indy4 155 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Both ostinati primarily function to propel the main themes forward. But they are also much more prominent that JW's other march ostinati (excepting perhaps 1941). They are almost as recognizable as the primary themes of each score, and play an important role in defining each character. But which is better?Consider some of the adrenaline pumping moments that heavily feature these ostinati:3:44 of "End Credits" from Raiders4:58 of "Desert Chase" from Raiders1:13 of "Prelude and Main Title March" from Superman I ended up voting for Raiders, but it was a very tough decision. Could've gone either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,232 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Raiders. It belongs in a museum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Raiders. It belongs in a museum.So do you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 7,930 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Superman. It works great in X-Men 3. Karol igger6 and fommes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Superman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 THERE IS NO COMPARISON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,384 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I have really no opinion on that issue, but what I've always found fascinating is that there is a slight similarity between Don Davis' ostinato for the rooftop chase in THE MATRIX and the opening Superman ostinato. Which is kinda appropriate, since Trinity is just about to jump off the roof and "fly" to the next building. Maybe a coincidence, since that kind of cluster is common in Davis' MATRIX music, but in my mind it's a nice reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Definitely the Superman ostinato. I can feel the weight with the lower strings, woodwinds, and brass as the rest of the orchestra joins in with a harmonic unison of parts. It has a real heraldic lift to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightscape94 965 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 The Raiders ostinato doesn't really signal Indy in any way. It's just base line for the main theme. With the Superman rhythm, it's almost part of the theme, or used in a way that can be thematic apart from the fanfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I have really no opinion on that issue, but what I've always found fascinating is that there is a slight similarity between Don Davis' ostinato for the rooftop chase in THE MATRIX and the opening Superman ostinato. That's because the 12/8 rhythm of the 'Superman ostinato' is actually very common, especially in Williams's oeuvre. 'Take to Your Ships' from TPM anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Bernard Herrmann already did it in MYSTERIOUS ISLAND. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,800 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I remember hearing it in a symphony, but I can't remember the author. Or the symphony for that matter. Sostakovich maybe? I remember very distinctly it played on the snares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted June 23, 2014 Author Share Posted June 23, 2014 The supes ostinato is also in scherzo for motorcycle and orchestra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,235 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 The Raiders ostinato doesn't really signal Indy in any way. It's just base line for the main theme. With the Superman rhythm, it's almost part of the theme, or used in a way that can be thematic apart from the fanfare.This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,278 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 The Raiders ostinato doesn't really signal Indy in any way. It's just base line for the main theme. With the Superman rhythm, it's almost part of the theme, or used in a way that can be thematic apart from the fanfare.This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 7,930 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 That.Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uni 306 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 The score is tied again!Superman wins because it's a bit more flexible and shows more range. Where the Raiders ostinato is (as has already been pointed out) basically just an underline of the main theme, the one from Superman often plays as a buildup to an expression of one of the primary themes—and carries an palpable sense of anticipation when it does, making it just significant enough to be recognized as a motif in its own right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,235 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Superman wins because it's a bit more flexible and shows more range. Where the Raiders ostinato is (as has already been pointed out) basically just an underline of the main theme, the one from Superman often plays as a buildup to an expression of one of the primary themes—and carries an palpable sense of anticipation when it does, making it just significant enough to be recognized as a motif in its own right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,304 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Yup. The Superman ostinato wins for me, largely because it's treated and developed as an independent motif (as others have said), and its just more badass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted June 24, 2014 Author Share Posted June 24, 2014 What about the Raiders ostinato's development in the Desert Chase? In this instance it seems as independent, if not more, than the Superman ostinato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,278 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I don't remember the Raiders Ostinato. I remember the Superman Ostinato. Case closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uni 306 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 What about the Raiders ostinato's development in the Desert Chase? In this instance it seems as independent, if not more, than the Superman ostinatoEmphasizing first that this is a discussion about preference between two well-loved Williams effects (so people don't start with the whole "disagreement = hating on the other choice" thing again. . . !), I would respond by saying modulation and occasional increase in intensity does not a motif make. Whether the Raiders ostinato is played pianissimo or fortissimo, fast or slow, it never really seems to change in nature. You could argue that as one of its merits: the steady dependability of the hero, or whatever. But Superman's osti does portray different dramatic meanings—not an entire kaleidoscope, maybe, but a noticeably variable range—depending on the dynamics of the piece and context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Completely disagree. Compare the cheerful woodwind variation that takes us out of Marion's theme in the end credits to the aforementioned desert chase variation...I don't think supes ever gets that varied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,278 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 It does not have a flute variation, no, but I would daresay that each variation is atleast somewhat different from the last. for example the brass version in Luthor's Lethal Weapon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSM 120 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Bernard Herrmann already did it in MYSTERIOUS ISLAND.Btw that album has the origin of Voldemort's Theme.I voted Superman, because the ostinato motiv itself is so effective that it almost serves a s a leitmotiv on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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