Howard Shore's The Battle of the Five Armies (Hobbit Part 3)

[Faleel 5,340]

Wait...Death motif?

https://twitter.com/DougAdamsMusic/status/590873507350716416

[Barnald 365]

What is this new devilry?

[Jay 37,322]

Stumped me.

[Incanus 5,713]

What is this new heartbreaking Death motif?

Is it the the little theme that to my ears resembled Evil Times which is featured in Ravenhill and Courage and Wisdom? Or is there some other theme played over the death of characters in the movies?

[Faleel 5,340]

What is this new heartbreaking Death motif?

Is it the the little theme that to my ears resembled Evil Times which is featured in Ravenhill and Courage and Wisdom?

At 0:08 of Ravenhill?

[crocodile 7,989]

What is this new heartbreaking Death motif?

For a second I thought it read "heartbreaking Death Star motif".

A fitting elegy for all the souls Luke Skywalker murdered in cold blood on that fateful day.

Karol

[Incanus 5,713]

What is this new heartbreaking Death motif?

Is it the the little theme that to my ears resembled Evil Times which is featured in Ravenhill and Courage and Wisdom?

At 0:08 of Ravenhill?

Yup.

[Faleel 5,340]

That always reminded me of that Sauron Revealed theme actually.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

That's heartbreaking?

Indeed. I can't help but wonder if Doug's heard more of this motif than we have.

[Incanus 5,713]

I think I would describe it chilling. In Courage and Wisdom Shore transforms it into an elegy for Thorin where it is heartbreaking.

Or I might barking at the wrong tree here and he means some other theme entirely.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,322]

Doug's probably talking about Thorin's funeral music and forgot it wasn't on the OST

[Barnald 365]

Which part of Courage and Wisdom? A lot of sad stuff in the first half.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

Yes the opening of Courage and Wisdom where the theme heard in Ravenhill transforms slowly into the elegy, reminding me also bit of the death music of Theoden, especially in the serene parts. It also feels very similar to the setting of Evil Times heard in Sons of the Steward from TTT, the unused portion when Faramir sees Boromir's boat on Anduin. Infact you can hear the exact motif at 1:20 of the aforementioned track.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,340]

Could it be the choral material heard at the beginning of The Fallen or in To The Death when Thorin sees Azog under the ice (both sound slightly similar to me)?

I wouldn't call that heartbreaking either, forboding/sickening would be more like it

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Barnald 365]

Yes, I think all the choral material in that track is fantastic, and makes for one of the strongest parts of the film. While Legolas and Tauriel test my liking for Elves, it gets me quite emotional seeing the Elves butchered like that (perhaps they're dying too easily, but in Jackson's defence he has to show a vulnerability and the battle going badly for the good guys). And you already know my fondness for Dain and his boys.

[KK 3,307]

Usually those kind of PJ moments/montages really get me. But strange enough, I felt nothing during that montage in BotFA. In fact, it felt kind of forced, with slow-mo sequences of characters you don't really care much for with your typical sad music (albeit wonderful) in the background. It felt strangely phoney and formulaic.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

Usually those kind of PJ moments/montages really get me. But strange enough, I felt nothing during that montage in BotFA. In fact, it felt kind of forced, with slow-mo sequences of characters you don't really care much for with your typical sad music (albeit wonderful) in the background. It felt strangely phoney and formulaic.

Indeed.

[Faleel 5,340]

The slow-mo looks weird as well, too smooth. (probably an efect of filming digitally and HFR)

[Barnald 365]

Bah. You lot would say that. I'll grant you no one cared about a bunch of no-mark Laketowners. But what about Bard and Thranduil, and their poor mounts!

I do see what you mean Faleel - the slow-mo in the bit with Bard and the Laketowners does look a bit odd. It looks almost too real by my eyes, which is a very strange thing to say I know given that most of this film is CGI, and that's one of the few shots where there are actual people on a set.

[Faleel 5,340]

Another thing that bothered me about this trilogy (or more specifically the last two films) is the awkward obvious slo-mo voices ("Saauuron!", Tauriel's Incantation etc.)

[Barnald 365]

I didn't have a problem with 'To the King', but the others yeah

[MedigoScan 324]

Galadriel was the only one's I find giggle-worthy

That said, I did care that Laketowners were getting slaughtered

if only because those people have the worst of luck

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,713]

Disagreed.

And how dare you with the 'typical sad music'! That was one of the most beautiful cues from the trilogy. I'm in awe of it when I watch that scene.

Of course emotional things feel forced when you're not invested in a film!

And whose fault is that a viewer is not invested in the film? Is there a tiny teeny bit of fault in the movie as well if an audience member doesn't genuinely feel the emotion but it rings hollow? It is not just overly critical talk of someone who has decided they are not going to like the film in advance but a person that the film lost for one reason or another.

KK did not criticize the music per se but rather how PJ seems to have devised the scene in a very same way as other similar scenes from LotR (Helm's Deep in particular) where the good guys are routed and running and the tide has turned against them and the approach is almost exactly the same. In a way it is a good thing as it creates stylistic continuity but in this particular case it feels a bit tired. KK used the word formulaic is pretty spot on.

I have to love your unwavering enthusiasm for every millisecond and every move of this film trilogy though. Such fanatism deserves credit.

For the credit I do love the music for the scene while I find the sequence somewhat "formulaic".

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[MedigoScan 324]

Opinions are Opinions. People arent wrong for liking or disliking a movie

Also Thanks for reminding me of Haldir's cheesy-overlydramatic death scene

I'd say the BOTFA scene was par for the course/demanded at PJ's rate

[Incanus 5,713]

Opinions are Opinions. People arent wrong for liking or disliking a movie

Also Thanks for reminding me of Haldir's cheesy-overlydramatic death scene

I'd say the BOTFA scene was par for the course/demanded at PJ's rate

I still frown upon Haldir's appearance at the Helm's Deep btw. PJ is such a heathen!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,713]

Opinions are Opinions. People arent wrong for liking or disliking a movie

Also Thanks for reminding me of Haldir's cheesy-overlydramatic death scene

I'd say the BOTFA scene was par for the course/demanded at PJ's rate

Haven't you seen the rest of the middle earth films? Over the top is PJ's best friend.

That friendship grew particularly warm during RotK and was sizzlingly hot at the time of the Hobbit films.

Btw this reminds me, PJ ruined for me the RotK Mt. Doom sequence when Gollum gets the Ring. His commentary on the RotK EE was so outrageous when he began telling how the scene has heavy CG because they could not have pulled the shot of the camera sliding through the Ring and above Gollum. Then he mused that perhaps there were these small cameras used for colonoscopy that might have fitted through a physical ring for being so small and every time I see the scene all I can think of is the friggin' miniature camera used for colon inspections. DAMN YOU PJ!!!!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,340]

Another thing that bothered me about this trilogy (or more specifically the last two films) is the awkward obvious slo-mo voices ("Saauuron!", Tauriel's Incantation, "To the King!" etc.)

The dragon sickness scene is hilarious in that regard.

"Daaaaaaaaaain is suuuurrrrrrrounded"

Drunk Dwalin....

You should totally do a video.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[MedigoScan 324]

LOTR loved fake deaths as much as the whole series loved near-death rescues

(sorry Kili, you didnt get one)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,340]

(plus I have other projects in the pipelines)!

Robin Hood?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

Where the fuck is Sons of Durin by the way? I think we've been patient enough!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Opinions are Opinions. People arent wrong for liking or disliking a movie

Also Thanks for reminding me of Haldir's cheesy-overlydramatic death scene

I'd say the BOTFA scene was par for the course/demanded at PJ's rate

And yet, I found the Haldir scene rather effective in context. Probably because the films developed a good sense of camaraderie between these two races, and so at that point of the film, you can buy into the idea of sympathizing with this character. The entire Helm's Deep sequence was just beautifully choreographed. There is a strong emotional and narrative arc to it which allows it to effectively suspend your disbelief.

On the other hand, the battle goes by so quickly in BotFA, and it's such an assault on your senses that when that slow-mo montage comes over it seems like the film is screaming "LOOK! We take a brief break to bring you 2 minutes of intense character development! Look how sad it is! Feel sorry for these characters! Done? Cool, let's get back to the fighting!". It was all too familiar. Much like many parts of this trilogy, it's like PJ is just pulling from his bag of tricks that worked in LOTR because...well...they worked in LOTR. The difference is, those created cinematic moments that are somewhat instilled in film culture, or at least among the fans. But you discredit and disvalue those moments by just pulling the same stunts again.

And it just doesn't fit in with the context. Turning the scenes into slow-motion and pasting on elegiac music isn't enough to qualify as character development, but that's probably what PJ had in mind when he kept boasting about how (paraphrasing here) "the characters grounded the battle" in all those interviews. Maybe the EE will fix that, because so many chunks of the battle is cut out, but I'm not too confident about it.

Also, as Incanus pointed out, I'm not criticizing the music at all, I love that cue. But I'm criticizing the context in which it was used in, where it felt regrettably manipulative. On top of which, while I've done more than my fair share of criticism of these films, you'd be hard-pressed to say I haven't been invested in them. The fact that I've spent so many pages discussing these characters and plots, and not always in a negative light (as much as it might look like it) speaks for how much I have invested into these films, whether I like them or not. And yet that scene just felt cold, and even a bit offensive (by which I mean I felt I was being emotionally manipulated...I apologize if using such a strong word offended you!). That's my honest reaction, from a big fan of these books, stories and the Middle-Earth film franchise. So you might imagine how dismissive a casual film-goer might be.

Anyways, hope that cleared some things up!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,340]

Couldn't have put it better, KK! Almost brought tears to my eyes!

The it's manipulative crap then

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Elegant prose and essay posts are JWFan's version of slow-motion!

Of course, no one does it better than Inky!

[BloodBoal 7,538]