaugh:

I'm gonna stop using the word because I'm not sure anymore what it means :)

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Why would I cry?. Just find all of this funny.

But I am going to join the FC Barcelona fanclub and tell them how the team sucks

In the 80's they played better.

At least there will be a lively discussion following. :bash:

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Why would I cry?. Just find all of this funny.

But I am going to join the FC Barcelona fanclub and tell them how the team sucks

In the 80's they played better.

At least there will be a lively discussion following. :bash:

I would also be a bit pathetic really,,,,

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I'd say the last time i really felt a JW spine-tingler was when i listened to Filmtracks' audio clip

Not something you read everyday. :P

They had the TIBET and THE EDGE on the same day and i was happy as a clam.

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"That's 100% personal opinion. And I disagree with you 90%. "The Terminal" is easy listening for you, and you don't like xylophone and woodwinds. OK, gotcha."

Sure is! But seriously, don't we all agree that the xylophone doubling woodwinds in syncopated "off the beat" (if your a musician you'll know what I mean ;-) ) padding is overused - and I mean the upper woodwind doubling not the style in Star Wars where he doubles trumpets and xylophone. Goldsmith was one of the composers who mastered the skill of "less is more" orchestration - by this I mean not having too many counterpoint lines. The adventure films of the 1980's weren't as complex as what JW writes now.

I think it's greatly overstating the case to say that Williams' scores have become "perhaps overly complicated."

I agree war horse is not overly complex but the new Indiana Jones definitely has more notes in it than any of the others. Same with Parts of Minority Report and Tintin ( I'll excuse Tintin though because it's a cartoon and mickey mouse music is ok).

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Roald, with respect, that's not the division among JW fans.

We disagree on when JW's creative peak actually was . . . or is. ;)

On JW's lowest peak you can spit from 3000 feet above on John Powell's highest summit.

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We should really start a petition to rename Mount Everest as John Williams' Creative Peak.

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Interesting conversation (oddly named "I Was Wrong"). :lol:

"That's 100% personal opinion. And I disagree with you 90%. "The Terminal" is easy listening for you, and you don't like xylophone and woodwinds. OK, gotcha."

Sure is! But seriously, don't we all agree that the xylophone doubling woodwinds in syncopated "off the beat" (if your a musician you'll know what I mean ;-) ) padding is overused - and I mean the upper woodwind doubling not the style in Star Wars where he doubles trumpets and xylophone. Goldsmith was one of the composers who mastered the skill of "less is more" orchestration - by this I mean not having too many counterpoint lines. The adventure films of the 1980's weren't as complex as what JW writes now.

I think it's greatly overstating the case to say that Williams' scores have become "perhaps overly complicated."

I agree war horse is not overly complex but the new Indiana Jones definitely has more notes in it than any of the others. Same with Parts of Minority Report and Tintin ( I'll excuse Tintin though because it's a cartoon and mickey mouse music is ok).

You know what? JW's scores are what they are, and I loved them for what they are.

Some people think Tintin's main theme is too simple, and they complain. Some others think the entire score of Tintin has too many notes, and they complain. JW cannot make EVERY listener happy, and that's fine. To each his own.

But I for one think most JW scores are perfect or close to perfection. The music always fits the movie very well. And that's the main thing, surely. ;)

P.S. And I am not really sure why people keep harping on the xylophone, with so much going on in most pieces...

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But I for one think most JW scores are perfect or close to perfection. The music always fits the movie very well. And that's the main thing, surely.

Exactly - they are there to serve the film first and foremost.

At the risk of getting to deep here the point I was trying to make is that having a really complex score (as JW is one of the few film composers capable of writing) does not mean it's better than Zimmer or Desplat or whatever. If there is one vibe I get reading this thread/forum it is that people see through all the complexity or masses of notes/counterpoint if it is there as filler or is technically brilliant but doesn't have much, for lack of a better word "soul"; people do like a good theme to hang onto aswell. For example, Indy IV was technically great as were parts of catch me if you can but failed to resonate with many listeners.... why?? I believe its because 1. the film may not be good (lack of inspiration) or simply because it's John Williams doing John Williams and not ultimately serving the film as best as possible. That is the difference between Temple of doom/Raiders and say Indy 4.

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Exactly - they are there to serve the film first and foremost.

And you are saying that that's somehow wrong?

At the risk of getting to deep here the point I was trying to make is that having a really complex score (as JW is one of the few film composers capable of writing) does not mean it's better than Zimmer or Desplat or whatever. If there is one vibe I get reading this thread/forum it is that people see through all the complexity or masses of notes/counterpoint if it is there as filler or is technically brilliant but doesn't have much, for lack of a better word "soul"; people do like a good theme to hang onto aswell. For example, Indy IV was technically great as were parts of catch me if you can but failed to resonate with many listeners.... why?? I believe its because 1. the film may not be good (lack of inspiration) or simply because it's John Williams doing John Williams and not ultimately serving the film as best as possible. That is the difference between Temple of doom/Raiders and say Indy 4.

Complex orchestration has little to do with whether a piece of music (or an entire score) is good or not, of course. And no one said that. It's true JW writes very complex pieces, no question, but for me--and many others--these also speak to the heart. In other words, many JW pieces--whether complex or not--are very emotional as well, depending on the scene they accompany.

Indy 4 is just one example. Don't speak in general terms if you only bring up Indy 4 (admittedly one of his weaker works) and "parts of CMIYC" as examples! :)

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"Complex orchestration"

No, complex does not necessarily mean complex orchestration. When I say complex I mean many harmonic/melodic lines happening simultaneously. For example Everybody Runs from Minority Report is not complex - although it may sound so there are only 3 melodic ideas. Complex is like Whirl thu Acadame form IJ4.

Anyway, I could bring up many examples of where there are many many notes.......Some examples

Pre Crime to Rescue - Minority Report

Andertons Great Escape

and as you mentioned a lot of IJ 4 and Tintin

My 2cents is that the themes and ideas in these pieces is great but the melodic lines could me simplified or eliminated particularly over used of woodwind runs and jerky transistions, Goldsmith was better at transitions I believe.

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My 2cents is that the themes and ideas in these pieces is great but the melodic lines could me simplified or eliminated particularly over used of woodwind runs and jerky transistions, Goldsmith was better at transitions I believe.

Goldsmith, for all the faults of his later work, was the champion of getting the point across without much window dressing. The difference seems to be that one worked exclusively for movies of any genre (and quality!), the other one does them but has an arguably more important musical life outside L. A. I guess that JG knew exactly with whom he competed (Zimmer and cohorts), while Williams never saw anything like ARMAGEDDON and THE ROCK (Goldsmith even commented on ARMAGEDDON once).

Whatever point i'm trying to make, it seems that Williams finds cues like ACADEME logical - it's his musical idea of what an action cue sounds like since the late 90s and it springs from a musical mind more concerned with 'serious' music and its construction. I'd love to ask him if he thinks that stuff like the DESERT CHASE is inferior to his recent writing because of its musical straightforwardness.

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My 2cents is that the themes and ideas in these pieces is great but the melodic lines could me simplified or eliminated particularly over used of woodwind runs and jerky transistions, Goldsmith was better at transitions I believe.

We just have differing tastes, is all.

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I doubt it. It was one of Spielberg's selections in the recent TCM Masterclass thingy and I got the impression John had no issues with it at all. If anything he looked pleased.

Well, that would be my guess, so maybe it's really the different approach to moviemaking/cutting he reacts to.

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Josh he said, "I believe" at the end of his sentence you touchy tithead!

For gods sake just give it a rest for once.

Yes, he did. I overlooked that! And I changed my response accordingly

God, I am wasted this morning... :lol:

And yeah, like you aren't a touchy arse when you kept going on and on about xxx back when we were trying to enjoy the music! (You know what I mean.)

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Josh he said, "I believe" at the end of his sentence you touchy tithead!

For gods sake just give it a rest for once.

Yes, he did. I overlooked that! And I changed my response accordingly

God, I am wasted this morning... :lol:

And yeah, like you aren't a touchy arse when you kept going on and on about xxx back when we were trying to enjoy the music! (You know what I mean.)

What's porn got to do with anything?

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I agree about the Goldsmith being influenced/competing with Zimmer, you can here all the horn blasts in Mummy and his late 1990's stuff which has to have been influenced by him.

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I agree about the Goldsmith being influenced/competing with Zimmer, you can here all the horn blasts in Mummy and his late 1990's stuff which has to have been influenced by him.

There isn't anything in those scores that he was not already doing in the 80's, when Zimmer was doing Video Killed The Radio Star.

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I agree about the Goldsmith being influenced/competing with Zimmer, you can here all the horn blasts in Mummy and his late 1990's stuff which has to have been influenced by him.

There isn't anything in those scores that he was not already doing in the 80's, when Zimmer was doing Video Killed The Radio Star.

So 1990's Goldsmith is same as 1980's Goldsmith? Hmmm..... don't think so...... :shakehead: . Zimmer took those horn blasts to a whole new level.

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So 1990's Goldsmith is same as 1980's Goldsmith? Hmmm..... don't think so...... :shakehead: . Zimmer took those horn blasts to a whole new level.

The theme from 13th WARRIOR is based on the CRIMON TIDE temp track and it shows. MULAN has this one infamous tracks where he had to copy a Zimmer temp directly, too. Of course there was some bleeding-over, Goldsmith always listened to temps and current trends, while Williams tries to ignore them (i guess only Lucas forced him GLADIATOR etc. down the throat).

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So 1990's Goldsmith is same as 1980's Goldsmith? Hmmm..... don't think so...... :shakehead: . Zimmer took those horn blasts to a whole new level.

The theme from 13th WARRIOR is based on the CRIMON TIDE temp track and it shows. MULAN has this one infamous tracks where he had to copy a Zimmer temp directly, too. Of course there was some bleeding-over, Goldsmith always listened to temps and current trends, while Williams tries to ignore them (i guess only Lucas forced him GLADIATOR etc. down the throat).

The closest JW has come to being contemporary would have been that sappy pop song in A.I.. The only contemporary music JW appears to have incorporated into his "2000's onwards" style has been John Adams and some of the other minimalist composers.

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So 1990's Goldsmith is same as 1980's Goldsmith? Hmmm..... don't think so...... :shakehead: . Zimmer took those horn blasts to a whole new level.

90's Goldsmith is more streamlined. but the essence fhow he wrote and build up his themes hardly changed. And big low brass themes is something Goldsmith did long before Zimmer. (The Final Conflict anyone)

Also it's a mistake to think Zimmer invented the epic power theme!

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So 1990's Goldsmith is same as 1980's Goldsmith? Hmmm..... don't think so...... :shakehead: . Zimmer took those horn blasts to a whole new level.

90's Goldsmith is more streamlined. but the essence fhow he wrote and build up his themes hardly changed. And big low brass themes is something Goldsmith did long before Zimmer. (The Final Conflict anyone)

Also it's a mistake to think Zimmer invented the epic power theme!

Yes, Stefan, but 13TH WARRIOR is the theme from CRIMSON TIDE á la Goldsmith. Of course it's pure Goldsmith in it tone and construction, but he adapted it. FSM once reported it was the temp and how JG was told to follow this route while Revell under MacTiernans direction was under no such obligation. Goldsmith was no stranger to this to-the-point writing, so he sure saw it not as big challenge.

As for Williams, mostly you can find such influnces in the more anonymous underscore (ROTS, MINORITY REPORT, MUNICH). I don't know if the moaning african vocals from AMISTAD were influenced by original sources, it's the earliest trace of world music i can remember in Williams' canon.

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Publicist, for me the theme To Crimson Tide is little more then The Force Theme in power anthem mode.

As for Goldsmith sticking to current trends. I agree. That's why he did a-tonal, serial scores in the 60's, and avand garde stuff in the 70's.

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I noticed it the first time I heard it, and it bugs the hell out of me.

that's why I prefer The Rock.

I have parts of both on my iPod, but somehow the whole fat, overequalized synth sound seems dated and fucks it up for me. Just now listening to it and realizing that i remembered the theme from THE PEACEMAKER. Which is the same, but better.

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  • 1 month later...

Sorry to revive an older thread in this subforum, but I just wanted to say that having finally both seen and heard War Horse, I feel 100% the same way you described feeling in your OP, Blumenkohl. This score completely abandons the increasingly stale stylistic choices Williams was making in the 2000s. It was so clearly written by the maestro, yet it's so...fresh. The fact that I love it so much is telling, because I'd been looking forward to this score for years, and I don't have an overabundance of love for the film to bolster my opinion of its score. This is just quality film scoring. Quality music. I also have high hopes for Tintin, which I'm hoping to go see tomorrow, after which I will finally allow myself to listen to the OST.

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