The underscore of Star Wars

[Quintus 5,399]

I find it sounds and feels vastly different to ESB and RotJ. Why? What happened with JW between EpIV and EpV? We all know how great the action stuff is in Star Wars, but his scoring of moments like early on in the film with Luke at home with Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru, or when the Stormtroopers are searching for Luke and the droids in Mos Eisley and later with the Death Star scenes where Chewie is cuffed and escorted by Han and Luke, through to the moment where Obi Wan is powering down the tractor beam. The music is somewhat sparse in it's approach, consistently so. I don't mean a literal lack of music, because there obviously isn't; I'm instead referring to the actual writing and orchestration.

All of the quieter moments in SW are scored in a way in which the music merely evokes a sense of ambience and atmosphere - its mainly atonal stuff like soft timpani and deep, bassy strings; whereas by the time JW got to ESB he seemed to fully embrace the entire orchestra - fleshing out of the sequel's quieter moments with rich orchestrations of melodic and rhythmic underscore. Why the change? Did he have more time to write? Did he grow in confidence considerably after the success of Star Wars? The answer to the latter is almost certainly a yes of course.

I'm not at all criticising JW's 'sparse' underscore style in the first movie; because I in fact love those more subtle musical moments dearly and I'm glad they are the way they are. I'm merely stating that I find it interesting how I was never able to hear that brand of JW ever again after he completed his score to Star Wars.

The first score sounds like it's own entity; almost separate to the other movies in the saga and in some ways I think it it remains the best SW score as a direct result.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

In no way whatsoever do I have the musical knowledge to write about this, but I've always noticed a bit of a difference between Star Wars and the later films, too. I've always assumed it had more to do with the recording than the actual music, but again, I can't say much of any use.

I will, however, be very interested in reading what other people have to say on this topic.

[Quintus 5,399]

Oh for certain the recording conditions play a big part here, but there is still a definite and clear difference between the actual underscore writing style of the first movie and the second.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I find it sounds and feels vastly different to ESB and RotJ. Why? What happened with JW between EpIV and EpV? We all know how great the action stuff is in ANH, but his scoring of moments like early on in the film with Luke at home with Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru, or when the Stormtroopers are searching for Luke and the droids in Mos Eisley and later with the Death Star scenes, when Chewie is cuffed and escorted by Han and Luke through to the moment when Obi Wan is powering down the tractor beam. The music is somewhat sparse in it's approach, consistently so. I don't mean a literal lack of music, because there obviously isn't, I'm instead referring to the actual writing and orchestration.

I think I see what you're saying. I believe that the first Star Wars is a film scored more with a 1970's sensiblity. Despite the fact that there's a lot more music than what was used to do in the typical 70's picture, I feel Williams still approached the score with that sensibility, also because Star Wars is a film that still owes much to the 1970's filmmaking style. As you noticed, the style of the underscore is much more sparse and dry. And there are also quite a few moments of silence and absence of music, which was a very common practice back then.

Right after the success of Star Wars, filmmakers started asking JW to score their movies from beginning to end, so it's very likely that Williams had to find a different approach to the scoring of these films (Superman, for example, despite some very 1970's stylings in the scoring, is imho a film scored more with the 80's Williams sensibility). Also, considering he was able to use the full power of a huge symphony orchestra almost every time, he saw the possibilities to explore the sounds and the textures of the orchestra in a way he wasn't permitted before. So, starting with Empire Strikes Back, Williams found a new, different way to underscore and accompany the film with music, but the reason is also that the filmmaking style of those kind of movies started to evolve into something different.

[Dole 17]

I don't mean a literal lack of music, because there obviously isn't, I'm instead referring to the actual writing and orchestration.

Well, there certainly is a difference in the amount of underscore in Star Wars vs. ESB and ROTJ. Star Wars is a beautifully spotted film. I don't think the same can be said about the other two films. Williams wrote a lot of music he probably didn't need to write (e.g. the duel scene in the Carbon-Freezing Chamber) in the two sequels. I know you specifically said you're talking about orchestration rather than the amount of music, but I don't think that in discussing the differences you can ignore the fact that Williams wrote much more music for the sequels, and that much of that extra music, although nice to listen to, was rightly dropped from the final films.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I don't hear any underscore in Star Wars. Just vitalscore.

[Quintus 5,399]

Correct, but like I said, I'm talking about the actual feel, the texture of the underscore, or your 'vitalscore'.

I believe that the first Star Wars is a film scored more with a 1970's sensiblity. Despite the fact that there's a lot more music than what was used to do in the typical 70's picture, I feel Williams still approached the score with that sensibility, also because Star Wars is a film that still owes much to the 1970's filmmaking style. As you noticed, the style of the underscore is much more sparse and dry. And there are also quite a few moments of silence and absence of music, which was a very common practice back then.

Right after the success of Star Wars, filmmakers started asking JW to score their movies from beginning to end, so it's very likely that Williams had to find a different approach to the scoring of these films

Some very good and probably on the money points

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Well Eyeman...

I think what you're talking about is the style of underscores of the 60s. I think that is essentially why Star Wars sounds like such a unique score. It is a score of the 60s mixed with modern and romantic sensibilities and stuck in 1977.

Listen to Goldsmith's The Twilight Zone Movie...specifically the whole time travel bits, and you'll hear that same sparse ambience. Music that is driven completely by the feel it evokes, and again there is an apparent percussive base.

Personally I think the approach to underscore was tip-top in the 60s...and the best composers we've had have recognized that. Even in ESB, Williams harkened back to that era...and I think the majority of the underscore of something like "The Carbon Freeze" shows that.

[MrScratch 294]

The first score has always sounded different to me too. Some things about it that stick out to me from the other films are mainly the instrumentation, it sounds much more in the style of the late 1900s Romantic/operatic music than the others do. ESB and all the scores that followed feel much more modern at times with bizarre instrumentation like in the Battle of Hoth, an electronic sound like in the Magic Tree and of course Star Wars is the only score of the six to be purely instrumental, all others have chorus in at least one scene. As for the prequels I feel that the chorus was overused entirely. There are also passages of Star Wars that feel jazzy to me, the music for the Jawas and the music when they sneaking around Mos Eisley and the Death Star.

[Ollie 1,059]

I can't add anything, I pretty much agree with most of the comments here.

Star Wars does indeed stand on it's own. Both score and film.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I find it sounds and feels vastly different to ESB and RotJ. Why? What happened with JW between EpIV and EpV? We all know how great the action stuff is in Star Wars, but his scoring of moments like early on in the film with Luke at home with Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru, or when the Stormtroopers are searching for Luke and the droids in Mos Eisley and later with the Death Star scenes, when Chewie is cuffed and escorted by Han and Luke through to the moment when Obi Wan is powering down the tractor beam. The music is somewhat sparse in it's approach, consistently so. I don't mean a literal lack of music, because there obviously isn't, I'm instead referring to the actual writing and orchestration.

All of the quieter moments in Star Wars are scored in a way that the music merely evokes a sense of ambience and atmosphere; its mainly atonal stuff like soft timpanis and deep bassy strings, whereas by the time JW got to ESB he seemed to fully embrace the entire orchestra and began work on the fleshing out of the sequel's quieter moments with rich orchestrations of melodic and rhythmic underscore. Why the change? Did he have more time to write? Did he grow in confidence considerably after the success of Star Wars? The answer to the latter is almost certainly a yes of course.

I'm not at all criticising JW's 'sparse' underscore style in Star Wars, because I in fact love those more subtle musical moments dearly and I'm glad they're the way they are. I'm merely stating that I find it interesting how I was never able to hear that brand of JW ever again after he completed his score to Star Wars.

The first score sounds like it's own entity, almost separate to the other movies in the saga and in some ways it remains the best score as a result.

I agree with you in that Star Wars is the best score, its also the best film too(but thats a different subject). I think its approach is most effective when the music goes from somber to very kinetic, such as in Ben's Death and Attack of the Tie Fighters. The drama builds because of the use of subtle music. I love the underscoring when Ben disables the tractor beam, the music is there, yet it is almost like a pin dropping. I don't think confidnence is an issue with John, I think how he approached ESB in a different manner was more by design, and the different feel of the movie, of course everything about ESB is bigger, and John scores bigger for the needs of the film.

I think Star Wars is among the least appreciated scores on this board as the majority feel ESB to be superior, course I feel differently because I've figuritively listened to it a million times, even now with my Star Wars cd's 9 miles away, I can still in my mind play many of the pieces in my head, I can't do that with any other of the sequel scores. Thanks GE, when I get home I'll have to play it for real.

[A24 4,326]

I think Star Wars is one of the best scores ever (as a stand-alone listen). EBS is so different that I don't even like it. It's too big, too nervous, too sweeping, too suffocating, too much of everything. Star Wars is a score. EBS is an "overscore".

Alex

[Hlao-roo 389]

EBS is so different that I don't even like it. It's too big, too nervous, too sweaping, too suffocating, too much of everything. Star Wars is a score. EBS is an "overscore".

Yeah, Empire bites sack.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Williams wrote a lot of music he probably didn't need to write (e.g. the duel scene in the Carbon-Freezing Chamber) in the two sequels.

Something we shouldnt be complaining about anyway.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

did I mention GE great post,

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Joe, you just double posted 3 posts apart...

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Joe, you just double posted 3 posts apart...

no this lousy MB did, I posted it once, quite a while back.

[Trent B 337]

I don't hear any underscore in Star Wars. Just vitalscore.

[MrScratch 294]

I think Star Wars is one of the best scores ever (as a stand-alone listen). EBS is so different that I don't even like it. It's too big, too nervous, too sweaping, too suffocating, too much of everything. Star Wars is a score. EBS is an "overscore".

What nonsense. Suffocating? Nervous? That makes no sense. I love the different colors Williams uses for the three acts of the film, the icy cold Hoth, the eerie and mysterious Dagobah, and the beautiful city in the clouds. The music as heard in the film is not an overscore, since some of it was dropped. The unused music is still quite good and tells the story when heard as part of the listening experience.

It is different, but that doesn't make it bad. Star Wars (both the movie and score) is very romantic and uplifting, ESB is more dramatic and things take a turn for the worse for our heroes. Maybe that's what you mean by suffocating, our heroes don't have a chance to breath and are constantly on the run. In that case, it is excellent scoring.

[Quintus 5,399]

I don't hear any underscore in Star Wars. Just vitalscore.

Yes.

[Neimoidian 14]

First Star Wars score always seems to me like a true and old-school Golden Age score, the one that could have supposedly been written by the classic composers of 40s, 50s and 60s. ESB on the other hand - as someone has already said - is a modern ( 80s ) JW.

[karelm 2,903]

First Star Wars score always seems to me like a true and old-school Golden Age score, the one that could have supposedly been written by the classic composers of 40s, 50s and 60s. ESB on the other hand - as someone has already said - is a modern ( 80s ) JW.

I believe the difference in the scores of SW - ANH and ESB are very noticeable just like the look and feel of the films are so different. Don't forget ESB is more of a character development film than an action film and the approach to scoring reflects this. Remember that no one believed SW would be anything more than a popcorn movie that would come and go but by ESB they had a giant hit on their hands and therefore expanded the schedules, budgets, screenplay, FX, directing, etc. This change in approach is felt in the music too - the themes are more developed and at their core more expressive than SW which has more of the Korngold swashbuckling sound in it. Also, the recording budget was noticeably higher so the orchestra was larger (I believe from 88 players to up to 104) and the recording techniques more sophisticated. I think they had more time for retakes so the music is less crude in ESB. They also recorded it in a different studio (Anvil to Abbey Road). There are many reasons why the "sound" is different.

[Henry B 50]

Too bad ESB has never sounded very good on CD. Star Wars sounds spectacular on the Special Edition release. And the orchestra size? I love it. The smaller string section is so much more expressive than the epic choir of strings Williams typically employs.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

I keep reading that Star Wars sounds like a classic Korngold film score. What I, however, hardly ever see anybody say is, despite the use of a conventional orchestra, how alien some of it sounds. A lot of parts in Star Wars sound somewhat slightly weird, off or alien to me. Which, of course, is entirely appropriate and I think was completely intentional on John Williams' part. This is something I do not notice in any of the other Star Wars scores at all. That is why I think Star Wars is the most original of all of them. However, I like ESB more because the slight alien sound is not entirely my cup of tea. I like it a lot, but not as much as the "ordinary orchestral sound" from the other Star Wars scores.

[Trent Hoyt 13]

Every single note and cue of Star Wars is perfect. Each cue has something different going on. I know there is much love for ESB but Star Wars is really the better score.

[karelm 2,903]

I keep reading that Star Wars sounds like a classic Korngold film score. What I, however, hardly ever see anybody say is, despite the use of a conventional orchestra, how alien some of it sounds. A lot of parts in Star Wars sound somewhat slightly weird, off or alien to me. Which, of course, is entirely appropriate and I think was completely intentional on John Williams' part. This is something I do not notice in any of the other Star Wars scores at all. That is why I think Star Wars is the most original of all of them. However, I like ESB more because the slight alien sound is not entirely my cup of tea. I like it a lot, but not as much as the "ordinary orchestral sound" from the other Star Wars scores.

Let me first say I am a HUGE fan of Star Wars music - but it is not original. You can hear what the film was temped with when you listen to Star Wars, but you can't on Empire. It is commonly known that Williams was hired on Star Wars to adapt classical music. You can hear the Korngold fanfares, Holst marches, Stravinsky alien landscapes, Walton epic battles, etc. I don't believe Williams was let loose much on Star Wars, but was given more free reign on ESB. Star Wars is still a staggering achievement and easily one of the top 25 film scores of all time and one of my personal favorites. It shows a master craftsman at work, but original it is not.

[Lurker 5]

Every single note and cue of Star Wars is perfect. Each cue has something different going on. I know there is much love for ESB but Star Wars is really the better score.

Yep.

Neil

[King Mark 3,626]

EBS is so different that I don't even like it. It's too big, too nervous, too sweeping, too suffocating, too much of everything. Star Wars is a score. EBS is an "overscore".

Alex

i've just lost all respect in any of your opinions

[A24 4,326]

EBS is so different that I don't even like it. It's too big, too nervous, too sweeping, too suffocating, too much of everything. Star Wars is a score. EBS is an "overscore".

Alex

i've just lost all respect in any of your opinions

How convenient for you. You never had any respect in the first place.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Then you can't blame him for losing it.

[A24 4,326]

I never liked the soundtrack to EBS. Star Wars has a compositional clarity one can find in Prokofiev and Stravinsky. EBS sounds more like ... Hollywood film music. I never was a big fan of film music.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

Let me first say I am a HUGE fan of Star Wars music - but it is not original. You can hear what the film was temped with when you listen to Star Wars, but you can't on Empire. It is commonly known that Williams was hired on Star Wars to adapt classical music. You can hear the Korngold fanfares, Holst marches, Stravinsky alien landscapes, Walton epic battles, etc. I don't believe Williams was let loose much on Star Wars, but was given more free reign on ESB. Star Wars is still a staggering achievement and easily one of the top 25 film scores of all time and one of my personal favorites. It shows a master craftsman at work, but original it is not.

I'm not familiar with Holst, Stravinski and Walton at all, so I won't argue that. Based on what I have heard though, it is original. And I haven't really heard any Korngold in it, unless it's got Korngold in it that I'm not familiar with either.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

EBS sounds more like ... Hollywood film music. I never was a big fan of film music.

I agree, it sounds more like the empire's back side

[karelm 2,903]

Let me first say I am a HUGE fan of Star Wars music - but it is not original. You can hear what the film was temped with when you listen to Star Wars, but you can't on Empire. It is commonly known that Williams was hired on Star Wars to adapt classical music. You can hear the Korngold fanfares, Holst marches, Stravinsky alien landscapes, Walton epic battles, etc. I don't believe Williams was let loose much on Star Wars, but was given more free reign on ESB. Star Wars is still a staggering achievement and easily one of the top 25 film scores of all time and one of my personal favorites. It shows a master craftsman at work, but original it is not.

I'm not familiar with Holst, Stravinski and Walton at all, so I won't argue that. Based on what I have heard though, it is original. And I haven't really heard any Korngold in it, unless it's got Korngold in it that I'm not familiar with either.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying - it sounds like you are saying is its original based on the fact you've not heard the music it is based on which doesn't make sense. Check out Walton's "Battle of Britain" for the battle music; Korngold's "King's Row" for the main title, Holst's "Mars" from the Planets, Stravinsky's Rite of Spring (Introduction to Part II); inversion of Barry's "Born Free" for the melody - mix it all up and hand it to a skilled composer and you get Star Wars. Original it is not; but great it still is.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

I suppose I didn't say that right. I meant to say that it sounded original to me, not knowing that music you mention.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Every single note and cue of Star Wars is perfect. Each cue has something different going on. I know there is much love for ESB but Star Wars is really the better score.

Yep

Joe

[MrScratch 294]

Let me first say I am a HUGE fan of Star Wars music - but it is not original. You can hear what the film was temped with when you listen to Star Wars, but you can't on Empire. It is commonly known that Williams was hired on Star Wars to adapt classical music. You can hear the Korngold fanfares, Holst marches, Stravinsky alien landscapes, Walton epic battles, etc. I don't believe Williams was let loose much on Star Wars, but was given more free reign on ESB. Star Wars is still a staggering achievement and easily one of the top 25 film scores of all time and one of my personal favorites. It shows a master craftsman at work, but original it is not.

This is an excellent point. In almost every cue you can hear the inspiration for it, I don't hear such obvious inspiration for ESB. Don't get me wrong, both are 5-star film scores but I agree that ESB is more original than Star Wars.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I keep reading that Star Wars sounds like a classic Korngold film score. What I, however, hardly ever see anybody say is, despite the use of a conventional orchestra, how alien some of it sounds. A lot of parts in Star Wars sound somewhat slightly weird, off or alien to me. Which, of course, is entirely appropriate and I think was completely intentional on John Williams' part. This is something I do not notice in any of the other Star Wars scores at all. That is why I think Star Wars is the most original of all of them. However, I like ESB more because the slight alien sound is not entirely my cup of tea. I like it a lot, but not as much as the "ordinary orchestral sound" from the other Star Wars scores.

Let me first say I am a HUGE fan of Star Wars music - but it is not original. You can hear what the film was temped with when you listen to Star Wars, but you can't on Empire. It is commonly known that Williams was hired on Star Wars to adapt classical music. You can hear the Korngold fanfares, Holst marches, Stravinsky alien landscapes, Walton epic battles, etc. I don't believe Williams was let loose much on Star Wars, but was given more free reign on ESB. Star Wars is still a staggering achievement and easily one of the top 25 film scores of all time and one of my personal favorites. It shows a master craftsman at work, but original it is not.

what a load of bantha poodoo,

it was never commonly known that Williams, who was suggested to Lucas by Spielberg, was there to adapt classical music.

Sounds like you've been listening to your professionally jealous professors who don't know s***

we've heard the extremely tired argument before and its doesn't fly here.

[MrScratch 294]

Music professors don't know sh!t? Right, Joey on the jwfan website knows more than college professors. You can admire and enjoy the score and still acknowledge that it is heavily inspired by previous works. Have you heard some of the pieces mentioned? You don't have to be a jealous professor to hear the similarities.

[Ollie 1,059]

To quote Ford Thaxton:

Next!

[karelm 2,903]

I keep reading that Star Wars sounds like a classic Korngold film score. What I, however, hardly ever see anybody say is, despite the use of a conventional orchestra, how alien some of it sounds. A lot of parts in Star Wars sound somewhat slightly weird, off or alien to me. Which, of course, is entirely appropriate and I think was completely intentional on John Williams' part. This is something I do not notice in any of the other Star Wars scores at all. That is why I think Star Wars is the most original of all of them. However, I like ESB more because the slight alien sound is not entirely my cup of tea. I like it a lot, but not as much as the "ordinary orchestral sound" from the other Star Wars scores.

Let me first say I am a HUGE fan of Star Wars music - but it is not original. You can hear what the film was temped with when you listen to Star Wars, but you can't on Empire. It is commonly known that Williams was hired on Star Wars to adapt classical music. You can hear the Korngold fanfares, Holst marches, Stravinsky alien landscapes, Walton epic battles, etc. I don't believe Williams was let loose much on Star Wars, but was given more free reign on ESB. Star Wars is still a staggering achievement and easily one of the top 25 film scores of all time and one of my personal favorites. It shows a master craftsman at work, but original it is not.

what a load of bantha poodoo,

it was never commonly known that Williams, who was suggested to Lucas by Spielberg, was there to adapt classical music.

Sounds like you've been listening to your professionally jealous professors who don't know s***

we've heard the extremely tired argument before and its doesn't fly here.

Joey,

Are you nuts? What is your point based on? There are interviews where Williams himself says he was brought on to Star Wars to adapt classical pieces and felt he could do more with an original score and convinced Lucas of this. Check out the interviews of Williams before stating this is from jealous professors.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Music professors don't know sh!t? Right, Joey on the jwfan website knows more than college professors. You can admire and enjoy the score and still acknowledge that it is heavily inspired by previous works. Have you heard some of the pieces mentioned? You don't have to be a jealous professor to hear the similarities.

you don't know s*** obiviously, I never said I know more than a music professor, but there are more than a few music professors out there who continue to spout their bull that Star Wars is nothing more than Williams stealing the Planets, why don't you go scratch your *** with that one.

Again Williams wasn't brought on to adapt classical pieces, thats what George had been thinking but Williams wanted to do original music which he did, of course some FOOLS believe that John stole/copied this score and that isn't true.

As Mark said NEXT.

[MrScratch 294]

you don't know s*** obiviously, I never said I know more than a music professor, but there are more than a few music professors out there who continue to spout their bull that Star Wars is nothing more than Williams stealing the Planets, why don't you go scratch your *** with that one.

Again Williams wasn't brought on to adapt classical pieces, thats what George had been thinking but Williams wanted to do original music which he did, of course some FOOLS believe that John stole/copied this score and that isn't true.

You are in denial if you can't acknowledge the many inspirations for this score. I never called it stealing, nor did I ever defend those who do claim Star Wars is an unoriginal cut and paste job. But there are some things in that score that are clearly inspired by The Planets, Rite of Spring, Opera etc. It doesn't take anything away from it, Lucas borrowed many elements when writing the story. Why is it so hard to accept that Williams borrowed many elements when writing the score? Like I said earlier you can admire and enjoy the music and still acknowledge that it is inspired by previous works.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I thought you were taking the theft approach, that always ticks me off. Inspiration is fine, plagerism is another.

One thing is certain it is still an absolute grand score.

[Quintus 5,399]

To be inspired is one thing. To 'adapt' or even outright copy is another.

I only have a problem with the ignorant views of those who prefer the latter option.

EDIT: Damn it Joe, you beat me to it by 1 minute!

[A24 4,326]

To be inspired is one thing. To 'adapt' or even outright copy is another.

I only have a problem with the ignorant views of those who prefer the latter option.

EDIT: Damn it Joe, you beat me to it by 1 minute!

If you would ask me, I think you copied Joe's post. One minute is enough to pull it off. Shame on you!

[Quintus 5,399]

Damn, caught red handed.

Besides, you know your own tricks best

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I've called you many a thing GE, but never this until now... Plagerist.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

This bickering is pointless!

[Quintus 5,399]

Bickering? Who's bickering?!

Humouring the meek is the better description.