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Does "The Adventures of Mutt" work?


tpigeon

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Again, i know that a footchase scene is not the same as a vehicle chase. We are talking about musical propperness of supposedly tense scenes.

Neither the main villain nor the magical relic appear in the Basket Chase and it is also a smaller scale action scene, hence the overall lighter tone of the music.

Therefore neither the nazi motif or ark theme appear in it, so what? :P

Now, First, Indy kills the arab sword man more or less in coolblood, and they even mock it using the same lighthearted music in TOD.

Luke, henchmen are discarded with no value placed on their lives in every action movie. This is totally irrelevent.

Its not irrelevant to my point. I just wanted to note that Raiders is a fun movie, not one to take seriously in every single scene, as KOTCS seems to need to.

Second, Marion dies.

I'm so glad you mentioned this as it is even further evidence that the Basket Chase is a better scored scene. The music, with its playful tone, tricks us on an emotional level. Here we are enjoying a fun romp on the streets of Cairo and suddenly the love interest dies, or so we are supposed to believe. The music gets quite serious as Indy confronts the truck and Marion is believed to be dead.

And Mutt music just points us that 'Anything goes' in the indy Universe. That was the point of the TOD unvelievable antics.

If you really want to make comparisons, compare Jungle Chase to Desert Chase and Steal Beast.

I did (with Mine car and belly)

Do you mean that if the movie is critically acclaimed, the score by definition, works, regardless of its quality?

No. I was simply making a nonsense comment, in a similar vein to this one:

It works because it was filmed 28 years ago, and it is not a scene of 2008's KOTCS.

In these forums, i still have to see proof from someone of old that any sequel post 1980s will ever had any good qualities in it. Most of the new films flaw can be rebated by equal flaws in the older movies. The only difference is that they were released many, many years ago.

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I never found Williams' atonal action music to sound like 'just fairly random notes'
I'm absolutely convinced that the notes are NOT random at all and actually very carefully chosen and it does work to create the atmosphere of action.

However, without any sort of melody that I can follow, I just find such music fairly unengaging.

Sometimes I do like it and sometimes I don't, but on the whole I prefer more clearly defined melodic action music.

I have no musical knowledge at all, so I can't appreciate music very well on a technical level.

I can just judge what I hear. :P

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I noticed "A Whirl Through Academe" the first time I saw the film, before I had the OST, and it did sound kinda like random musical babbling to me. It took a few more listens for it to sink in, really. Now I quite like the cue, though I wouldn't put it on a list of my top favorites from the saga.

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In these forums, i still have to see proof from someone of old that any sequel post 1980s will ever had any good qualities in it.

Many dislike The Lost World, yet I think it's a really fun and well made sequel, always have done. The score is quite suitable too. I like RotS, flaws included. I like the rebooted Batman series.

Truth is, the older films you refer to are simply better films than their more recent, obvious comparisons. There is no conspiracy on the board, there is just a small contingent of die-hards here who can't stand to read harsh criticism of their beloved franchises.

Incidentally, I really like Whirl Through The Academe, as heard in the movie. The music works because the scene it accompanied works; unlike almost anything found during the Jungle Chase. The former is actually a well executed action sequence, the latter makes a mockery of Indiana Jones.

Of course we strongly disagree and that is fine by me.

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Ted, I like this track, and it worked for me.

this is tenative, as Henry Buck and richuk have not yet approved this comment for me.

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The stand alone concert piece " The Adventures of Mutt" is easily some of Williams' best music from his Indy scores. And that is saying a lot. As for the utilization of some of it for "The Jungle Chase":

The scene works well. The score works very well. And it is certainly very appropriate, -all of it, and I'd go as far as to say especially the music accompanying Mutt's antics.

Grave realism, real peril, etc., are not of principal dramatic importance in these kind of Indy set-pieces. The Indy films are genre films, and virtuoso genre films, meaning they are excecuted playfully, tongue-in-cheek. It would be completely silly to underscore Mutt's action with music of a more serious tone.

I find it generally questionable that whenever someone expresses enthusiasm on behalf of a more recent Williams score, he or she is immediately accused of "fanboyism".

Shouldn't we be allowed to be grateful for all of the wonderful music contained in KotCS?

KotCS is a marvellous score that couldn't have been penned by anyone but John Williams. Simply because his technical, musical standard is unequalled among current film composers.

I think nostalgia clouds the perception of quite a few posters here, and that is completely OK. Sentimental, surely, but very understandable.

But: It is just a film score.

For a fun movie.

And the music is brilliantly written. That should be more than enough.

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I for one honestly appreciate your contribution on this, but I think this boils down to one fundamental difference between two distinct camps: Those who enjoy the movie, and those who do not.

I do not question the obvious technical merits of the music, but I do question its usage and here I believe JW missed the mark, moreso than any other time in his career. Perhaps it was even a first.

Either way, it is nice to see you here again Marcus. You always say something worthy of a read :P

It would be completely silly to underscore Mutt's action with music of a more serious tone.

I disagree. Contrast is a powerful thing (See: LotR action scenes). In fact I believe better suited music may have even had a shot at saving the scene from "controversy" entirely.

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It would be completely silly to underscore Mutt's action with music of a more serious tone.

I disagree. Contrast is a powerful thing (See: LotR action scenes). In fact I believe better suited music may have even had a shot at saving the scene from "controversy" entirely.

I suppose KOTCS called for a dramatic tense choral Dark side beckons, Duel of the Fates or Battle fo the Heroes -esque sword duel music?

That would be more unfitting that what we have.

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I suppose KOTCS called for a dramatic tense choral Dark side beckons, Duel of the Fates or Battle fo the Heroes -esque sword duel music?

Don't be ridiculous. C'mon man, leave the sarcasm out of it. It makes you sound bitter.

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Actually I wanted to give KotKS a second chance, bought it on dvd and started to watch it the other day. However I didn't get to the Chase scene. The movie felt so dreadful and absurd it totally spoiled my evening :s This is no Indiana Jones.

The music I must add is great, especially the action scherzo's! The album also gets more interesting with every new listen.

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I noticed "A Whirl Through Academe" the first time I saw the film, before I had the OST, and it did sound kinda like random musical babbling to me. It took a few more listens for it to sink in, really. Now I quite like the cue, though I wouldn't put it on a list of my top favorites from the saga.

I definitely would.

This is one of the very best cues, ever. My only regret is that it's kinda short... but on the other hand, I think this is one of the very few cues that's heard in the movie completely unedited.

This shows me that JW is still capable of writing top-notch action music. I give this track a 5/5.

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I do like the weird trumpet motif that runs through the cue, and I especially enjoy the academic-sounding melody that comes in around 2:40. (It's such a fully-formed musical idea that it almost sounds like a quote from another piece of music or something...anyone have any ideas?) But the overall organization of the piece doesn't do it for me, and a lot of it feels like filler as far as I'm concerned. There's something about action tracks like "The Fist Fight/The Flying Wing" (I hate that title!) that makes every moment feel crucial, necessary, and fun, whereas I find myself wanting to skip to the "good parts" in this KOTCS cue.

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I do like the weird trumpet motif that runs through the cue, and I especially enjoy the academic-sounding melody that comes in around 2:40. (It's such a fully-formed musical idea that it almost sounds like a quote from another piece of music or something...anyone have any ideas?) But the overall organization of the piece doesn't do it for me, and a lot of it feels like filler as far as I'm concerned. There's something about action tracks like "The Fist Fight/The Flying Wing" (I hate that title!) that makes every moment feel crucial, necessary, and fun, whereas I find myself wanting to skip to the "good parts" in this KOTCS cue.

Um yes, Williams is quoting some other work whose name is eluding me now.

Brhams academic something?

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Haha, like "The Basket Game" is the same as "The Jungle Chase" because both scenes are comedic. Of course not. There are many kinds of comedy. If "The Basket Game" was like "The Jungle Chase," instead of shooting the Arab swordsman, Indy would have had a full fledged sword duel with him, full of impossible stunts. Then he would have tripped and fallen into a townsperson, who in turn would have tripped and hit another townsperson and so on and so on until a domino effect took place and crushed the swordsman. That's the George Lucas of 2008 for you.

Don't drift from the point. I'm not saying that those two scenes are similar in their content. The point is that both scenes should have been scores with tensión and instead they get lighthearted music. Period.

And sorry but your comparison is faulty. Dont you remember the original Shooted version of the sword duel? It was even more stupidly comical, with a shoptender using the sword slashes to cut his fruits and etc (something from 1941 i think). We got the final version because (they always says this) Harrison had malarai and was not in the mood of re-shooting. In the end, Harrison's scene is better, but if he had not been i'll we would have ended with the original, and that was 1980 Spielberg.

We would have gotten a bad scene... but we didn't. :lol: (Although, given the Spielberg and Lucas of 1980 I wouldn't have been surprised if it had worked.) I don't get that "The Basket Game" isn't tense, anyway. It's funny but it isn't light. There's a very manic, taunting quality about it, and obviously at the end it turns deadly serious. "The Adventures of Mutt," however, is a very celebratory, heroic sort of piece.

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We would have gotten a bad scene... but we didn't. :) (Although, given the Spielberg and Lucas of 1980 I wouldn't have been surprised if it had worked

You know it was post-1941 Spielberg. He may had gone into oblivion if the scene had been shooted like that... :lol:

"The Adventures of Mutt," however, is a very celebratory, heroic sort of piece.

But isnt it scoring a heroic sword fight? Its like 'Mutt's first very adventure' (remember 'Adventures of mutt' only score those sword duel scenes) Its also funny and lighthearted and thats why it fits the groin-joke too.

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"The Adventures of Mutt," however, is a very celebratory, heroic sort of piece.

But isnt it scoring a heroic sword fight? Its like 'Mutt's first very adventure' (remember 'Adventures of mutt' only score those sword duel scenes) Its also funny and lighthearted and thats why it fits the groin-joke too.

Try layering "The Adventures of Mutt" over the "Basket Game" scene in Raiders and see what happens.

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But isnt it scoring a heroic sword fight? Its like 'Mutt's first very adventure' (remember 'Adventures of mutt' only score those sword duel scenes) Its also funny and lighthearted and thats why it fits the groin-joke too.
Nothing can fit those groin jokes. Those were just - plain - stupid.

I personally Indiana Jones should be above jokes of that particular level of stupid-ness.

I'd much rather have nuclear bombs, flying fridges, Tarzan money scenes and prairie dogs, but NO groin jokes.

Definitly the lowest point in the film as far as I'm concerned. At that point, for those couple of seconds that it lasts,

the movie just stops being an Indiana Jones movie even in the remotest sense of the term.

BTW: This comment is not at all directed at you, Luke. I just wanted to comment on those groin jokes a bit further.

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Well i prefered the storyboraded version of the groin thing. Irina was going to knee kick mutt while dueling. And mutt opened appart with the sword irina's top bottons so he would be distracted and work on her advantage.

It would have made much more sense, especially with the 'sexual' reference irina says.

PD: dont Marion, Willie or Shortround kick some henchman in the groin?

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PD: dont Marion, Willie or Shortround kick some henchman in the groin?

No offence, but that's going along the same lines of 'Well, the OT has bad dialogue too.'

Besides, the addition of a quick groin kick in a fight scene bears no comparison to having a character continuously hit in the groin while doing the splits across two moving vehicles. It's the equivalent of comparing BASIC INSTINCT's interrogation scene with hard-core pornography.

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PD: dont Marion, Willie or Shortround kick some henchman in the groin?

No offence, but that's going along the same lines of 'Well, the OT has bad dialogue too.'

Besides, the addition of a quick groin kick in a fight scene bears no comparison to having a character continuously hit in the groin while doing the splits across two moving vehicles. It's the equivalent of comparing BASIC INSTINCT's interrogation scene with hard-core pornography.

There are groin kicks or not?

I know its not the same, but saying groin jokes make a scene completely un-Indiana Jones maybe is too much too.

And definately, The Prequels have Bad dialogue, as had the OT. One reason why the OT is not critisized has been one of my points in this discussion.

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PD: dont Marion, Willie or Shortround kick some henchman in the groin?

No offence, but that's going along the same lines of 'Well, the OT has bad dialogue too.'

Besides, the addition of a quick groin kick in a fight scene bears no comparison to having a character continuously hit in the groin while doing the splits across two moving vehicles. It's the equivalent of comparing BASIC INSTINCT's interrogation scene with hard-core pornography.

What about the rhino horn going through the roof in LC?

And FYI, the original Indy films had bad dialouge, that is part of their charm.

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What about the rhino horn going through the roof in LC?

What about it? Again, it happens for like two seconds and is a genuinely funny moment. It isn't thrown in our face for minutes on end.

And FYI, the original Indy films had bad dialouge, that is part of their charm.

Not really. Actually, those movies had some pretty great dialogue. RAIDERS, particularly. Hell, I'm not even criticising KOTCS for its dialogue, that was more a criticism of the SW prequel argument.

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Raiders was mostly perfect in terms of dialogue. TOD was frequently terrible, and TLC was somewhere in between. KOTCS is unfortunately average in terms of writing in the Indy saga.

And I thought the horn-through-the-roof stunt was at least as goofy as the flowers-to-the-crotch. They last roughly the same amount of time, and the horn moment is more comedically scored, with more emphasis on young Indy's "funny" reaction. Neither adds much to the saga for me, but I'm not losing sleep over either.

EDIT: And I've never been charmed by the shortcomings of the Indy movies any more than I'm charmed by shortcomings of today's movies. I have no qualms about preferring KOTCS over TOD, for instance. (Film, not score.)

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What about the rhino horn going through the roof in LC?

What about it? Again, it happens for like two seconds and is a genuinely funny moment. It isn't thrown in our face for minutes on end.

True. It isn't a good moment in the scene, but it doesn't take away from the Indiana Jones experience.

Raiders was mostly perfect in terms of dialogue. TOD was frequently terrible, and TLC was somewhere in between. KOTCS is unfortunately average in terms of writing in the Indy saga.

And I thought the horn-through-the-roof stunt was at least as goofy as the flowers-to-the-crotch. They last roughly the same amount of time, and the horn moment is more comedically scored, with more emphasis on young Indy's "funny" reaction. Neither adds much to the saga for me, but I'm not losing sleep of either.

I agree with this. I would probably prefer to not have either of them, but they don't ruin the film/scene.

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And FYI, the original Indy films had bad dialouge, that is part of their charm.

Okay, I just don't get this bad = good thing. Did the original movies have silly, unrealistic dialogue? Sometimes, yes. I don't think this sort of dialogue is "bad" the way "Somewhere up there your grandpa is laughing" is bad, however.

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Okay, I just don't get this bad = good thing. Did the original movies have silly, unrealistic dialogue? Sometimes, yes. I don't think this sort of dialogue is "bad" the way "Somewhere up there your grandpa is laughing" is bad, however.

You're right...TOD was in a whole 'nother league of badness.

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But ToD is crazy. All the "bad" dialogue is uttered in the context of shocking the audience. KotCS throws such lines at us in very serious or sentimental situations. It's not the best script ever, that's for sure, but I don't find it bad at all. Except the "nocturnal activities" scene doesn't come off too well because at that point Willie's character is still very unlikable.

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Not really...all the bad dialogue in TOD is just bad dialogue. :P Don't get me wrong, KOTCS had some definite problems in the writing and in the delivery, as far as I'm concerned. (In all seriousness, "I thought you were my friend" had me totally convinced that the whole betrayal thing was all a rouse, and that Indy knew exactly what he was doing. It just sounded that insincere.) But my point is that KOTCS did nothing more than continue the decades-old tradition of creating inferior sequels to Raiders of the Lost Ark. All three sequels - okay, two sequels and a prequel - have their strengths and considerable weaknesses. Since I expected nothing more from KOTCS, I enjoyed it for what it was and didn't shed a tear. =)

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Interesting, Datameister. I thought Ford did pretty well with "I thought we were friends, Mac." Nice moment, IMO.

But ToD is crazy. All the "bad" dialogue is uttered in the context of shocking the audience. KotCS throws such lines at us in very serious or sentimental situations. It's not the best script ever, that's for sure, but I don't find it bad at all. Except the "nocturnal activities" scene doesn't come off too well because at that point Willie's character is still very unlikable.

It's interesting that you mention the nocturnal activities scene, Henry, because the whole Indy-Willie dynamic really bugged me for a little while, until recently when I realized that TOD is the most purely connected to the '30s adventure serial roots of the series. Thus, the more shallow nature of the relationship and the rollercoaster thrill ride pace. Similarly, KOTCS started to make much more sense when I realized that they really were going for a '50s jungle quest movie with a dash of sci-fi thrown in. Now, this doesn't excuse the absence of the higher dose of seriousness/depth/tension that the other films had going for them (the grandpa line could've been Indy and Mutt's "I thought I'd lost you, boy!" scene, but instead we got more levity, which I agree was wrong), but I just enjoy the positive elements of the film too much to just trash the film and put it in the same class of failure as the prequels--I can't put it even near that close. I flat out enjoy the sucker, despite its real flaws.

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And FYI, the original Indy films had bad dialouge, that is part of their charm.

Okay, I just don't get this bad = good thing. Did the original movies have silly, unrealistic dialogue? Sometimes, yes. I don't think this sort of dialogue is "bad" the way "Somewhere up there your grandpa is laughing" is bad, however.

"Indiana Jones....always knew some day you'd come walking back through my door. I never doubted it. Something made it inevitable."

Now honestly, would anybody actually say something like that? No, it's melodramatic and over the top. But it works in an Indy film, because of the style of the films. They're made to be fun to watch--anything else (subplots, character development, themes, etc.) are secondary priorities. That's why everything in Indy is over the top, also known as "cheesy." Can you imagine the scene if we get a dramatic shadow of Indy, Marion turns around, and says: "Hey, it's been a while!" It might serve the story better by being more realistic, but it will make the scene itself less interesting and more boring to watch. It's not just a bad=good blanket statment--what would be bad for some films is good for Indy films (at least in this aspect).

The reason the "Somewhere your grandpa is laughing" line is bad is because it's out of character. It transforms Indy from a daring adventurer into a chuckling old man.

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Just to elaborate on my opinion on the KotCS groin joke, I wouldn't even have liked it if it was just once, but this was repeated.

However, I admit that the rhino horn is pretty stupid as well. Though in that case it actualy served some sort of story purpose.

Your Indy suddenly realises the danger he's in and then does everything to get out of that situation.

The KotCS groin jokes are just... there... to give the audience a very cheap laugh.

BTW: I don't mind the ToD kicking in the groin at all. After all, that would actually be a fairly smart thing to do when opposed to a huge evil enemy.

I actually watched Temple of Doom yesterday and I really love that film. It had me grinning like an idiot pretty much all the way through.

Apart from the sacrifice scenes, of course. But it's a brilliantly fun movie. Completely over-the-top in all departments, but it's great fun.

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I for one honestly appreciate your contribution on this, but I think this boils down to one fundamental difference between two distinct camps: Those who enjoy the movie, and those who do not.

I do not question the obvious technical merits of the music, but I do question its usage and here I believe JW missed the mark, moreso than any other time in his career. Perhaps it was even a first.

Well, since you already said that the music doesn't work because the scene doesn't work, how could you ever claim to be unbiased? If the Academy scene worked for you, as did the music, then you would have said the Jungle chase music worked if you liked that sequence more.

Instead of thinking of what the scene isn't (Desert Chase), why not enjoy it for what it is? Yes it is goofy, but there's a place for goofy in this world. I can totally "feel your pain" on this one, but I'm more greatful than disappointed with it. Not every scene has to be classic perfection, and a little Lucas infamy is always good for some laughs. I'll never forget how entertaining it was to see those CG monkeys and Mutt getting hit in the groin. It is just so audacious and irreverent to the whole series. And they lied about it too, saying it would all be physical stunts and FX. Totally hilarious.

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But ToD is crazy. All the "bad" dialogue is uttered in the context of shocking the audience. KotCS throws such lines at us in very serious or sentimental situations. It's not the best script ever, that's for sure, but I don't find it bad at all. Except the "nocturnal activities" scene doesn't come off too well because at that point Willie's character is still very unlikable.

I think the nocturnal activities scene works. Or at least the spanish translation.

I'm actually watching KOTCS now and some of the music placement is awful. The placement of the Flight From Peru homage when he's swinging around the warehouse? Terrible.

Terrible? For Pete's sake, It's the raiders march.

Its not like they threw there the young indy theme, for example.

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Terrible? For Pete's sake, It's the raiders march.

Its not like they threw there the young indy theme, for example.

It's a misplaced version of The Raiders March that just seems plastered behind the action as if it was in a trailer. That rendition sounds less like a sensible attempt to scoring that scene, and more like someone's YouTube video "I put Flight From Peru over a scene from KOTCS LOL".

It's just utterly lazy.

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The rhino horn on the circus train is a near-miss, to me this is not the same as an actual shot to the groin which is always followed up with the comedic reaction to the hit. These are two different things in my book, isn't there a similar groin near-miss at the beginning of KotCS during the opening fight scene. There is nothing wrong with either of those, they just demonstrate the danger Indy is in. In TOD, Shorty kicks the guard in the groin but it is in the middle of a big fight scene. It actually makes sense for someone small to kick there a large opponent there. Also, the movie doesn't stop and acknowledge the kick by showing the guard holding his groin and moaning or something. The action doesn't miss a beat and just keeps going. Some of you need to learn the different between a touch of humor and outright silliness, actually Spielberg and Lucas need to learn the difference as well.

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It's distracting and dissapointing.

The first big fanfaric statement of Raiders March is a re-use.

I hate that it's not a "back to action" statement -- it's more of a "what? no, Indy never was out of action" statement.

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