206 replies to this topic

[Demodex]

I don't hear any edits when I listen to TPM:UE.

[ymenard]

Just search the board demodex, far since the release have we talked about it's mediocrity here on the various boards... Nobody was ever able to defend TPM:UE, 'cause it's impossible.

There are edits everywhere, by the _hundreds_ It's impossible to keep a correct tempo all throughout the two CD's because of all the pitched up, pitched down, stretched up or cut out notes, passages, instruments, etc... It's ear grating, because you know that Johnny would NEVER write such passages, it's against the normality of classical writing. And if you listen to the "other" alternative versions, you'll understand that a nicely done version like the RCA/Victor (giving us non-edited versions conducted by Johnny himself) would be amazing and really put the score on the same level than the original trilogy.

It's a fact man not an opinion. You will understand someday!

[king mark]

I don't hear any edits when I listen to TPM:UE.

You can start with "Anakin Takes Off in his Spaceship"

[Henry Buck]

The sound quality of the TPM UE is excellent, and it certainly surpasses that of the "remastered" OT scores.

[GoodMusician]

Not to be rude... and as much as I agree with many of the sentements/resentments here... I think we should perhaps get back on topic...

If the rhumor is to be believed, that they are indeed selling a box set of all 6 films scores, It would be great... the fan boys dream... but alas, I believe it to be just a dream. So lets examine this:

In my efforts with Episode I, I have found that... there is almost no "Good way" to present a score.

You can do it "as recorded," but then you loose the transitions that John Williams INTENDS to be there... such as in TPM between "Main Title" and "Arrival at Naboo" or "It was a Sith" and the track I call "Crisis on Naboo." (right after Qui-Gon is attacked as they leave Tatooine and then the camera jumps to a night shot of the naboo palace in Theed)

Those transitions are MEANT to be there. That is TRULY the intention of John Williams (if you are going to TRULY go by his intentions)... But if you present everything, and as recorded, you loose those.

You want to go by JW's intention, then that's another option... and a possible one... but then you get the OT's SE's. People complain not only about the sound on them, but that they don't preserve the clean endings...

Then you have the other option which is present it as it is in the film as the UE did...but then you have all the edits. That takes time to clean them, and then you have the problem of people complaining lol.

Then you have the original albums which are really more like Concert suites that, instead of being arranged and recorded for the album as they were back when John Williams started (Goodbye Mr. Chips, Checkmate etc.), these are created by using the film recordings and editing them together to create "mock" concert suites.

So, now when you go to release the music... you're presented with a problem.... Just how do you do it and keep the integrity and keep the fanbase happy.

If you include too much music, no one will buy it because it'll become $40 quite easily... but if you don't include it all... you have people complaining, but a bigger profit.

The Episode I edits I've done easily fit on 2 disks... but with all the alternates and first runs and maybe some interviews--while still perserving some flow to the cd's (ie: not putting all 6 DOTF recordings one after another) you easily get 4 disks...that's ONE score...

So Episode I is like 4 disks... Episode II is about 3... Episode III is at least 2... and then the OT's have already been released to a "satisfactory" release... (another 6 disks)... you get a 15 DISK BOX SET! (And even with just the OSTs you get a 12 disk! That's still... HUGE!... that would easily be $100+

And what I mean by "satisfactory" towards the OT's, I mean "satisfactory" by GL standards. As much as I wish he would, he's not gonna call in John Williams and the LSO and re-record the complete score, altearnates and all, for the ROTJ... which would be my DREAM... to have it all... no edits... no missing segments...

They arn't going to do that... and I doubt they've found the masters again... So asking for more from the OT is beating a dead horse... there really isn't any more...

It's the Prequils that will get the most attention...

I just feel this rhumor is, sadly, a fanboy's dream. I could imagine a Prequils box set, with complete scores of each... but not a Saga edition (atleast, not with anything except the OSTs).

[king mark]

I don't think we'll even get expanded AotC and RotS.

k.M.

[skyy38]

What I mean is a perfect sequence of music,IN ORDER,that starts at the beginning of ESB and concludes with Han Solo entering the rebel base on Hoth WITHOUT the "other stuff",which could be put elsewhere on the album.

Oh you want the chopped hacked version ala TPM Ultimate Edition instead of the original complete cues as Williams wrote and intended them to be.

What Williams wrote and intended and what wound up on the final version of the film are two distinct and separate issues.I don't mind extras and outtakes and alternate cues but PLEASE don't insult my intelligence(not you mark ) by goofing up the chronological order of the tracks for the sake of "variety",which was the chief reason given for the sequencing order of the Star Wars ST when it was first released in '77.It was f*cking CONFUSING when I was listening to one part of the "movie" and then all of a sudden you're pushed forward to another section just for the sake of "variety".I mean where the hell was the first 5 seconds of "Battle of Yavin" for petes sake? I was always wondering about that up until the SEST was released.

Empires problems date back to vinyl also.After the crawl and the brief reading of the Imperial motif,it goes right into something totally foreign instead of the gentle, whistling,strings and winds probe droid music.And what do we get 17 years later on CD?THE SAME DAMN THING!Give me a break!

I will figure out the timecode for the parts that I am talking about lotman.

It's the Prequils that will get the most attention...

I just feel this rhumor is, sadly, a fanboy's dream. I could imagine a Prequils box set........

Is "prequils" what you take before "Nyquil"?






LOL

[king mark]

Empires problems date back to vinyl also.After the crawl and the brief reading of the Imperial motif,it goes right into something totally foreign instead of the gentle, whistling,strings and winds  probe droid music.And what do we get 17 years later on CD?THE SAME DAMN THING!Give me a break!
.

I agree about the probe droid landing music.I've wanted to re-edit that where it is in the film.At least we have the cue on the SE.

K.M.

[Henry Buck]

Actually, skyy38 is right. There are several cues misplaced on the ESB and RotJ SEs (apparently, nobody thought we'd notice?). These include "The Probe Droid," an alternative section of "Carbon Freeze," (it's simply mixed in and follows the film version), the alternative "Han Solo Returns" is mixed into "Luke Confronts Jabba," the film version of "The Emperor Arrives" is pasted before "The Lightsaber," and the alternative version of "Funeral Pyre for a Jedi," follows the film version.

Anything I missed?

[king mark]

At least they are there

K.M.

[Indiana_Fett]

At least they are there

K.M.

I agree.

[Chris ChrusherComix]

Me three.

I am hoping that it is a proper representation of complete scores for all 6 films. I understand this is difficult on TPM because he supposedly scored and re-scored the final reel 2 or 3 times... but I believe it can be done on 2 CDs. look... most of us have made respectable 2-CD edits concerning TPM, so there is no reason to believe that all of the people at Sony or Lucasfilm will be too incompetant to do it. Especially if they've heard one of ours or they are a knowledgable insider.

Extras from all 6 scores could probably fit on 1 CD if you cared (but if we had well-done 2-CD sets to all 6 scores, extras would just be a cherry on top of a massive sundae, and not totally essential). But if we had 1 true representation in this boxed set, then I don't think that it is impossible.

I, for one, will only buy it if it IS NOT a re-package of the SEs and UE AND it has unreleased music. Because if it is, it would be the holy grail of my CD collection.

Any repackage of the UE would be a massive slap in the face of the fans - AND a huge public relations mistake - considering the stink we all raised when it was originally released. The OCT is well-represented when you combine the original albums, the Anthology boxed set and the SEs - so it would also seem like piling on points when the game is 142-3. So a repackage of the SEs would be a waste of time and also a waste of money in terms of packaging and advertising.

Considering these things... if you ask me... it will be an all-new boxed set. My only question is.... is it all 6 scores? Or only the OCT?

[king mark]

I'll be happy if it only has the unreleased music from AotC and RotS.I can live with a homemade edited TPM and without the few seconds of music missing from Empire and Jedi.The unreleased bits from TPM have shown up time and time again in many videogames over the years.I'm doubting there are completely new and unheard cues from TPM left.

I do think there are completely new and unheard cues from AotC and RotS that didn't even make it into the film.


K.M.

[Trent Bennett]

I'll be happy if it only has the unreleased music from AotC and RotS.I can live with a homemade edited TPM and without the few seconds of music missing from Empire and Jedi.The unreleased bits from TPM have shown up time and time again in many videogames over the years.I'm doubting there are completely new and unheard cues from TPM left.


K.M.

Indeed. I also doubt there is any new unheard music from TPM left. I think we pretty much have everything from The Phantom Menace now.

We can only speculate at this point what this box set will be (if it's true, which I think it is). We only have just over 9 months until the offical 30th Anniversary for Star Wars and for Celebration IV. Hopefully by then we'll get more information.

Edit: I am honestly hoping it will be the original intended editions for the Prequels for this supposed box set. Only time will tell when we get more solid offical information.

[Chris ChrusherComix]

I agree. It is only acceptable if it has expanded Clones and Sith scores. It is true that the previous releases of the OCT and TPM leave somehing more to be desired... but Clones and Sith are the only two really lacking.

BTW, Trent... I'm still waiting for your edit of Sith. Been waiting since last Feburary I think!

[king mark]

Well there is one cue from TPM i wonder about.What music originally scored The Gungans Retreat,since that cue on the UE was proven to go in the pod race(it's Anakin Defeats Sebulba in the OST and there was a "making of" documentary matching that cue to the end of the pod race).I'm wondering if this is the only remaining cue we haven't heard..or has this been elucidated since I last wondered about it...

K.M.

[Mr. Breathmask]

I'm actually wondering if I would run out straight away and buy a 12-disc set, if I already have half of those.
But they'll probably release the scores seperately as well, just like they did with the 2004 re-release of the OT.

[Goldsmithfan]

Actually, skyy38 is right. There are several cues misplaced on the ESB and RotJ SEs (apparently, nobody thought we'd notice?). These include "The Probe Droid," an alternative section of "Carbon Freeze," (it's simply mixed in and follows the film version), the alternative "Han Solo Returns" is mixed into "Luke Confronts Jabba," the film version of "The Emperor Arrives" is pasted before "The Lightsaber," and the alternative version of "Funeral Pyre for a Jedi," follows the film version.

Anything I missed?

The film version of "The Emperor Arrives" right before "The Lightsaber" is the only thing that really distracts me. And man, does it distract the hell out of me. Couldn't the alternates have all waited until the end of the discs???

[John Crichton]

While I also think that we have most/all of TPM now, I can't help but wonder if there's bits from Williams original Battle of Naboo still out there that haven't seen the light of day yet. The final pieces of the puzzle, so to speak.

[Henry Buck]

Nobody really knows how the cue "Laser Fight March" ends. And, of course, the film version of "Augie's Great Municipal Band" is unreleased.

KM, there's a short action cue that is probably "The Gungans Retreat." It's not nearly as long as the film scene, but it's something.

[Mark Olivarez]

Actually, skyy38 is right. There are several cues misplaced on the ESB and RotJ SEs (apparently, nobody thought we'd notice?). These include "The Probe Droid," an alternative section of "Carbon Freeze," (it's simply mixed in and follows the film version), the alternative "Han Solo Returns" is mixed into "Luke Confronts Jabba," the film version of "The Emperor Arrives" is pasted before "The Lightsaber," and the alternative version of "Funeral Pyre for a Jedi," follows the film version.

Anything I missed?

The film version of "The Emperor Arrives" right before "The Lightsaber" is the only thing that really distracts me. And man, does it distract the hell out of me. Couldn't the alternates have all waited until the end of the discs???

Did you ever stop and think there may have been footage there when Williams spotted the film and that he wrote the music to fit and then the scene was dropped? Maybe they're not alternates but music intended for scenes that were cut.


I don't recall the liner notes mentioning those cues being alternates.

[king mark]

I think it was meant for The Emperor Arrives,the cue doesn't flow well at all into The Light Saber.

K.M.

[Mark Olivarez]

If it were an alternate I would think it would have been mentioned in the liner notes.



If I'm mistaken and somebody knows more please feel free to correct me.

[Kendal_Ozzel]

I thought the liner notes did mention it, actually, but I'm too lazy to go doublecheck at the moment.

[Trent Bennett]

By the way let's ask Demodex this... has he even heard the actual intended edition? Well at least from someone here who has put together the version?

I would not be surprised if he hasn't...

[Henry Buck]

If it were an alternate I would think it would have been mentioned in the liner notes.



If I'm mistaken and somebody knows more please feel free to correct me.

Mark, read my post about misplaced alternative cues. Of all of those, only "The Probe Droid" is mentioned in the liner notes. I know these are alternative cues based on what are apparently informed sources about the OT, such as the "ESB Cue Sheet."

[GoodMusician]

well, wasn't most of the gungan retreat scene added on... hence why it looks so bad...

As far as Episode I, I think there could still be some unheard music.

There are moments in the UE where I couldswear the music must have been edited together, but it's really hard to say.

Also, some of the alternate pieces we've found could, quite possibly, be from completely alternate tracks rather than just alternate endings and such...

There are still two cues that are unknown.

1) a cello tremmelo (cresendo and decresendo)

and

2) What sounds like the moment of Darth Mauls death but much shorter (perhaps an alternate?)

[Mr. Breathmask]

Then there could also have been music written for scenes that were cut after they were scored (and didn't find their way onto the DVD).

[Joey]

If there is a God above, please don't let any more "music" from AOTC be released, as for Revenge of the Sith, any additional music is found on the original Star Wars album.

[Mr. Breathmask]

Here's an idea, Joe.

If a complete AotC is released, which many of us would really like to hear, how about you just not buy it?

[Demodex]

I'm just curious, do people actually routinely listen to the alternative tracks? For example, the alternate versions of "Binary Sunset" and "Sail Barge Assault" on the SE's. I've listened to them once, but not since I bought the discs 9 years ago. I guess I'm more concerned about the music that's actually in the films. That's why I don't care about the edits and stuff that's supposedly missing from TPM:UE. The music in the film sounds great and that's what I want on CD.

[Trent Bennett]

Here's an idea, Joe.

If a complete AotC is released, which many of us would really like to hear, how about you just not buy it?

LOL

No kidding...

Joe,

There are obviously a lot of other people who do want the unreleased music from AOTC and ROTS (myself included). Don't piss in other people's cereal just beacuse you hate AOTC's and ROTS's music. We all know by now that you hate both scores, so you don't have to keep repeating yourself like a damn broken record in every Prequel thread...

[John Crichton]

I'm just curious, do people actually routinely listen to the alternative tracks?

Personally it depends on how much I like the cue. I only listen to the Binary Sunset alternate on occasional listens, but I listen to the alternate Sail Barge Assault every time because I really like it, maybe even more than the film version now.

[Henry Buck]

1) a cello tremmelo (cresendo and decresendo)

Check out the film version of "Probe Droid" (the segment where we see Darth Maul's probe droid snooping through Mos Espa). It's tracked from "The Arrival of Darth Maul," but listen carefully.

I'm just curious, do people actually routinely listen to the alternative tracks?

Sometimes I replace "film versions" with alternative tracks I feel are better. Specifically, "Sail Barge Assault" and "Leia's News." OK, so I think the reprise of Parade of the Ewoks has a big sentimental payoff. Lame?

[GoodMusician]

I did recently hear it there, but what I found is a clean version... without percussion and without vocals... it's just...the cello... you can hear people shifting in their seats and such too...

[Henry Buck]

Yeah, I know. It's in the TPM computer game.

We're kind of steering this thread off-topic, though.

[ymenard]

I'm just curious, do people actually routinely listen to the alternative tracks?  For example, the alternate versions of "Binary Sunset" and "Sail Barge Assault" on the SE's.   I've listened to them once, but not since I bought the discs 9 years ago.   I guess I'm more concerned about the music that's actually in the films.  That's why I don't care about the edits and stuff that's supposedly missing from TPM:UE.  The music in the film sounds great and that's what I want on CD.

See this is where you are different from the rest of us freaks at jwfan.net


We consider anything John has wrote as part of his ensemble oeuvre, and we will do anything to listen to it the way John wrote it. Not the way somebody took his music and decided the way we should hear it. We want to listen to what he composed and/or orchestrated, it's all we want. How it is represented in the movie, is related to the movie, not my listening experience. So he clearly took time to write complete passages of Sail Barge Assault, orchestrated and recorded it. For me, it's part of his oeuvre, it's as important as anything else he's wrote.

The TPM:UE will live forever as one of the worse soundtrack release ever considering the quality of John's score for TPM.

[GoodMusician]

You have to understand though, "the way John wrote it" is not how he intended it.

For one, there are many things that are changed... things layered... vocals added and what not.

TPM for example had the choir whispering "Korah Rhatamba" in certain sections. They were a latter additon, but were no less something that John intended at least for some moments.

Composing is fluid and changes very often. I have a PDF of the conductors score to Jurassic Park. The track on the album known as "Theme from Jurassic Park" that starts out with the solor horn... that was a latter addition...something plopped together during the recording sessions....

Things change.

And then also, as I said earlier, John Williams recordings tracks usually about two minutes at time... but it doesn't mean they're meant to be listened to that way. The OT SE's are presented pretty close to how they are intended to be listend to... not with "clean endings," but with the actual flow between tracks and such...

The problem is that there is no 100% satisfactory way to present the music without there being a problem.

You seperate the tracks, then you get longer and larger CD's... which in turn cost more and also diminishes the overall flow of what the intention of John Williams was.

You don't seperate the tracks, and people complain that they don't have clean endings.

You present it the way that it was re-worked and made for the film, and people complain that it isn't complete.

You have to also realize, John Williams isn't dumb.He KNOWS that his music will be taken apart and changed. I don't know of any of his scores that hasn't been edited or changed in Some way shape or fashion.... or that didn't use an alternate recording of a track.

So, it would be blind of us to not acknowledge that these are scores for FILM...and even as much as we enjoy listening to them seperate from the film... the bottom line is that they are a piece of art meant for one purpose... to exagerate the film, bringin the audience into the emotions of the artwork.

As has been said, "A film is never finished, only abandoned" or even "Every director works on the film until it is literally pryed from their hands and they simply must accept they can do no more."

John Williams music, being a part of this process, is subject to this process...

I think we just need to accept that there is no real way to present these scores short of creating a massive box set (like Goodbye Mr. Chips) for almost every film...something no studio will willing do until many years from now.

This release, more than likely, will be a repackage of all 6 OSTs/SE's.

My point in allthis is we shouldn't be so adament to pass judgement on these people or what they've done or the decisions they've made in the releases. The UE was released to be more of a mass public thing. If you released a GoodBye My. Chips stlye box set for TPM (as would be needed witht he amount of material there is), people would be afraid to buy it... and sales would have been worse because the mass public wouldn't be interested. They want to be able to imagine the film in their head as they listen to the music... if they hear stuff they don't recognize, they will get confused and won't know where its from and will probably skip the track (which in the end, prooves that the effort to present it in a complete fashion isnearly pointless).

So, lets not be so adament or cavalier about passing judgement on the releases. Working on TPM score as I have been has more than prooved to me how DIFFICULT it is.

Do I present the tracks in order, and then put all the alterantes on a sepearte disk? Or do I present them in chronological order with the most of the main alternates right after the track they are alternates for.

If I put them on another disk then people willbe like act like I'm McDonalds and willthink they can have it "their way" and ask for only disk 1 and 2...but not disk 3... Well, I put a lot of effort into doing all the alterantes, so the least people can do is listen to them..

But if I put it next to their originals, they will complain that they have to hit the "skip button."

And then, do I present it with clean endings... OR as John Williams intended the music to be listened to?

There are soo many variables to take into account that it's mind blowing how much work I've had to do to present a decent, listenable score.

It's hard really...I mean, you can't put all 6 versions of Duel of the Fates one after another... no one will want to listen to them. By the time they get to the third one they'll just be sick of it and skip the rest...

So, in doing this, I've found a lot of respect for what these people ahve to do...and go through in order to present the best quality listening experience possible... and its really hard... and not everyone willbe happy with what I release...similar to how not everyone was happy with most of the releases... you can't please everyone...

So, I'm just saying... we need to be less dramatic about our anger and more understanding of what exactly goes into this process...and how genuinely difficult it is for people to set these up...

[robthehand]

OK. They should be as John intended them to be heard in the film (only without the dialogue and SFX ).

[ymenard]

If there are changes, it's still the way he wrote it, it's his score he can do whatever he wants. The music editor who chops it is _not_ the way he wrote it.

Like I wrote, composed and/or orchestrated. We know that the score is cut in small portions, we know things change, but in the end there is an assembly in the orchestral writings, parts are together. At the end of the sessions, it's where the score is still "virgin". If there are additions, then so be it, Johnny wrote it and it's now a part of his oeuvre. After that, it will never be tweaked again in writing, or orchestration. Everything after that, is some sound editor chopping it. Look at the FOTR complete recording, or ANH:SE, it's the way to go. It's not 100% perfect but it will never be. The TPM:UE is only like 5% perfect eh. All you've said GoodMusician stays true to that.