The underscore of Star Wars

[Quintus 5,399]

The first score sounds like it's own entity; almost separate to the other movies in the saga and in some ways I think it it remains the best SW score as a direct result.

There's no thinking about it: Star Wars is, to quote André Previn: "an extraordinary score", written in a time when Williams was still very much a pure composer of orchestral music - with a happy coincidence that he wrote for film. I've just had the most amazing time listening to the score (it's been quite a while) and I find it difficult to nail down what makes this score quite so unique. Indeed, it's the most unique score of Williams' entire career - a truly unexpected quality which was only ever going to become apparent upon delayed reflection. Yep, it's a classic.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree with you. Star Wars is unlike any of the other scores. It's not part of a greater whole.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Excellent thread Quint.

I think why STAR WARS is such a unique work, is because of Williams's uncertainty. He's still testing the water here, hence the references to the classical (or early modern) repertoire, and within an idiom was familiar with from lOST IN SPACE (which itself was derived from Bernard Herrmann). As others have noted too, there's also the film's style. It's dirty, homegrown, and rough around the edges, so the score's orchestration (a lot of dry percussion and woodwind textures) reflects that.

I think why I like the following two scores more, is because Williams wasn't pussyfooting anymore. He brought in the Arp 2600 synth for many dozens of cues (played by Francis Monkman, Ann Odell and Brian Gascoigne) - whereas before he only used it for the Cantina Band, featured an Fender Rhodes electric piano, went crazy with the orchestration (in the tradition of North and Herrmann - i.e. 5 piccolos, 5 oboes, 8 percussion, 2 pianos and 3 harps for The Battle of Hoth), started implementing avant garde techniques (namely aleatoricism and tone clusters) whereas in the original that was just limited to the Sand People attack and et al...

That's the big difference. By EMPIRE and JEDI, he wasn't afraid of being too alien or scary. And because of that, there's a wider range of emotions. For me, RETURN OF THE JEDI is the pinnacle of his STAR WARS work. After 3 films, he finally mastered that balance.

[Faleel 5,336]

I thought the underscore in star wars sounded more "classical" almost like something that would be written by 1700's/1800's composers.

And ROTJ's underscore is (somewhat) boring.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I thought the underscore in star wars sounded more "classical" almost like something that would be written by 1700's/1800's composers.

It sounds more début de siècle to me.

About ROTJ - disagree there completely. Sure, there's a weariness to it, and one could argue that it's over-scored. But it ain't dull. It's got a very unique, "the hour is late" vibe to it.

[Romão 2,274]

I thought the underscore in star wars sounded more "classical" almost like something that would be written by 1700's/1800's composers.

It sounds more début de siècle to me.

About ROTJ - disagree there completely. Sure, there's a weariness to it, and one could argue that it's over-scored. But it ain't dull. It's got a very unique, "the hour is late" vibe to it.

I agree 100% with you. It's glorious stuff and so full of character

[karelm 2,903]

A few points I think are worth mentioning - don't forget that Star Wars and Empire had different directors. As the film composer, JW serves the directors wishes. Kershner is the one who temped Empire so it followed his character driven drama more than Star Wars. Also, Williams himself said the Empire used a "tone poem" approach. In other words, the music tells a story more directly than just following the action of the scene. These are important factors in why the feel is different. Williams also intended to expand on the music he had already written in Star Wars - take it in new directions. Star Wars was also more motific but I find ESB more thematic. For example, he says: "There will be a new piece of music for Darth Vader, who plays a more important role in this film. In Star Wars, he had what you could call a muiscal fragment, but in the new picture, there will be a Grand Imperial March." It just sounds like they're thinking on a grander scale with more elaborate locations, characters, drama, etc., and needed music to match.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Every single note and cue of Star Wars is perfect. Each cue has something different going on. I know there is much love for ESB but Star Wars is really the better score.

Nope.

Me.

[A24 4,326]

For me, RETURN OF THE JEDI is the pinnacle of his STAR WARS work.

I think that's because ROTJ was the first Star Wars film you saw.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

resusrecting old treads...

Raiders 'suffers' from the same, its more restrained and self-conmtained than the sequels, not meaning a bad thing.

[Quintus 5,399]

Yeah I resurrected it. Because at 12.30am, after listening to the score, it made sense to - rather than type up a new one which would pretty much say the same thing. I remembered this one and resurrected it, job done.

[crocodile 7,984]

Some things are meant to stay buried.

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

Is that your family's moto?

[crocodile 7,984]

You'd me amazed.

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

Father under the patio?

[crocodile 7,984]

Which one of the three are you referring to?

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

You have three patios? You must be posh.

[crocodile 7,984]

I have a large family, you see.

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

Right.

[The Dark Trilogy 39]

To go back to the original post (I know the thread is now three years old, but...): What do you mean by different? The orchestration? If you mean this issue, I can tell you that even The Phantom Menace uses the same orchestration as Star Wars done in 1977. If you do not believe me, ask Williams himself. He told it back in 1999 interview.

Now the discussions about which one is the best of the original trilogy:

Sorry, but Star Wars is really a bit unoriginal. I know that Williams was forced (okay he was asked by Lucas to do this) to comprise classical music as well as golden age music. So it was not Williams fault, but no matter if it is his fault or not... fact is that you can hear influences pretty well. The temp track on Star Wars is better than other temp tracks I've heard on other scores, but I cannot retouch that problematic.

The Empire Strikes Back is a bit overscored, yes. Another problem is the Imperial March, there are tooooooo much in this score. I do not have any problems of using more themes, but the Imperial March on this score is first not very varied in orchestration, dynamics and harmonic consequence and second too much one after another (in the complete score C&C, by the way). So the same goes to the action sequence from Battle of Hoth to Astroid Field. After over 20 minutes there was too much action non-stop. That means without slow and calm pieces.

However, the complete score is the best thing you can do it, the Anthology did not make any sense.

So Return of the Jedi is the best Star Wars score. It runs about two hours and fifteen minutes, which is the longest of the original trilogy. Here you have the best action sequences (yes, Battle of Endor is better than Battle of Hoth and Astroid Field, e.g.). And the development of themes Williams did is marvelous. This is the only score you have great fondling and transformations of themes. Generally the muscial development of the underscore is absolutely astonishing. An example is the Imperial March at the end, where the high strings dominate to underline the good in Darth Vader. Or Yoda's Death... All the improvements of Emperor's Theme at the end. So this score has such a dramaturgy as the other two ones could dream of!

If I read sentences like Return of the Jedi underscore is boring, that tells me that they did not understand the musical dramaturgy. I mentioned it in another thread: Wagner did also composed The Ring of the Nibelungen, where one opera runs approx. four hours. And there is also nothing boring, if you can completely understand the dramaturgy. Williams knew how to do it. And he did it best in Return of the Jedi.

And I was also pleased that he revised the poor ewok song at the end. Victory Celebration is so lyrical, so symphonic not not corny.

So hit me or stone if you want, but I guess I made an understandable statement, very small analysis. So no hassle, but I think musicologists would agree with me.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Now the discussions about who is the best of the original trilogy:

Sorry, but Star Wars is really a bit unoriginal. I know that Williams was forced (okay he was asked by Lucas to do this) to comprise classical music as well as golden age music. So it was not Williams fault, but no matter if it is his fault or not... fact is that you can hear influences pretty well. The temp track on Star Wars is better than other temp tracks I've heard on other scores, but I cannot retouch that problematic.

Fault? You make it sound like JW did something wrong?

His Star Wars score was designed to reference back to romantic music, and the swashbuckling music from hollywoods golden age. You are intended to pick up the similarities. John Williams is not at fault. He succeeded tremendously.

[Jilal 569]

First Star Wars score always seems to me like a true and old-school Golden Age score, the one that could have supposedly been written by the classic composers of 40s, 50s and 60s. ESB on the other hand - as someone has already said - is a modern ( 80s ) JW.

I believe the difference in the scores of SW - ANH and ESB are very noticeable just like the look and feel of the films are so different. Don't forget ESB is more of a character development film than an action film and the approach to scoring reflects this. Remember that no one believed SW would be anything more than a popcorn movie that would come and go but by ESB they had a giant hit on their hands and therefore expanded the schedules, budgets, screenplay, FX, directing, etc. This change in approach is felt in the music too - the themes are more developed and at their core more expressive than SW which has more of the Korngold swashbuckling sound in it. Also, the recording budget was noticeably higher so the orchestra was larger (I believe from 88 players to up to 104) and the recording techniques more sophisticated. I think they had more time for retakes so the music is less crude in ESB. They also recorded it in a different studio (Anvil to Abbey Road). There are many reasons why the "sound" is different.

Are you sure? I thought ESB was recorded in Anvil studios. I'll check the booklet.

[A24 4,326]

So Return of the Jedi is the best Star Wars score.

Return Of The Jedi is the first Star Wars film little ckappes ever saw.

Alex

[Romão 2,274]

It's easily my favorite score from the OT, and it has nothing to do with which movie I saw first, and as I watched them all for the first time in order when they aired on local TV

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's a marvelous score, but not my favourite of the OT.

[The Dark Trilogy 39]

Now the discussions about who is the best of the original trilogy:

Sorry, but Star Wars is really a bit unoriginal. I know that Williams was forced (okay he was asked by Lucas to do this) to comprise classical music as well as golden age music. So it was not Williams fault, but no matter if it is his fault or not... fact is that you can hear influences pretty well. The temp track on Star Wars is better than other temp tracks I've heard on other scores, but I cannot retouch that problematic.

Fault? You make it sound like JW did something wrong?

His Star Wars score was designed to reference back to romantic music, and the swashbuckling music from hollywoods golden age. You are intended to pick up the similarities. John Williams is not at fault. He succeeded tremendously.

No, I am very happy that he wrote romantic music, with "fault" I mean... okay "fault" is maybe the wrong word. I think the score would be better if he did not use temp tracks. Sorry for confusion.

Lucas asked him to set the classical music tracks into the Star Wars score. That was Lucas' "fault", you know what I mean?

So Return of the Jedi is the best Star Wars score.

Return Of The Jedi is the first Star Wars film little ckappes ever saw.

Alex

My first Star Wars movie I ever saw was A New Hope. And my musical favorites has nothing to do which film I saw first. Please do not imply that simply. Merkel is right.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No, I am very happy that he wrote romantic music, with "fault" I mean... okay "fault" is maybe the wrong word. I think the score would be better if he did not use temp tracks. Sorry for confusion.

Lucas asked him to set the classical music tracks into the Star Wars score. That was Lucas' "fault", you know what I mean?

I know what you mean, but I disagree with it. First of all again you say fault like there is something wrong with using some classical music and film music as a template for this score.

I think it was an inspired choice to go for a soundtrack with a hint of the familiar in a movie that harkens back to an earlier time anyway. and Williams uses the temp track suggestions in a very clever way. He does not try to hige the influence of other composers, nor does he simply copy and paste. It's very much a John Williams score. Just as much as Empire of Jedi.

[The Dark Trilogy 39]

Ahh... now I understand what you mean. I did not say that Williams made a copy and paste job. Star Wars is a really great score, all Star Wars scores of the original trilogy are amazing. The combination of what he did with classical music Lucas "gave" him, is well-thought in A New Hope. Other composers should look at Williams' shoulder how he comprised the pieces into his work. It is an masterpiece as well as the sequels.

BUT... it is a "blemish" that you could hear the classical music tracks, top build in(!), but it would be better if did not comprises the classical music tracks into it.

For understanding: The symphonic character he built it up and the way he composed this score is such enormous and marks an important point in history of film music. I hope that is clear enough.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Star Wars: A New Hope was the third Star Wars film I saw

1st was Star Wars

2nd was the Empire Strikes Back

3rd was Star Wars: A New Hope.

Star Wars is still the best for me, and it's still the greatest movie going experience I ever had.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Don't forget Star Wars: Episode IV- A New Hope The Special Edition and Star Wars: Episode IV- A New Hope The 2004 Special Edition and the Star Wars: Episode IV- A New Hope The Special Edition 3D which is coming soon!

[The Dark Trilogy 39]

The 3D version maybe not, I read on another thread if The Phantom Menace 3D won't hit the box office, then they will cancel the sequels.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Oh no!

[Jilal 569]

DO NOT WANT!!!!!!!!

[The Dark Trilogy 39]

The combination of what he did with classical music Lucas "gave" him, is well-thought in A New Hope.

I guess I quote myself for further explanation because someone could ask: "What is so well-thought, so special about comprising classical music tracks in this score?"

That is an interesting question. Lucas wanted to set classical music pieces in the same way as Kubrick did it for 2001. We all know the story: Spielberg recommended Williams to Lucas. Lucas showed Williams the classical pieces he wanted to bring it in Star Wars.

I read an interview that Williams himself(!) said that he did not want a piece of Dvorak here and a Host there and so on. So his "compromise" was to build the classical pieces into the Star Wars score as a link to the score of 2001. He comprised the classical pieces, knowingly in his mind to set a link to 2001 score. If you go to Williams' repertoire you will notice that he did not show the inspirations so "clearly" as he did it for Star Wars.

So that is the meaning of well-thought in this context. A pro for the original Star Wars score!

EDIT: BTW, this is my thesis. If someone can falsify that thesis, go on!

[GoodMusician 56]

Well, look at the difference between Star Wars and the following OT films.

The first was, as we've all discussed, based heavily on the idea of trying to make an updated similar sounding classical piece to those Lucas picked out. If I recall, Williams spoke about this before saying that if that's what the director wants, that's what he gets and that's how you keep your job lol... So he wrote them with that mindset.

Then Empire was handed over to Kurshner who I bet did NOT tell Williams anything about the score as far as Classical pieces. I've seen that making of documentary and there was no temp music in any of the scenes they showed and Lucas was there too but didn't say a whole lot.

It seems that Williams in essence proved himself in the first one and then was allowed to kinda do his thing for the next two with no other influences musically. At least, that we know of.

[karelm 2,903]

Then Empire was handed over to Kurshner who I bet did NOT tell Williams anything about the score as far as Classical pieces. I've seen that making of documentary and there was no temp music in any of the scenes they showed and Lucas was there too but didn't say a whole lot.

Kershner DID use temp scores very carefully in Empire. He said so in the Empire Making of Book. Importantly, a great composer understands temp tracks are not to be mimicked but are rather a method of communicating a directors intentions using a vocabularly that both director and composer can understand.

"Kershner was witnessed rummaging around his Marin County house picking out one LP after another...he had played and rejected snatches of Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Hindemith, and Copland, and Prokofiev."

"I'll use them to make a temp track," Kershner explains. "You see, John Williams is coming in from LA to view the film, so I want it to have a temporary music track when he first sees it to help him know where we feel music will be most effective."

[The Dark Trilogy 39]

Yes, agreed. Only Star Wars had this unmistakable and not able to ignore classical music pieces, as The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi hasn't. But didn't I say this already?

Then Empire was handed over to Kurshner who I bet did NOT tell Williams anything about the score as far as Classical pieces. I've seen that making of documentary and there was no temp music in any of the scenes they showed and Lucas was there too but didn't say a whole lot.

Kershner DID use temp scores very carefully in Empire. He said so in the Empire Making of Book. Importantly, a great composer understands temp tracks are not to be mimicked but are rather a method of communicating a directors intentions using a vocabularly that both director and composer can understand.

Very interestiong. Which pieces did we want for The Empire Strikes Back?

EDIT: Question was answered above.

"Kershner was witnessed rummaging around his Marin County house picking out one LP after another...he had played and rejected snatches of Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Hindemoth, and Copland, and Prokofiev."

"I'll use them to make a temp track," Kershner explains. "You see, John Williams is coming in from LA to view the film, so I want it to have a temporary music track when he first sees it to help him know where we feel music will be most effective."

I think the major inspiration is Shostakovich for The Empire Strikes Back, because I hear a lot of Shostakovich strings in this score. Hyperspace is a very good example.

You said Hindemoth(?). I guess this guy is called Hindemith. Paul Hindemith.

[Quintus 5,399]

There are more factors than just the 'style' or motivations of the SW score which for me make it the best of the lot. Recording quality, for example, makes a huge contribution to its uniqueness.

[Faleel 5,336]

The same reason I prefer SW to ESB is the same reason I prefer BTTF1 to BTTF2.

[Quintus 5,399]

+1

Excellent analogy.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm not sure?

Isn't BTTF 2 basically a rearrangement for BTTF?

TESB is certainly not THAT.

[Faleel 5,336]

I mean in terms of performance, and general feeling (1 felt more nostalgic and energetic, where 2 felt a bit "Heavy" and a bit dark).

[Datameister 2,037]

I think that's a bizarre analogy, to be honest, Faleel...BTTF 2 is filled to the brim with music repurposed from the first film, partly because of how much the film retreads events covered in the first film. ESB, on the other hand, doesn't contain a single moment that was taken from ANH, with the obvious exceptions of the main titles and beginning of the end credits.

I suppose your analogy was more focused on the fact that both sequels are rather darker and less unabashedly adventurous than their predecessors? If that's the case, I see what you mean, but both sequel scores still have plenty of oomph.

Anyway, I think Star Wars remains an absolutely phenomenal score. If I were stuck with just one album for the rest of my life, I'd pick the RCA release of Star Wars...there are other scores that are equally impressive showcases of Williams' brilliance, but this is the score that started it all for me, and listening to it continues to be a thrilling and rewarding experience. It is indeed very different from all the Star Wars scores that followed...I mean, each one has its own unique flavor, but this one really stands apart. It's simultaneously less melodramatic and more openly swashbuckling, and like the film, it feels less like a polished component of a franchise and more like the product of a young creative mind in the process of discovering its voice. This is a score that takes me on a journey, and when "The Throne Room" takes that final not-too-slow plunge into the excitement of the end credits, there's still a part of me that feels like jumping up and applauding. A big part of it is surely the quality of the performance, recording, and mixing...if this score were to be re-recorded with modern equipment and the slick, refined performance style often heard these days, I'm afraid a lot of the excitement would be lost in translation. (Take a listen to "The Throne Room" in the ROTS credits for a perfect example of this...) As noted in the OP, much of the writing is a lot more streamlined and sparse and modular, without so much reliance on the thick, complex textures that have dominated some of Williams' writing in years since. In that way, it's very much a product of the 70s, with stronger ties to Superman and Jaws than to its own sequel scores (which are absolutely fantastic in their own ways, of course).

[Quintus 5,399]

Ah, I actually thought Faleel was referring to the superior recording quality of BTTF...

[karelm 2,903]

One thing I just thought about was SW might be considered a more entertaining listening experience because it builds and builds in momentum as the story progresses. ESB on the other hand builds in pathos as it progresses. It is sort of like a classical symphony that does not end on the tonic with the big finish that one would generally expect. The ending is dark and much more muted perfectly reflecting the plight of the characters. If I could pick only one, it would be ESB because I find it much more emotionally satisfying whereas SW is the more energetic, heroic, and yes traditional score. I find ROTJ to be a balance of the two. Summary - all three are masterpieces and compliment each other

[Datameister 2,037]

Ah, I actually thought Faleel was referring to the superior recording quality of BTTF...

I guess he posted while I was working on my post. Thanks for the clarification, Faleel...that's actually a really good point. Still, though, I think with BTTF, it's a straightforward case of the first film sounding better than the second, whereas ESB just sounds different from ANH. (On some days, I would say better...on same days, I'd say worse.)

[The Dark Trilogy 39]

Good statement, Datameister - why you think Star Wars to be the best.

I can also agree with karelm.

But I cannot understand how to rate a score based on recording quality... Sorry, but originality, haromonic sequences, melodies, connectivity, etc. goes over the quality of recording. What did someone say about the recordings of the 50s e.g.? Or what does it mean, if the worst score has the best recording quality - is it the best score automatically? No.

But another question, I think it is interesting for all members: What does John Williams think about? Which Star Wars score he considers as his best? And - interestingly - which reasons?

I cannot find an interview who he said which one is the best. Any sources?

[Datameister 2,037]

Good statement, Datameister - why you think Star Wars to be the best.

Well, don't get me wrong...I wouldn't necessarily call it the best. I said it was the one I'd pick over all the others, but ESB gives it an insanely good run for its money, just for somewhat different reasons. I just don't have quite as much nostalgia for that one.

But I cannot understand how to rate a score based on recording quality... Sorry, but originality, haromonic sequences, melodies, connectivity, etc. goes over the quality of recording.

The quality of the recording is just one of many factors that affects my enjoyment of a score. Obviously, it's not endemic to the composition itself - you can always do a re-recording with different conductors, performers, venues, recording engineers, and so forth. But regardless, whenever you listen to a piece of music, you are listening to a specific performance of that piece, and the quality of that performance impacts how effective the music is. If that weren't the case, people wouldn't invest years of their lives honing their skills with all these different musical instruments and pieces of equipment. Star Wars would sound different if it had been recorded by the same people in the same setting as ESB or ROTJ or the prequels or whatever. The sound even changes from release to release, as does the choice of takes. None of these things have anything to do with the quality of the composition itself, but they certainly affect the listening experience, as do all the factors that are specifically related to the composition itself.

But another question, I think it is interesting for all members: What does John Williams think about? Which Star Wars score he considers as his best?

Close Encounters.

[karelm 2,903]

What does John Williams think about? Which Star Wars score he considers as his best? And - interestingly - which reasons?

Oh, great question and I'd love to know the answer to that question. I think ESB is much more symphonic poem than SW which might explain why some (such as myself) prefer it more to SW which in and of itself is a fantastic score but offers less of a "journey" to the listener. For example, when Luke and Yoda discuss his impending fear that Luke denies, yoda says "You will be" and the music darkens considerably BEFORE the cut to Vader’s empire. I perceive this as an example of the music saying more than the dialog thereby leading the narrative. Works great as music but less so as score.

[indy4 155]

I'm not sure which score he likes best, but he said his favorite SW theme is Yoda's Theme.