The Themes of Howard Shore's The Hobbit

[Perdogg 1]

There seems to be a track left off the soundtracks; the first Radagast the Brown theme is not on the OST or the EE.

[wdb408 3]

I vaguely remember there being a statement of The Nine theme in the "Guardians of the Three" scene in the film. Was that tracked in? Also, can we just talk about how gorgeous that theme is?

You are correct; it plays when the Nine float up around Sauron before Galadriel banishes him. Really chilling moment in the film. It's a real shame that the soundtrack doesn't include it in that track. Can someone determine which cue from DOS it was probably tracked in from?

[Incanus 5,714]

I vaguely remember there being a statement of The Nine theme in the "Guardians of the Three" scene in the film. Was that tracked in? Also, can we just talk about how gorgeous that theme is?

Yes there was a statement and it was most likely tracked from DoS.

There seems to be a track left off the soundtracks; the first Radagast the Brown theme is not on the OST or the EE.

What do you mean by that? The film version of Radagast's music contains a lot of the same elements toned down than the one on the soundtrack albums and the revised versions did not indeed make it to the soundtrack albums. And a lot of tracks were left off the soundtrack album.

[MedigoScan 324]

that music for the Nine didnt sound entirely tracked

or at least I remember Only hearing the sopranos, and I dont remember if there was a soprano-only version of that theme in DOS

[Incanus 5,714]

The trouble is I could hardly hear a thing clearly because of the mix in BotFA.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,714]

- Don't know if you want to brand the bit at 04:28 as a theme or not, since it reprises the material for the golden statue in DOS.

Yea... I dunno, what do you guys think? Is this a theme? What does it represent?

Smaug's fate? Smaug's doom?

I wonder if it has a specific thematic meaning or is it just an extension of Smaug's themes. I hope it has some other meaning than just reprising it because PJ tracked the piece from DoS into the scene.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,714]

I vaguely remember there being a statement of The Nine theme in the "Guardians of the Three" scene in the film. Was that tracked in? Also, can we just talk about how gorgeous that theme is?

I don't get most of this tracking concern. Sure it seems tacky when they track LOTR cues in AUJ, but here The Nine theme was entirely appropriate and worked great. I don't worry whether it is tracked or not.

Because the music is the play thing of a director these days and I am miffed when they start plastering stuff into the film without even consulting the composer let alone do a piece of good spotting or trust that the composer actually knows what he is doing.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,714]

The trouble is I could hardly hear a thing clearly because of the mix in BotFA.

You must have picked the wrong cinema, the bit with The Nine sounded very clear to me!

Oh I heard it of course but could not say for certain whether it is tracked or not. It sounded quite familiar though so I supposed it was tracked.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,714]

Oh it is like speaking to a brick wall. I give up! Everything is awesome! Peter Jackson is a film making god and completely infallible in his choices! Rejoice! Rejoice!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

Oh it is like speaking to a brick wall.

No, it's not! At least, a brick wall doesn't answer back!

OK, a sentient brick wall capable of speech.

But this place would not be the same without SUH.

And yeah The Nine theme is quite nice there in the Dol Guldur scene.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,714]

Well you've heard its use now in DOS and BOTFA. And if you're concern is whether it had a meaning or was suggested by PJ to use again, just believe the first one and live a happier life.

I understand this, but surely three films in you're not still bothered by every minute change.

And I don't see why it should make you hate music that was used at the right moment in the film, just because you suspect the composer didn't intend it to go there.

Shore never intended the ring theme to play over the Argonath!

I guess I have an issue with the composer not having a chance to address the changes by composing new music or revising compositions. The Argonath is an example of such a possibility where PJ and Shore ended up using the History of the Ring theme and Shore wrote a new piece for the scene. They didn't just track another statement from elsewhere to the scene. LotR has a few moments of tracking but The Hobbit films are far worse case of second guessing from PJ. That said I really am glad we have the 2 disc soundtracks with Shore's original intentions intact. PJs instincts are not always bad when it comes to tracking or moving compositions but more often than not I prefer Shore's original idea more than later quick edit.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,714]

Yes the post production was screwed up compared with LOTR, with recording sessions finishing before any director changes can be rewritten and recorded.

AUJ was the worst offender. PJ obviously didn't quite know how to approach the score of the first film and where to focus with Bilbo's journey. With DoS and BotFA I get the feeling PJ had time to massage the music to his liking of course without Shore's direct input on the changes.

To PJs credit he does have a sense of Shore's themes (even though he couldn't remember how the Fellowship theme goes) and he uses them more often than not with a logic that relates to the drama (barring the tracking fest of AUJ where some of the thematic connections are tenuous at best).

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,714]

BOFA 2-10 Ironfoot

0:00-2:04 Dain

2:22-2:30 Girion

3:01-4:01 Bard The Leader

4:00-4:28 Lake-town Chase

4:33-5:02 Lake-town/Bard

5:06-5:33 Lake-town/Bard

5:33-6:11 Lake-town

Correction to the Ironfoot:

4:00-4:28 Lake-town Chase is actually Shire theme variation (in retrogrades) and this particular phrase can be traced to the An Unexpected Party (2:24- and again 3:23-) in AUJ.

Are we sure about the passage 2:22-2:30 being the Bard/Girion theme?

Yes the post production was screwed up compared with LOTR, with recording sessions finishing before any director changes can be rewritten and recorded.

AUJ was the worst offender. PJ obviously didn't quite know how to approach the score of the first film and where to focus with Bilbo's journey. With DoS and BotFA I get the feeling PJ had time to massage the music to his liking of course without Shore's direct input on the changes.

To PJs credit he does have a sense of Shore's themes (even though he couldn't remember how the Fellowship theme goes) and he uses them more often than not with a logic that relates to the drama (barring the tracking fest of AUJ where some of the thematic connections are tenuous at best).

But the difference was AUJ had major rewrites like the LOTR scores, so Shore recorded new compositions for many scenes even if they were statements of the Shire it Nazgul theme. Less lack of music in the film, since new music was written if PJ wasn't happy with it.

Where couldn't he remember the fellowship theme?

Hehehe It is shown in the DoS music documentary that when PJ is shooting one of Gandalf's scenes in Dol Guldur he suggests as a joke that McKellen could sing his theme, the Fellowship theme, when going in but doesn't remember how it goes and has to ask DP Andrew Lesnie to hum it for him.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Lesnie should have directed the movies!

[Jay 37,336]

There seems to be a track left off the soundtracks; the first Radagast the Brown theme is not on the OST or the EE.

Can you rephrase this? I don't understand what you're saying.

[Faleel 5,345]

I figured it would be a good Idea to paste my version of the thematic breakdown into one post instead of spread throughout.

Disc I

BOFA 1-01 Fire And Water

0:12-1:04 Dragon Sickness

0:24-0:33 Smaug A/B

0:54-1:02 Smaug A/B

1:04-1:19 Smaug B

1:18-1:24 a phrase from unreleased bit of My Armor Is Iron

1:23-1:29 The Politicians of Lake-town

1:29-1:47 Dragon-Sickness

1:34-1:40 Smaug B section.

1:47-1:51 Ascending phrase from unreleased bit of My Armor Is Iron

1:51-1:55 Smaug A

1:53-2:00 Girion

2:00-2:17 Dragon Sickness

2:00-2:24 Smaug B

2:24-2:29 Smaug A

2:40-2:51 Smaug B

2:51-3:08 Smaug A

3:08-3:23 Girion

3:23-3:35 Bard

3:35-3:50 Bard’s Family

3:50-3:55 Smaug B

4:05-4:13 Smaug A

4:05-4:13 Smaug B

4:28-4:45 Smaug Defied

4:45-5:00 Smaug B

5:00-5:05 Smaug A

5:05-5:22 Smaug B

5:52-5:40 Dragon Sickness

5:22-5:40 Smaug A

5:40-5:58 Erebor

BOFA 1-02 Shores Of The Long Lake

0:00-0:54 Tauriel and Kili (Intro)

0:54-1:22 Tauriel (B Section)

1:24-1:47 The Runestone (Tauriel and Kili?)

1:47-2:05 Tauriel and Kili

2:05-2:37 Bard The Leader

2:46-2:58 Bard and Family?

2:58-3:26 The Politicians of Lake-town

3:21-3:26 Dragon-Sickness

3:37-4:01 Bard The Leader

BOFA 1-03 Beyond Sorrow And Grief

0:05-0:20 House of Durin

0:23-0:32 Erebor

0:52-0:58 Erebor?

1:05-1:53 Dragon Sickness

1:07-1:35 Smaug A/B

2:01-2:18 Dragon Sickness

2:27-2:45 Dragon Sickness

2:34-2:46 Smaug A (first 2 notes)

2:46-3:01 Thorin's Theme

2:59-4:12 Dragon Sickness

BOFA 1-04 Guardians of the Three

0:00 - 0:12 of Guardians of the Three is "Sauron Revealed"

0:40 - 0:43 is Descending Thirds

0:46 - 0:53 is the latter half of The Necromancer version of Sauron's theme.

0:54 to 1:04 is The Threat of Dol Guldur

2:10 - 2:21 is "Sauron Revealed"

2:34-2:56 Sauron

2:34-2:56 Descending Thirds (Not Necromancer Variation!)

2:57-3:19 Rivendell Arpeggios

2:56-3:19 Gandalf (Fragmented)

3:19-3:26 Descending Thirds

3:26-3:37 Rivendell

3:42-4:04 Gandalf (Fragment)

3:42-4:14 Ringwraith Rhythms?

4:15-4:24 Gandalf

4:31-4:33 Sauron (Fragment)?

4:38-4:42 Ringwraiths (Fragment)?

4:50-4:54 Sauron (Fragment)?

4:54-4:58 Ringwraiths (Fragment)?

4:29-5:07 The Power of Galadriel

5:11-5:26 Threat of Dol Guldur

BOFA 1-05 The Ruins Of Dale

0:00-0:33 Lake-town/Bard

0:32-0:36 Erebor

0:40-1:02 Erebor (Martial variant)

1:45-2:13 The Shire

2:22-2:28 Preparing For War

2:29-2:44 Weakness and Redemption (Thranduil)

2:44-2:52 Preparing for War

3:24-3:39 Gandalf

BOFA 1-06 The Gathering Of The Clouds

0:09-0:47 The Woodland Realm

0:47-1:03 Weakness and Redemption (Thranduil)

1:07-1:16 Bard’s Family

1:16-1:36 Lake-town

1:43-2:03 Mirkwood (White Gems variation)

2:02-2:23 Dwarves Vs. Elves

2:29-2:39 Weakness and Redemption (Thranduil)

2:40-2:49 Dwarves Vs. Elves

2:49-3:25 The Siege of Erebor

3:39-3:58 Erebor

4:36-4:56 Negotiations

4:58-5:13 House of Durin

5:25-5:42 House of Durin

5:37-5:41 Erebor

5:42-5:52 Thorin

BOFA 1-07 Mithril

0:00-0:14 Mithril

0:16-0:28 Thorin

0:28-0:38 Erebor

0:47-2:01 Dragon Sickness

0:47-1:17 Smaug B

1:17-2:01 Smaug A

1:51-2:01 Thorin

2:09-2:18 House of Durin

2:18-2:29 Lake-town

2:29-2:50 House of Durin

2:50-2:59 Preparing For War

BOFA 1-08 Bred For War

0:00-0:11 Gundabad Rhythm

0:00-0:11 Gundabad March

0:17-0:34 Gundabad Rhythm

0:23-0:38 Gundabad March

0:38-0:44 The Woodland Realm

0:44-0:52 Erebor?

0:56-1:14 Descending Thirds (Azog Variation)

1:07-1:15 The Armies of the Orcs

1:18-1:40 The Camp of the Besiegers

1:39-1:47 Entering The Camp

1:47-2:01 Gundabad Rhythm

1:51-2:01 Gundabad March

2:33-2:56 Gundabad March

3:00-3:01 Tauriel

3:01-End Gundabad March

BOFA 1-09 A Thief In The Night

0:00-0:07 Thorin

0:32-0:38 The Woodland Realm

0:40-1:16 Bilbo Sneaky

1:16-1:26 Entering the Camp

1:26-1:49 The Arkenstone

2:08-2:30 House of Durin

3:20-3:45 The Woodland Realm

4:02-4:14 The Woodland Realm

BOFA 1-10 The Clouds Burst

0:20-0:50 Dragon Sickness

1:00-1:23 Smaug B

1:56-2:33 Footsteps of Doom

2:05-2:33 Thorin

2:47-3:29 Dain

3:36-3:43 The Woodland Realm

3:44-3:51 Dain

3:58-4:13 Erebor

BOFA 1-11 Battle For The Mountain

0:00-0:15 Unknown (Tauriel?)

0:14-0:25 Erebor

0:31-0:39 Unknown (Tauriel?)

0:49-0:55 Descending Thirds

0:57-1:01 The Armies of the Orcs

1:00-2:08 Dain

1:24-1:44 The House of Durin?

2:08-2:10 Descending Thirds

2:24-2:32 Descending Thirds

2:54-3:04 Cruelty of the Gundabad Orcs?

3:08-3:21 Bard’s Family

3:56-4:12 Bard’s Family

4:24-End Bard

Disc II

BOFA 2-01 The Darkest Hour

0:02-0:07 Gandalf The Grey

0:28-0:31 Bard’s Family

0:34-0:50 Dol Guldur Army (Or Goblins, Descending Thirds would be Dol Guldur right?)

1:11-2:06 House of Durin (fractured)

2:06-2:34 Thorin

2:23-2:34 Erebor

2:34-3:14 House of Durin (History of the Ring combo version)

4:11-5:07 Lake-town/Bard

5:07-5:34 Lake-town



BOFA 2-02 Sons Of Durin

0:02-0:25 House of Durin

0:25-0:55 Thorin

0:55-1:12 ????

1:12-1:26 Erebor

2:17-2:22 Thorin

2:50-3:01 Erebor

3:09-3:19 Thorin

3:19-3:33 Dol Goldur Army (Or Goblins)

3:49-3:54 The House of Durin

3:54-4:24 The Warg Riders



BOFA 2-03 The Fallen

0:49-1:21 Thorin

1:21-1:45 The Woodland Realm

1:45-1:58 Dwarves Vs. Elves

1:58-2:16 The Woodland Realm

2:45-2:50 The Woodland Realm

2:50-3:04 Dwarves Vs. Elves

3:24-3:36 Ravenhill/Thorin's Fate

3:50-3:57 The Shire

3:56-4:02 Ravenhill/Thorin's Fate?

4:22-4:32 Gondor in Decline?

4:38-4:47 To The Death (Erebor B Section?)



BOFA 2-04 Ravenhill

0:44-1:04 A War of Vengeance

1:07-1:25 Gundabad March

1:54-2:03 The Woodland Realm?

2:06-2:12 The Woodland Realm

2:17-2:28 Tauriel

2:49-2:56 The Woodland Realm

2:56-3:09 Descending Thirds

3:10-3:31 Heroics on Ravenhill

3:32-3:39 Tauriel and Kili

3:39-3:55 Tauriel (B Section)

3:55-4:02 Cruelty of the Gundabad Orcs? Doors of Durin?

4:17-4:24 Descending Thirds

4:35-5:11 Tauriel and Kili (Intro)



BOFA 2-05 To The Death

0:52-1:05 Legolas/Bolg

1:03-1:10 Cruelty of the Gundabad Orcs?

1:13-1:38 Threat of Dol Guldur?

1:47-1:50 Thorin

1:50-2:14 Heroics on Ravenhill

1:57-2:02 Erebor "in Ascension"?

2:35-2:41 Descending Thirds

2:42-2:55 Legolas/Bolg

2:44-2:55 The Woodland Realm

3:13-3:25 To The Death (Erebor B Section?)

3:38-3:45 Descending Thirds

3:50-3:58 Descending Thirds

4:10-4:15 Descending Thirds

4:22-4:38 Nature’s Reclamation

4:43-5:07 Eagle Rescue

5:16-5:55 Ravenhill/Thorin's Fate

6:26-6:31 Thorin

6:52-7:01 The Camp of the Besiegers

BOFA 2-06 Courage And Wisdom

1:50-2:11 Thorin

2:05-2:11 Erebor (B Section)

2:20-2:33 The Dignity of Dwarves/Moonlight

2:41-3:15 Tauriel and Kili

3:15-3:33 Weakness and Redemption (Thranduil)

3:31-3:39 Dwarves Vs. Elves.

3:40-3:50 The Fellowship of The Ring

3:54-4:07 The Woodland Realm

3:39-4:07 Erebor (B Section)

4:07-4:23 Tauriel (B Section)

4:23-4:29 Tauriel (B Section)



BOFA 2-07 The Return Journey

0:00-0:12 Gandalf Theme (B section)/Thorin's Theme

0:18-0:27 Thorin

1:01-1:28 Thorin

1:28-1:37 ???

1:37-1:52 Bilbo’s Adventure Theme

2:12-2:49 Bilbo's Adventure Theme

2:54-3:06 Gandalf The Grey

3:18-3:31 History of The Ring?

3:32-4:02 House of Durin (History of the Ring combo version?)

4:04-4:18 Bilbo’s Baggins/Took Theme



BOFA 2-08 There And Back Again

0:00-0:19 The Hobbit Outline

0:03-0:19 The Shire

0:37-1:05 Bilbo’s Sneaky Theme

1:55-2:12 Bilbo's Adventure and ???

2:22-2:51 The Shire (Modified)

2:58-3:12 The History Of The Ring (almost)

3:12-3:40 The History Of The Ring

3:42-4:20 The Shire



BOFA 2-09 The Last Goodbye



BOFA 2-10 Ironfoot

0:00-2:04 Dain

2:22-2:30 Girion

3:01-4:01 Bard The Leader

4:00-4:28 Lake-town Chase

4:33-5:02 Lake-town/Bard

5:06-5:33 Lake-town/Bard

5:33-6:11 Lake-town



BOFA 2-11 Dragon Sickness

0:22-0:29 The Arkenstone

0:29-0:34 Thorin

0:34-0:39 Smaug A

0:39-0:45 Thorin

0:45-0:51 The Arkenstone

0:57-1:11 Smaug A

1:13-1:24 The Arkenstone

1:24-1:41 Lake-town

1:41-1:52 Thorin

2:03-2:14 Bard The Leader

2:31-2:50 Gundabad March

2:42-2:50 Gundabad Rhythm

3:01-3:07 Tauriel/Kili

3:23-3:40 Lake-town/Bard

BOFA 2-12 Thrain

0:27-0:36 The Threat of Mordor

0:38-0:40 Erebor

1:20-1:49 Thrain's Theme (Harp phrase)

1:24-1:49 Erebor

1:49-2:14 Dragon-Sickness

1:51-2:14 Smaug B

2:26-3:01 Mordor Skip-beat

2:33-3:01 Descending Thirds

2:46-3:01 Sauron

[gkgyver 1,645]

that music for the Nine didnt sound entirely tracked

or at least I remember Only hearing the sopranos, and I dont remember if there was a soprano-only version of that theme in DOS

The choir was recorded separately, so it would be no problem using the soprano recording only I think.

Or Shore wrote a fully orchestrated, unreleased statement, and Jackson muted the orchestra in the editing room.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[MedigoScan 324]

may 2018 answer our question

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,345]

BOFA 2-10 Ironfoot

0:00-2:04 Dain

2:22-2:30 Girion

3:01-4:01 Bard The Leader

4:00-4:28 Lake-town Chase

4:33-5:02 Lake-town/Bard

5:06-5:33 Lake-town/Bard

5:33-6:11 Lake-town

Correction to the Ironfoot:

4:00-4:28 Lake-town Chase is actually Shire theme variation (in retrogrades) and this particular phrase can be traced to the An Unexpected Party (2:24- and again 3:23-) in AUJ.

But, the latter end of it can be heard when Bard is escaping Braga in DOS (The Hunters 2:24-2:55)

The Return Journey:

- 00:26 - 00:40 features the melody heard in The Hunters (for Thorin's "end in fire" speech), as was pointed out by gkgyver (and later Fal). Erebor In Ascension (as Fal suggested) sounds like a good name for that theme.

The melody you guys are talking about is just a manipulated portion of Thorin's theme (compare 6:46 of The Hunters to 2:23 of My Dear Frodo)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,345]

the bit at 02:23 in My Dear Frodo sounds nothing like the melody found in The Hunters.

Yes it does.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9c2IwUnA5V0RQZU0/view?usp=sharing

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[MedigoScan 324]

I cant even tell anything from that clip, Faleel

but BB does have a point about the Gathering of the Clouds bit

2019 or 2020, more like it... If we're lucky!

Hobbit CR discussions can't really begin for another year or two … and everyone is still coming down from work the OSTs right now anyway!

https://twitter.com/DougAdamsMusic/status/550370992020021249

I am taking that 'or two' in stride

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[MedigoScan 324]

ah but he technically said it in 2014

so loopholes!

<.<

[Faleel 5,345]

Have we figured out what theme this is yet?

3:21-3:27 Inside Information

0:25-0:37 Warg-scouts

0:33-0:46 Out of the Frying Pan

[MedigoScan 324]

I dont think Inside Information belongs in that group

too many notes

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[KK 3,307]

It's just a different section of the Warg theme. Inside Information doesn't match up with those other two instances. And the Gondor Reborn comparison (or more easily the Minas Tirith theme) is looking waaay too much into a coincidence.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Faleel 5,345]

The SE of Inside Information at that time is just chords playing a rhythm.

The four notes at 3:20-3:23 of Inside Information are the same as at 0:22-0:25 of Warg-scouts.

I dont think Inside Information belongs in that group

too many notes

Ever heard of a variation?

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Faleel 5,345]

The SE of Inside Information at that time is just chords playing a rhythm.

The four notes at 3:20-3:23 of Inside Information are the same as at 0:22-0:25 of Warg-scouts

They sound like action variants of the Erebor theme to me.

The example I posted is ACBD, Erebor is AC AD AE.

[KK 3,307]

Like I said, it's really just another section of the Warg set-piece material.

The same intervals appearing in Inside Information is another coincidence.

[Faleel 5,345]

The MKTAA (Mikko/Kalaisan Theme Award Academy) strikes again!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[KK 3,307]

The MKTAA (Mikko/Kalaisan Theme Award Academy) strikes again!

We shall fight the forces of over-analysis and over-interpretation to our very last breath! While maintaining the virtue and merit of valid new thematic discoveries of course!