"Return of the Jedi" sound quality

[EdwardHall 30]

I am sure this has been discussed before, but does anyone know which is the best sounding release of "Return of the Jedi?" I downloaded the 1997 version from iTunes about ten years ago and it sounds awful. The same 1997 version sounds slightly less awful on Google Play. I wonder why the music from Jedi sounds so much worse than the "Star Wars" and "The Empire Strikes Back" 1997 versions.

[Datameister 2,037]

That 1997 RCA release is the only place you're going to find some of the music, unfortunately. The sound quality on the Anthology box set is better, but it's not a complete release. And the OST is abbreviated, too, of course, though I don't actually know what the sound quality is like on the OST.

[Balahkay 627]

I am sure this has been discussed before, but does anyone know which is the best sounding release of "Return of the Jedi?" I downloaded the 1997 version from iTunes about ten years ago and it sounds awful. The same 1997 version sounds slightly less awful on Google Play. I wonder why the music from Jedi sounds so much worse than the "Star Wars" and "The Empire Strikes Back" 1997 versions.

From what I've read, 3rd or 4th generation masters is all they had at the time when they did the ROTJ SE soundtrack, hence the poor quality. Supposedly, higher quality masters have been discovered since then, but I haven't read anything official. The quality of tracks featured in "Star Wars: A Musical Journey," are much better quality than the SE and Anthology set.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Why not buy it on CD?

[SF1_freeze 131]

The best sound quality you can get is the original RotJ OST LP (also released on CD). Sadly it only contains the absolute barebones and misses more than half of the full score.

So we have to stay with the decent sounding anthology for most of the unreleased cues and for a few we have to use the shitty sounding SE.

Even if better sounding masters exist i fear they won't sound as well as the OST LP/CD...

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Unfortunately most of my favourite cues are all on the SE.

[Incanus 5,713]

Sony could have put their cashing-in act together for this year and re-released both the original trilogy and prequels in super-duper-hyper definitive sets with improved sound quality.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Sony has never done that. Why should they have done so now?

[crocodile 7,984]

Well, I'm sort of bored of the previous covers already...

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I want collectible magnets!

[crocodile 7,984]

It's been a while since we got any new screensavers, too.

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 7,984]

And dubstep remix of Cantina Band.

Anyway, to answer EdwardHall's question, Anthology would be your best choice. And that goes both for Jedi and Empire.

Karol

[Giftheck 916]

Sony has never done that. Why should they have done so now?

Sony's content with the status quo of re-releasing the OSTs again and again, and previously it's been Lucasfilm that's been resistant. Given Disney is in charge now... well, I'm not saying it will happen, but the likelyhood of it happening has gone up at least. Disney aren't as resistant to the idea given they commissioned the Legacy Collection for certain notable scores.

[Incanus 5,713]

Anyway, to answer EdwardHall's question, Anthology would be your best choice. And that goes both for Jedi and Empire.

Karol

Yeap. The Anthology has the best sound for those two.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Didn't the makers of the ROTJ radio drama supposedly lose the masters that were lent to them?

[Faleel 5,339]

No the rumors were that it was the makers of From Star Wars to Jedi.

[Balahkay 627]

Has that been confirmed or just rumor?

[Faleel 5,339]

Has that been confirmed or just rumor?

I think in an article for FSM, Michael Mattesino said that (some of?) the masters were already lost before the Radio Drama.

[Balahkay 627]

I'd love to read that article.

[Faleel 5,339]

It's available for free in their print archive I think.

[Balahkay 627]

What sources were used for the Anthology set?

[Incanus 5,713]

What sources were used for the Anthology set?

You can find that out and more in this analysis by Chris Malone.

[Balahkay 627]

Thanks!

[Balahkay 627]

The analysis says, "Soon after the box hit shelves, rumour circulated of a fifth disc intended to augment the set and offer more previously unissued music... Originally slated for a December 1995 release, the fifth disc was eventually cancelled despite a CD master having been prepared by Ford A. Thaxton at around the time the box set was completed."

I believe someone posted the track listing at FSM, which included most (if not all) the supposed lost ROTJ cues. I may be beating a dead horse, but since a CD master was created that included these lost cues (and Lucas Kendall said he has a copy on cassette and proof of the recording log), doesn't this prove that the music isn't lost or destroyed (assuming the track listing was accurate)? Am I missing something here?

[Jay 37,287]

Yes, you're missing something.

There was nothing on that fifth disc that didn't end up on the 1997 sets.

The sail barge source music and Lapti Nek Film Version are still missing

I don't think the final track list of that disc ever got out, but I have this in my archives:

From: Mercerton on America Online

===================================

Lukas Kendall wrote in the Jan/Feb/Mar issue of Film Score Monthly

(among a wealth of other SW music background):

"And finally, the 'fifth disc,' an object I made the mistake of

mentioning a few months ago. At this point, while a sequencing for

a fifth disc was made (featuring another 70 minutes of music), there

are no immediate plans to release it. It's not dead, just kind of

in limbo. Because I wasn't supposed to announce it, it would not

be a good idea to write Fox demanding the "fifth disc." To them

nobody knows about it, and therefore nobody would care if they ever

did it. Rather, write that you would be interested in 'any

additional Star Wars outtakes and unreleased music' like the fourth

disc in the set. Address is: Fox Records, c/o Fox Music Group, PO

Box 900, Beverly Hills, CA 90213. Be nice, be brief and try not to

sound like you're crazy; perhaps disc five may yet happen."

So there you have it. If you're interested, here's the missing

music that could be on a fifth disc according to Film Score Monthly:

From Star Wars:

- Main Title (first recorded take) 2:16

- More Little People (after droids purchased) :22

- The Force/The Princess Reappears/Ben and Luke 2:00

- Out of the Floor (group infiltrates Death Star) 1:45

From The Empire Strikes Back:

- The Imperial Probe (film version pt. 1) 1:00

- Ben's Instruction (complete) 3:30

- The Probe Scanner 3:00

- Yoda Appears ("You feel like what?") 1:15

- Vader's Command (Imperial Fleet breaks up) 1:10

- Luke to the Rescue (taking off from Dagobah) :55

- Vader Shows Up (group meets Vader at dinner) 1:30

- Putting Threepio Together 1:00

- Trouble in Prison (Lando visits prison cell) 2:20

- Carbon Freeze (alternate) :40

- Finale (alternate) 2:00

From Return of the Jedi:

- Vader Contacts Luke (not in film)/The Iron Door 2:20

- Jabba Harp Source 3:00

- Unused Source Music (not in film) 1:30

- My Favorite Decoration 1:00

- Lapti Nek (film version)

- Fancy Man (Lapti Nek English Version)

- Jabba's Prisoners (Boushh barters over Chewie) 2:20

- Jabba's Sail Barge Source

- Han Solo Returns (film version) 4:00

- A Strange Visitor (Luke arrives) 2:30

- The Sentence (Jabba says: Die by Sarlaac) 2:00

- The Sarlaac Pit :45

- Ben and Luke on a Log/The Rebel Fleet 2:50

- Battle Plans (the real "Rebel Briefing) 2:00

- Jungle Encounter (before Speeder Bikes) 1:20

- After the Bike Chase :50

- Enter the Ewok (Leia meets Wickett) 2:00

- More Trouble/More Ewoks Emerge 4:30

- Ewok Drums (group carried to Ewok Village) 2:25

- Using the Force (Luke levitates Threepio) 1:15

- Bedtime Stories (Threepio tells saga to Ewoks) 1:10

- Ewok Drums 2 (group joins tribe) 2:05

- Father Meets Son (Endor landing platform) 3:30

- Finding an Entrance (group at bunker) :50

- Rebel Forces Captured 2:00

- The Emperor Provokes Luke 1:00

- The Battle Rages (space/bunker fight) 1:00

- Space Battle (Rebels enter Death Star, etc.) 2:00

So, as you can see, most of the fifth disc would contain unused

music from "Jedi." The full article in FSM contains everything

you could ever want to know about Star Wars music. If you really

love film scores, FSM is the mag for you (I don't work for them,

honest! Unfortunately, I haven't even had the time to subscribe)

For Film Score Monthly info, contact:

Film Score Monthly

Box 1554

Amherst College

Amherst, MA 01002-5000

Phone/Fax: (413)542-3353

[Balahkay 627]

I found this list of "leftover" music from Kendall, which varies slightly from the list above:

Vader Contacts Luke/The Iron Door - Only tail end of this heard in movie as
droids approach Jabba's. Most of it is for a scene cut from movie
with Vader telepathically contacting Luke on Tatooine--creepy atonal
stuff followed by longer version of music heard in movie as droids
walk to Jabba's.
Jabba's Harp (source music) - That delicate mozart thing heard when we first
we Jabba. Around 4 min.
My Favorite Decoration - 1 min. - Jabba gestures at frozen Han on wall, droids
led to go see EV-9D9.
Jabba's Source (unused) - 90 sec. - really lame source music not in movie.
Sounds like mall elevator music.
Lapti Nek - film version - Tapes for this have yet to be located and probably
will not be located.
Chewie in Chains - 2-3 min. - Really boring music for scene when Chewie is
brought in by Boushh (i.e. Leia); Jabba's theme heard as deal is made.
Fancy Man - Cool source cue, instrumental played by Jabba's band. A mix-down
of this music has yet to be made and may not be made.
Han Solo Returns - film version - has different ending than version on album,
nothing significant.
A Strange Visitor - 2-3 min. - Right before "Fight in the Dungeon," Luke
enters palace and talks to Jabba.
The Sentence - Really boring music after "Fight in the Dungeon" when Jabba
decrees that Luke, Han and Chewie will eat it by Sarlaac.
The Sarlaac Pit - Really short and boring Jabba music as barge & skiffs pull
up at sarlaac pit. Most of it not in movie, and I can see why.
Ben and Luke on a Log/The Rebel Fleet - Most of this is boring atonal music
for scene when Ben and Luke talk, not used in movie. Then we hear
Leia's theme (where music starts in movie) and cool transition to
rebel fleet.
Battle Plans - The real Rebel Briefing.
Jungle Encounter - Cool action music right before speeder bike chase, really
short, though.
After the Bike Chase - Short and insignificant, can't even remember where it
goes.
Leia and Wicket - 2 min. - When Leia and Wicket meet--Ewok music, aaah!!!
More Trouble/Ewoks Emerge - 4 min. - Vader and Emperor talk on Death Star,
Rebels captured by Ewoks on Endor.
Ewok source #1 - Ewok drum music heard as Rebels are brought to village and
prepared for dinner.
Using the Force - 1 min. - Really short and boring cue heard as Luke levitates
Threepio.
Bedtime Stories - 90 sec. - Really cool cue heard as Threepio tells Star Wars
saga to Ewoks--various themes heard on primitive sounding instruments.
Ewok source #2 - More Ewok drums, heard when Rebels are made "part of the
tribe."
Father Meets Son - 3 1/2 min. - Dark cue heard as Luke and Vader talk on
Endor base walkway.
Rebel Forces Captures - 2 min. - Emperor talks to Luke, then cut to Endor
where Rebels are captured, right before "First Ewok Battle."
The Emperor Provokes Luke - 1 min. - Luke grabs his sword, tries to hit Empy.
The Battle Rages - 1 min. - Music heard right after "Luke and Vader Duel,"
when Han and company trick Imperials and capture them by back door of
shield generator.
Space Battle - Re-hash of Star Wars action music as Lando and co. invade
Death Star and Super Star Destroyer is blown up.

He says the film version of Lapti Nek wasn't found and labels Fancy Man as source music, instead of the English version of Lapti Nek. Based on his list, the only piece he specifically says is missing (as of 1993) is the film version of Lapti Nek. I don't see any mention of the Endor Insert and possibly other unreleased cues not on the list.

[Jay 37,287]

I am certain that SOME DAY we will get new 2CD sets of each of the original six Star Wars scores, just no idea when.

It's a HUGE legal issue right now.

You would need the cooperation of Twentieth Century Fox, Sony, and Lucasfilm/Disney to all get on the same page to make releases happen.

Sony's rights to the music end in 2019, and releases might not happen until after that, when there are only 2 entities to deal with instead of 3.

It's a damn shame its so complicated, because right now is the PERFECT time to release new sets of the old scores. Oh well.

Luckily, Disney has their own record label, so the new scores coming out will be very easy to manage for all time.

[Balahkay 627]

I find is amusing that a set from 1993 is still considered the definitive release of the OT scores (in terms of content and sound quality), even in 2015. The set is no doubt amazing, even though a good portion of music is missing. However, it can still be improved upon 20+ years after the fact. I think the Star Wars 97 SE sounds almost perfect and I'm not sure if improvement can be done, but I wouldn't be surprised. As we know, ESB and ROTJ are still in need for proper releases. One of these days...

The timing is right to release UOT on Blu-ray, too. Unfortunately, that's a complicated issue as well.

[Jay 37,287]

Yea, Fox owning certain aspects of the original 6 films and their scores makes things more complicated, unfortunately.

I know Mike Matessino would jump at the chance to create definitive versions of these six scores, its a shame legal shit has to get in the way of something that would make so many people happy

[Sandor 796]

Has that been confirmed or just rumor?

Well, it makes sense since the Max Rebo source music seems lost forever (never released), but makes several appearances during the run of From Star Wars To Jedi.

[Balahkay 627]

Has that been confirmed or just rumor?

Well, it makes sense since the Max Rebo source music seems lost forever (never released), but makes several appearances during the run of From Star Wars To Jedi.

Possibly, but there are a few discrepancies that say otherwise, such as a portion of the music appearing on the Star Wars soundboards. So, it exists in some form, even if it's film stems.

[Jay 37,287]

Well obviously the film stems exist. That was never in question.

[Balahkay 627]

Therefore, it isn't lost forever... except possibly the bits that weren't used in the film.

[Jay 37,287]

Well that's exactly the point.

No one was ever claiming that the bits you can hear in the film are lost forever.

The claim is that the full, untouched recordings are lost forever.

[Balahkay 627]

Yes, but I believe the soundboard piece contains music not heard in the film. I would have to compare to know for sure.

[Jilal 569]

It doesn't.

[Faleel 5,339]

It only includes music you can't get from the rear channels.

[DreamTheater 131]

I may come off as an ass, but I for one don't dislike Return of the Jedi as it appears on the RCA set. I honestly didn't suspect anything was wrong with the quality until I read somewhere on the net a couple of years ago how muffled the second disc sounds. For 10+ years I lived in complete ignorance. Even knowing the fact, it doesn't annoy me as much as it seems to do to everyone else.

I just enjoy the music.

I'm an ass... there I said it.

[Jay 37,287]

I for one don't dislike Return of the Jedi as it appears on the RCA set. I honestly didn't suspect anything was wrong with the quality until I read somewhere on the net a couple of years ago how muffled the second disc sounds. For 10+ years I lived in complete ignorance. Even knowing the fact, it doesn't annoy me as much as it seems to do to everyone else.

I just enjoy the music.

(Probably no surprise here but) I agree with you!

[Ricard 2,242]

For anyone who was used to the original album and the 1993 box set, the difference was pretty obvious.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It was.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Yea, Fox owning certain aspects of the original 6 films and their scores makes things more complicated, unfortunately.

I know Mike Matessino would jump at the chance to create definitive versions of these six scores, its a shame legal shit has to get in the way of something that would make so many people happy

The legal tangle concerns mostly the first film/score, aka Star Wars 1977--20th Century Fox has full copyright ownership and control for the film (and its soundtrack) in perpetuity. Lucasfilm instead has copyright ownership and control for all the other 5 films (Fox has just distribution rights for these, but that reverts back fully to Lucasfilm in 2020, if I remember right).

As for the soundtrack release rights, I seem to remember Sony has exclusive rights until 2019, but of course Lucasfilm could buy them back any moment.

Lucasfilm also controls music publishing rights through Bantha Music/Tusken Music (subsidiaries of Warner-Tamerlane) for all six scores.

If Disney/Lucasfilm would like to re-release the six scores in any form, they of course can manage to do it any time. At the moment, it doesn't seem Fox is putting any obstacle into Lucasfilm's wheels when it comes to license rights of anything that involves the original 1977 film, but of course all this adds a layer or two of legal complexity when it comes to iron out details with any entity that claims money.

All six scores will surely be re-released sooner or later. Let's hope the restoration will be done in the best possible way.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I for one don't dislike Return of the Jedi as it appears on the RCA set. I honestly didn't suspect anything was wrong with the quality until I read somewhere on the net a couple of years ago how muffled the second disc sounds. For 10+ years I lived in complete ignorance. Even knowing the fact, it doesn't annoy me as much as it seems to do to everyone else.

I just enjoy the music.

(Probably no surprise here but) I agree with you!

One day I hope to be as deaf as you two!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I can listen to the 2 disc just fine, but comparing it to the original album or the Anthology, it's like night and day. We know that there are better sources out there because of the bonus DVD from the ROTS OST.

[Wojo 2,453]

I don't hear the difference or even care that there is one.

[Jay 37,287]

When the 1997 2CD sets came out in January and February of 1997 I was a 17 year old kid listening to CDs on a boom box in my room. I was just excited to have the complete scores in chronological order. Didn't notice any sound or mix differences between the various versions of the scores I had.

It wasn't until years later, as my sound equipment improved and the Internet became available to discuss my hobby that the differences got pointed out and noticed.

Now of course I can tell the difference.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,497]

Interesting point. The less sensitive one's hi fi is, the better "ROTJ" sounds. I could tell the difference between the 1993 box, and the 1997 release, immediately.

[DreamTheater 131]

I for one don't dislike Return of the Jedi as it appears on the RCA set. I honestly didn't suspect anything was wrong with the quality until I read somewhere on the net a couple of years ago how muffled the second disc sounds. For 10+ years I lived in complete ignorance. Even knowing the fact, it doesn't annoy me as much as it seems to do to everyone else.

I just enjoy the music.

(Probably no surprise here but) I agree with you!

One day I hope to be as deaf as you two!

Ehm... why do you say you two?

Jay and I are the same person with about 95% agreements on every possible topic. Never heard of split personalities?

I am one, he is one, possibly there is a third one out there, but he hasn't found jwfan yet. Only a matter of time.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You are the Belgian Jason LeBlanc?

Oh dear...