139 replies to this topic

[king mark]

anyways that classical piece in New World,the Vorspiel from Das Reingold,at first I thought it was a bit similar to The Kathra Ritual from Search for Spock,so Horner could have come up with something.


K.M.

[Shoes]

ymenard wrote:

Seriously... Horner is a complete ass indeed.

He's certainly not as humble as JW, that's for sure. He's pretty cocky and quite confident that he will deliver exactly what the director/producer wants (as ymenard just stated). But, hearing someone speak quite frankly about everything in that interview is what I found refreshing -- it's the over-confidence that was too much to handle. But, actually hearing real responses instead of a lot of cookie-cutter, politically correct answers was kind of nice to hear for once.

And as for Troy....both Horner and Yared managed to produce the worst wailing voices ever. Amazingly, truly terrible sounds!

ymenard wrote:

I still wonder how he could have difficulties handling Mallick. I mean couldn't he just watch his _4_ other movies and simply understand that he likes classical-based-slow-etheral-music?

That's the strange part, because while The New World isn't one of my favorite scores (it's rather boring after a few listens), it certainly seemed to have nailed the slow, etheral aspects that Mallick seems to like.....it was nowhere near as good as Zimmer's Thin Red Line, but still....

[ChrisAfonso]

Yared's wailing woman sounds authentic, though. Sure, unconventional, hard on the ears at first, but a funeral (where the wailing takes place) isn't exactly the location for some easy listening. That's what I also really like about Théodred's funeral scene in the Two Towers Extended Edition, the "earthy" mourning song Éowyn sings... Some people find it hideous, I find it totally moving, raw emotion, unlike the processed-and-streamlined-to-death pleasant new-age wailing that's heard everywhere these days (like in Horner's score).

That's what I like most about Yared's score, although it's cleverly constructed (heck, it even has a choral fugue), it sounds raw, a bit uncivilised... that's fitting for the setting. Horner's score doesn't have a particular distinguishing character, it could have been for any big contemporary drama, and his Achilles theme (not the love theme) especially, which sounds like a standard army fanfare and would easily fit in a Bruckheimer movie.

I don't say that Yared's music works brilliantly in the whole film, as I've only matched a few portions of it against the movie, and perhaps it is a bit too overpowering, at least by modern standards... but at least it has character, it has soul, and that's what Horner's score seriously lacks.

[Romão]

There's a big difference between saying a good piece of music is wrong for a particular film and calling it just plain awful.

And nothing has led me to belive Yared's score is wrong. As other have done, the score matches some scenes perfectly.

[Marcus]

Horner is indeed a hack, and a dispiccable one at that. I don't think I've ever read a less sympathetic interview this side of a list of sheer invectives. His lack of humility is staggering! And he doesn't have much to be proud of; he has fully betrayed whatever moderate gifts he once displayed.
A Horrible Hack!!

[robthehand]

His comments about Yared were offensive and unnecessary, but I couldn't help laughing at his comments about copying other composers music - there can be no doubt that he is more guilty of this than most other composers... you actually get the impression he genuinely believes all his music is original.

[Shoes]

Marcus wrote:

Horner is indeed a hack, and a dispiccable one at that. I don't think I've ever read a less sympathetic interview this side of a list of sheer invectives. His lack of humility is staggering! And he doesn't have much to be proud of; he has fully betrayed whatever moderate gifts he once displayed.  
A Horrible Hack!!

See, here's where I have to disagree. When over-generalizations are thrown out to encompass the entire spectrum of someone's career, it doesn't make any sense. Is Horner over-confident? Yep. Is he politically correct in his responses? Nope. Is he arrogant? Probably.

But that doesn't take away from some of the great music he's written. Have you listened to the subtle beauty of The Spitfire Grill? Have you heard the sheer patriotic anthem of "The Launch" and the entire score from Apollo 13? The list goes on and on....Does he have some major flaws, as far as self-repetitions, etc??? Yep, he sure does! But, the fact that 90% of each score is original, against the 10% of re-used material shouldn't condemn him to being a "hack." There's no doubt he has talent, and writes beautiful themes....I just wish that he would expand beyond his boundaries to search for new themes and music, rather than just changing a few notes and expanding upon past ideas.... It's THAT area that he lacks in. But he's not a hack.

ChrisAfonso wrote:

Yared's wailing woman sounds authentic, though. Sure, unconventional, hard on the ears at first, but a funeral (where the wailing takes place) isn't exactly the location for some easy listening.

And everyone listens to music for different reasons. While I can appreciate your choice of Yared's utter wailing voices, and while it also may be more accurate to how people feel at a funeral, it is just NOT something I ever want to listen to over my stereo in the house. Surround sound systems were not created so that my wine glasses would shatter from that wailing, making me run into the room to skip that track. It's just not an enjoyable listen....and if I'm going to drop $15 on a CD for all of these scores, the ONLY thing that I want is an enjoyable listen. I could care less about an authentic funeral wail.

robthehand wrote:

you actually get the impression he genuinely believes all his music is original.

Yeah, that's the other problem with Horner -- if he would just admit: "Yep. I feel that I use some of the same music to describe scenes in various films" then at least he would be conveying honesty. Albeit reprehensible honesty, but still....It's weird to hear him speak like he doesn't completely re-use his themes, when it's so obvious that he does....... I love his music, but hate that aspect of it.

[ChrisAfonso]

Well, sure it's not for everyone to listen to it at home, my comment was directed at the use in the movie... most people wouldn't listen to an atonal screeching noisy horror score at home, which doesn't change the fact that the music is perfect for its intended use in the film.

[Shoes]

ChrisAfonso wrote:

Well, sure it's not for everyone to listen to it at home, my comment was directed at the use in the movie... most people wouldn't listen to an atonal screeching noisy horror score at home, which doesn't change the fact that the music is perfect for its intended use in the film.

Agreed 100%. But that's one of the main criticisms of Horner: that even though his sound usually fits the film perfectly, it's too repetitive of his past writings. But if the only point is to fit the film perfectly, then while Yared's wailing voice works perfectly, then the vast majority of Horner's scores also work perfectly. It's only fair to admit that - it can't work both ways. Granted, the re-uses are wrong in my opinion, and don't expand the creativity that we want and expect from him....but the music still fits the film. (Maybe not as much in the case of Troy, but he only had 9 days to write the score, so a small amount of slack should be allowed.)

And as much as I love a score to fit the film (which is what the composer gets paid for), when I'm dropping my money on a CD, and listening to it in my car or at home, the only thing I care about is whether it's an enjoyable listen.

[ChrisAfonso]

Well, I don't say that most of Horner's music doesn't fit the film (except in instances like the anticlimactic ships scene etc.). MY main criticism is that Horner mostly does his exact job in that he writes a score that aids the movie (well), but doesn't do anything more than that. A composer (as an artist) should always (at least) try to write creative music, or he becomes a mere craftsman doing (caution, exaggeration here: ) brainless technical work. An analogy would be a set designer who (re)uses the same sets for different movies, if they fit thematically. Sure they work in context, and technically there's nothing wrong with them, just that he saves the effort of creating something new. But, like with Horner's music, the pitfall is when this becomes too obvious and begins to take the viewer/listener out of the movie experience. Like (the usual example ) each time Horner's overused-to-death danger motif pops out in Troy, I notice it and think "I've heard that in this, this, this, this, this and this movie... it's getting old".

[Mark Olivarez]

I have a cue that a friend made a few years ago. He took Bicentennial Man, Sneakers and A Beautiful Mind and overlayed all three cues on top of each other.

With the exception of a few moments it sounds like a Horner symphony of all the same repetative notes he uses over and over. It sounds like an actual composed cue.

Needless to say it's one of the few times film music has made me cry from laughing so hard.

[Shoes]

ChrisAfonso wrote:

MY main criticism is that Horner mostly does his exact job in that he writes a score that aids the movie (well), but doesn't do anything more than that. A composer (as an artist) should always (at least) try to write creative music, or he becomes a mere craftsman doing (caution, exaggeration here: ) brainless technical work.

You and I are in complete agreement! That's my main beef with JH as well.... From hearing the themes that he writes we know that he has talent - but to never delve into new ideas limits him as an artist. And that's the sad truth: that for someone who has done more than 100 films, we could have an even greater variety of music if only JH chose to expand his own creativity. But he hasn't. And that's what is sad.

Mark wrote:

Needless to say it's one of the few times film msuc has made me cry from laughing so hard.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I've ever laughed out loud literally. I'm not that caught up in the whole thing where someone repeating music is going to upset me or cause me to laugh out loud in ridicule. I think it's unprofessional as an artist....but unfortunately it's perfectly viable as a film composer. And I'm only sad that we don't see more of JH as an artist because he won't break out of the comfortable little box that he's in. It's a shame....

[ymenard]

I like the smell of a horner-bashing-thread in the morning

[Shoes]

HA! ...But that's not what I'm doing. I'm not bashing at all....

[tpigeon]

I don't think Horner understands that its the director's movie, not the composer's. He seems to think he can get whatever he wants because he is the great James Horner. He understands how to score a film, therefore directors should just give their films over to him, no questions asked. This is a very pompous attitude. Even John Williams is willing to do what it takes to give a director what he or she wants.

Ted

[Stefancos]

James Horner tells it like it is, take it or leave it folks.

I agree with him 100%!

Another 48 Hours

[GoodMusician]

I personally was not a fan of his score to this film. The scene where the city was burning and everything going bad really quick... that was so... Titanic. It worked well with Titanic, but I really lost interest when I heard it here.

I also hated that song he wrote for the film. And the triumphant horn theme heard in the film is so...

I dunno. If you like James Horner, you like this score becuase it is SOOoooo James Horner.

Dare I ask this question, but why is it almost every James Horner score has something wrong as far as the performance goes on it? Like... does he not hire...good...performers?

[Mark Olivarez]

No it's probably because the orchestras are tired of playing the same old music whenever they do a score for Horner.


"Didn't we play this piece the last 2 times we worked for him?"

[Richard Penna]

I do agree that it definitely is refreshing to see a non PR type angle of the industry and conflicts within, but Horner went too far here. Nothing in that interview showed any indication of modesty, humility or tolerance of unusual ways of working inside him.

I knew someone like that on an unrelated board I help administrate. He got banned permanently last year.

[gkgyver]

Dare I ask this question, but why is it almost every James Horner score has something wrong as far as the performance goes on it? Like... does he not hire...good...performers?

You know what? I also wondered about this s couple of times. It's sometimes like they don't know what to do with his music.

[Marcus]

Ah, a wonderful question has emerged!
The reason Horner gets bad performances is because he writes badly for orchestra, something his orchestrators can't truly remedy, because the music is badly "thought", badly "felt"...
By the same token, Williams will always get good results, even when players give a less than perfect rendition of his music, simply because the music is beautifully conceived. No matter how bad a performance, a musician's appreciation for thoughtfulness, consideration and (dare I say) love on behalf of the composer, will result in a certain enthusiasm, and usually a clearer understanding of a composer's intention.
This is always true, and in any musical context.

[Johnnyecks]

I hate this horner bashing.

Yes, ok, he is redundant.


But he wrote some AMAZING scores (some lesser listened to works come to mine like "Balto", "We're Back", and "Once Upon A Forest".
He STILL writes some great music ("Iris", "A New World", "Legend of Zorro".

Yes, Williams will get more respect out of the orchestra because of his reputation and, perhaps, their love for him. But Horner still writes some great music. He is still, and will forever be, on my top 5 list!

[Shoes]

I agree....I've never understood the need for all the composer bashing out there. What is the true, honest point of it? To make yourself feel better because you're apparently a FAN of the BEST composer out there?? And if another composer doesn't stand up to the same degree, BUT still somehow gains popularity, then you must continually try to write comments and come up with theories about why he sucks, or is a hack....or for crying out loud, as to why the friggin orchestra members don't play the music as well for him???

The endless bashing, in all honesty, ONLY ADDS to the fact that Horner is an extremely gifted composer....it's just like an athlete who goes into the opposing stadium for a game: if the other fans yell "BOOOOO" it's not because you suck; it's because you're good, and they don't like that you're on the other team. If you truly sucked, then no one would bother to yell "BOOOOOO."

So while all the Williams' fans who bash Horner get their own personal ego boosted, all it really does is establish Horner as a truly talented composer worth taking recognition of. I write this with a caveat that I've stated many times already: I think Horner has many flaws in his approach! However, I still truly appreciate the music he's written and enjoy its beauty, power and emotion.

I hate to say it, but when it comes to pure, emotional beauty, I would take Legends of the Fall or the Braveheart theme over the Superman love them any day of the week. Where Williams succeeds is in writing the best themes ever recorded, for some of the most popular films ever made -- JW's THEMES are unsurpassed --- but Horner's simplistic beauty for a love theme that moves you emotionally is also unsurpassed.

I just don't understand anyone's desire to bash instead of to appreciate all music.....

[crocodile]

Yared's wailing woman sounds authentic, though. Sure, unconventional, hard on the ears at first, but a funeral (where the wailing takes place) isn't exactly the location for some easy listening. That's what I also really like about Théodred's funeral scene in the Two Towers Extended Edition, the "earthy" mourning song Éowyn sings... Some people find it hideous, I find it totally moving, raw emotion, unlike the processed-and-streamlined-to-death pleasant new-age wailing that's heard everywhere these days (like in Horner's score).  

Agreed.

So in the end we have two movies, one overscored and one underscored. Which is better?

Karol

[Romão]

Overscored all the way. At least it provides for a good cd.

[ChrisAfonso]

I would take Legends of the Fall or the Braveheart theme over the Superman love them any day of the week.

Well, me too, but I don't really like Superman... or let's say, I'm indifferent to it.
If you'd take those two over the Blue Fairy theme from AI however, or Marion's theme from Raiders...

/edit: A Horner love theme I really adore is the one from "Deep Impact"... stunnningly beautiful

[Mark Olivarez]

I hate to say it, but when it comes to pure, emotional beauty, I would take Legends of the Fall or the Braveheart theme over the Superman love them any day of the week. Where Williams succeeds is in writing the best themes ever recorded, for some of the most popular films ever made -- JW's THEMES are unsurpassed --- but Horner's simplistic beauty for a love theme that moves you emotionally is also unsurpassed.

I just don't understand anyone's desire to bash instead of to appreciate all music.....

There are those of us who appreciate quality and not the same old notes slapped on a page for a different films.

Besides this IS JWFAN.COM not JHFAN.com. If a majority of the people here can't appreciate Jerry goldsmith do you honestly think Horner has any chance?

[gkgyver]

There are those of us who appreciate quality and not the same old notes slapped on a page for a different films.  

Besides this IS JWFAN.COM not JHFAN.com. If a majority of the people here can't appreciate Jerry goldsmith do you honestly think Horner has any chance?

About Horner's Braveheart/Titanic theme being more emotional than the Superman theme: I bought the Braveheart CD because I heard good things. I listened to the love theme and turned it off halfway through. I could never do that with Love Theme From Superman, and may it be just out of sheer awe.

[Mark Olivarez]

Now it's my turn





I've also stated many times my appreciation for most of Horner's works before 1990..

[Shoes]

There are those of us who appreciate quality and not the same old notes slapped on a page for a different films.  

Besides this IS JWFAN.COM not JHFAN.com. If a majority of the people here can't appreciate Jerry goldsmith do you honestly think Horner has any chance?

And that's understandable. I never tried to say that JW music shouldn't be appreciated. He's had a much broader career than has JH (conducting the Boston Pops for starters) or pretty much any film composer out there.

But as for "the same old notes slapped on a page" comment, obviously there was a first time that a Horner theme was written: When the Apollo 13 theme was played....when the Willow theme was played....the action music of Aliens...the Braveheart theme for the 1st time...etc etc.... Those wonderful themes show off the composer's talent -- it's his lack of an expanding pallette that it his downfall.

So, it's just disappointing to see people who are obviously very passionate about film scores and orchestral music (a very tiny community mind you) choose to hate a fellow composer, rather than enjoy what there is to offer. BUT, that's everyone's own personal choice and taste.

I'd rather take the approach of looking at each individual score on its own and deciding whether or not I like it and enjoy listening to it. For example, I think that Horner's new one All the King's Men is rather boring....it's getting good reviews from what I can gather, but I'm bored by it, as it just seems to not live up to the potential it had. But that certainly doesn't make me like Horner any less. I just choose not to enjoy that particular score (and many others) of his.....But it's the same with Zimmer, Williams, Thomas Newman, Goldsmith, Brian Tyler or Gregson-Williams or anyone ---- these guys all write the music to fit the film: sometimes I'll enjoy the music on CD, and sometimes I won't....it's pretty much that simple.

I just feel sorry for the people who simply choose to ingnore the works of a significant member of the film scoring community. And like I said: It's all about preference and taste -- if gkgyver (btw, I LOVE the Newman avatar!! ) had to turn off the Braveheart theme half-way thru, then that's obviously his choice. Personally, it's not like I would turn off EITHER Superman or Braveheart.....it's just that if I had to choose one, I'd choose Braveheart. I just love good music and I don't care who writes it because I have no axes to grind and don't feel disdain or loathing for anyone....

Case in point: I'm getting married next Saturday, and the string quartet that we've hired will be playing The Princess Bride "storybook love", Superman "love theme", Braveheart "for the love of a princess", and the bride will walk down the aisle to Legends of the Fall "The Ludlows." It should be a nice, outdoor ceremony....

[tpigeon]

Congratulations on getting married, Shoes! I'm on the 21st of October.

Ted

[Romão]

And you choose Mark Knofler, which is my biggest musical idol after John Williams

Sincerece Congratulations

[Shoes]

Thanks Ted....and congrats right back at you for October 21st!!! All the Best to you!

And Merkel, thanks! Unfortunately the string quartet couldn't play any Dire Straits!! ha!

[GoodMusician]

The irony, I just arranged a piano/viola/flute arrangement of 'The Ludlows.' We play it at my church as a prelude at times.

I was gonna do something John Williams, but everyone knows John Williams. So I choose someone more simple and obscure, like James Horner.

Don't take my performance question as a bashing... I don't hate James Horner.

Some of my favourite childhood films have a James Horner score...

An American Tale
-and Fievel Goes West
Willow
The Land Before Time
We're Back, a Dinosaur Story
The Pagemaster
Casper
Titanic
Deep Impact

Wow... that era of films... really brings me back...

But what bothers me is when you start getting to modern Horner, I can't say many of his modern scores have surprised me. Maybe 'The Perfect Storm,' but when 'Bicentennial Man' (which is truly almost a rip off of ... not sure why Speilberg did that and AI. The scores are NOT comparable because AI has such a better score) and 'A Beautiful Mind' start off with the SAME THING... I just...really lost interest and was disspointed...

[Shoes]

The irony, I just arranged a piano/viola/flute arrangement of 'The Ludlows.' We play it at my church as a prelude at times.

See, that's really cool. And not just because it's Horner, but the fact that you've studied enough to know how to do that with any music....if you lived around Chicago I would have paid you to do something like that for our wedding -- I'm sure that sounds fantastic!!!

[fommes]

Hey goodmusician, would you have your arrangement in PDF or something and be willing to share it? I'd be interested to play it myself.

[GoodMusician]

um, If someone can teach me how to put it in PDF. I have it in finale? and a midi and a recording of it if you want to hear it.

Just pm me.

[Shoes]

GoodMusician wrote:

But what bothers me is when you start getting to modern Horner, I can't say many of his modern scores have surprised me. Maybe 'The Perfect Storm,' but when 'Bicentennial Man' (which is truly almost a rip off of ... not sure why Speilberg did that and AI. The scores are NOT comparable because AI has such a better score) and 'A Beautiful Mind' start off with the SAME THING... I just...really lost interest and was disspointed...

It's impossible to disagree that modern Horner is harder to appreciate than his earlier works, if you look at it thru the eyes of the self-repetitions -- but while A Beautiful Mind certainly starts off nearly identical in the piano build-up as Bicentennial Man, the rest of the score is just hauntingly beautiful....the car-chase scene is brilliant, and the love themes are gorgeous. So, while I openly criticise the repetition of the opening, I'm not going to hold it against the rest of the score, which is fantastic.

...And I'd also love to hear your arrangement if someone can teach you how to put it into a PDF file, because I have no clue how to either...

[tpigeon]

I have to admire Shoes for being in the clear minority regarding Horner and standing his ground every step of the way. For me, Horner is hit or miss. I tend not to like his over-the-top, epic stuff like Braveheart or Apollo 13. But I like a lot of his older scores and a few recent ones such as The Missing and The Legend of Zorro. As for the repitition, every composer does it.

Ted

[Stefancos]

Dare I ask this question, but why is it almost every James Horner score has something wrong as far as the performance goes on it? Like... does he not  hire...good...performers?

Rubbish, Horner works with the same players that Williams often uses.