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Raiders Ostinato vs Superman Ostinato


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Raiders Ostinato vs Superman Ostinato  

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  1. 1. Raiders Ostinato vs Superman Ostinato

    • Raiders Ostinato
    • Superman Ostinato


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Both ostinati primarily function to propel the main themes forward. But they are also much more prominent that JW's other march ostinati (excepting perhaps 1941). They are almost as recognizable as the primary themes of each score, and play an important role in defining each character. But which is better?

Consider some of the adrenaline pumping moments that heavily feature these ostinati:

3:44 of "End Credits" from Raiders

4:58 of "Desert Chase" from Raiders

1:13 of "Prelude and Main Title March" from Superman

I ended up voting for Raiders, but it was a very tough decision. Could've gone either way.

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I have really no opinion on that issue, but what I've always found fascinating is that there is a slight similarity between Don Davis' ostinato for the rooftop chase in THE MATRIX and the opening Superman ostinato. Which is kinda appropriate, since Trinity is just about to jump off the roof and "fly" to the next building. Maybe a coincidence, since that kind of cluster is common in Davis' MATRIX music, but in my mind it's a nice reference.

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Definitely the Superman ostinato. I can feel the weight with the lower strings, woodwinds, and brass as the rest of the orchestra joins in with a harmonic unison of parts. It has a real heraldic lift to it.

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The Raiders ostinato doesn't really signal Indy in any way. It's just base line for the main theme. With the Superman rhythm, it's almost part of the theme, or used in a way that can be thematic apart from the fanfare.

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I have really no opinion on that issue, but what I've always found fascinating is that there is a slight similarity between Don Davis' ostinato for the rooftop chase in THE MATRIX and the opening Superman ostinato.

That's because the 12/8 rhythm of the 'Superman ostinato' is actually very common, especially in Williams's oeuvre. 'Take to Your Ships' from TPM anyone?

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I remember hearing it in a symphony, but I can't remember the author. Or the symphony for that matter. Sostakovich maybe? I remember very distinctly it played on the snares.

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The Raiders ostinato doesn't really signal Indy in any way. It's just base line for the main theme. With the Superman rhythm, it's almost part of the theme, or used in a way that can be thematic apart from the fanfare.

This.

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The Raiders ostinato doesn't really signal Indy in any way. It's just base line for the main theme. With the Superman rhythm, it's almost part of the theme, or used in a way that can be thematic apart from the fanfare.

This.

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The score is tied again!

Superman wins because it's a bit more flexible and shows more range. Where the Raiders ostinato is (as has already been pointed out) basically just an underline of the main theme, the one from Superman often plays as a buildup to an expression of one of the primary themes—and carries an palpable sense of anticipation when it does, making it just significant enough to be recognized as a motif in its own right.

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Superman wins because it's a bit more flexible and shows more range. Where the Raiders ostinato is (as has already been pointed out) basically just an underline of the main theme, the one from Superman often plays as a buildup to an expression of one of the primary themes—and carries an palpable sense of anticipation when it does, making it just significant enough to be recognized as a motif in its own right.

(Y)

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Yup. The Superman ostinato wins for me, largely because it's treated and developed as an independent motif (as others have said), and its just more badass.

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What about the Raiders ostinato's development in the Desert Chase? In this instance it seems as independent, if not more, than the Superman ostinato

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What about the Raiders ostinato's development in the Desert Chase? In this instance it seems as independent, if not more, than the Superman ostinato

Emphasizing first that this is a discussion about preference between two well-loved Williams effects (so people don't start with the whole "disagreement = hating on the other choice" thing again. . . !), I would respond by saying modulation and occasional increase in intensity does not a motif make. Whether the Raiders ostinato is played pianissimo or fortissimo, fast or slow, it never really seems to change in nature. You could argue that as one of its merits: the steady dependability of the hero, or whatever. But Superman's osti does portray different dramatic meanings—not an entire kaleidoscope, maybe, but a noticeably variable range—depending on the dynamics of the piece and context.

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Completely disagree. Compare the cheerful woodwind variation that takes us out of Marion's theme in the end credits to the aforementioned desert chase variation...I don't think supes ever gets that varied

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It does not have a flute variation, no, but I would daresay that each variation is atleast somewhat different from the last. for example the brass version in Luthor's Lethal Weapon

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  • 3 weeks later...

Bernard Herrmann already did it in MYSTERIOUS ISLAND.

Btw that album has the origin of Voldemort's Theme.

I voted Superman, because the ostinato motiv itself is so effective that it almost serves a s a leitmotiv on its own.

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