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Horner On The Score: Troy


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#41 crocodile

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 12:21 PM

here he rips off "Saturn"


You mean the part when they bring wooden horse to the city? If so, this is almost identical to the middle part of the piece you mentioned. I thought that I had wrong CD to the player when I first heard it.

Karol

#42 scissorhands

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 01:29 PM

Glory is great, other than the shameless ripoffs from Britten's War Requiem.

and from Prokofiev's "Ivan the Terrible". And there you have "Carmina Burana", but that one is more like a homage (I guess).

#43 Richard Penna

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 02:35 PM

Horner's comments about Bach and Jared's  score for "The English Patient" come across as particularly naive. Bach was the whole point in that score, or at least the western tradition was, mixed with other - contrasting - musical traditions in an often beautiful polyphony. Jared was composing a deliberate TRIBUTE to Bach.


I completely agree. If Horner noticed these similarities coming from a composer like Yared, did it occur to him that maybe he was asked to do it? Twat.

Also, fancy forgetting the title to "Poseidon".


You know, I really thought he was being harshly sarcastic about the quality of the movie. Clearly not, and it's stunning to think he didn't know that.

Mind you, I do like parts of "The Perfect Storm", to give Horner his due, although it all sounds roughly the same. And there are quite breathtaking melodic thefts from Copland in it.


I really like The Perfect Storm; a really nice theme, sets the right tone for me, and most of it is hugely complex. But to think that Horner thinks the the so called 'failure' of the movie was due to the music mixed too low. Now that's arrogant.


Can you imagine Williams being quite so openly arrogant though? And abusive?


Nope, and I was genuinly shocked by this.


I've noticed that Horner criticizes Yared both times, aparently due to what he was asked to provide in the way of style of music, for both English Patient and Troy. Basically that means that Yared is a composer who 'dutifully' does exactly what the director wants and I find it hard to fault that, but Horner seems to have a massive problem with that given his background which he claims was known for being experimental. Well excuse some composers wanting to create a 'normal' score which you don't happen to like, James :roll:

#44 Drax

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 02:46 PM

He, after all the work we went through, I would not have done - what was the movie he just finished? - the one with the wave that turns the boat over.


Reminds me of when he forgot who Jerry Goldsmith was.

LOL

#45 king mark

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 03:26 PM

where can I still download Yared's score?

K.M.

#46 ChrisAfonso

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 03:30 PM

Some donkey had a 320kps copy floating around...

#47 tpigeon

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 03:30 PM

At least he acknowledged that Williams used all the good notes already for a News theme? That's humble.

Ted

#48 ChrisAfonso

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 03:31 PM

here he rips off "Saturn"


You mean the part when they bring wooden horse to the city? If so, this is almost identical to the middle part of the piece you mentioned. I thought that I had wrong CD to the player when I first heard it.

Karol


Exactly. And I felt the same way. Listening to themusic is was like: hornerhornerhornerhornerhorner... BAM! HOLST! hornerhornerhornerhornerhorner...
"The Imperial March" tells us straight up that Vader is the greatest evil in the universe, and Vader has to choke Imperial officers constantly just to keep up with his theme music. - Cerrabore
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"GLXBLT!" - Hortense McDuck

#49 Drax

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 04:02 PM

I thought this interview was hilarious! Horner's probably one of the best talkers I've ever come across. Too bad he hasn't done a DVD commentary. I was almost on the floor laughing my arse off with some of the things he said. Also, I wouldn't want to get into his bad books, he holds a grudge like a bitter Herrmann!

#50 guest

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 04:20 PM

In their prime wouldn't it have been fun to lock Herrmann, Horner and Goldsmith into a room and see who comes out?

#51 Vaderbait1

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 04:38 PM

Considering how Horner is a lightweight next to them, and I don't know much about Herrmann, I'd say the silver tongued Goldsmith would emerge.

#52 David Coscina

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 04:49 PM

Goldsmith would kick everyone's ass. Herrmann was too heavy and Horner is a skinny little twit. My money would be on Jerry!

#53 guest

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 04:52 PM

Yeah my money would be on Goldsmith but Herrmann did have a cane didn't he?

#54 crocodile

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 05:14 PM

In their prime wouldn't it have been fun to lock Herrmann, Horner and Goldsmith into a room and see who comes out?


Well, since the other two are dead... it appears that only Horner can possibly come out. Ironically.

;) The Black Dahlia (I enjoy it very much)

Karol

#55 Romão

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 05:25 PM

I think you need have deserved a certain stature to speak like Horner did, and I don't think he deserves yet.

#56 Shoes

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 05:52 PM

Hi - 1st post here! I'm quite a regular over at the Horner Shrine, and I'm often criticized over there for not blindly defending his music, techniques, self-plagairisms, etc... I am completely against Horner always re-using his themes and simply changing the Braveheart theme by a note or two for a new score. I think that it's wrong and makes it harder to appreciate the truly good music that he does produce. However, I still truly enjoy the music he's written!! And sadly, it's gotten to a point that Horner is going to get ripped on by certain people no matter what kind of music he produces. So, in essence, the blind-bashing has become just as bad as the blind-defending.

I love JW's music as much as anyone, and have seen him perform live in Chicago six times. However, even his most ardent proponents must admit that JW also "steals/borrows" from the classical music realm. The examples of it that I've heard are plenty....so, while it's certainly easier to bash on Horner for it, let's not forget that every composer does it, including our beloved JW - and I don't want to crucify either one of them for doing it.

How film music fans became such snobs I will never, ever understand. How many of the fans find it trendy or almost a necessity to "choose sides" on whether or not they think that Hans Zimmer and Media Ventures are a bunch of repetitive hacks; or if JW can only compose a great theme, but the rest of the score is a bore; or if Horner is a hack with no talent because only 90% of each new score is original, and 10% is re-used material..... The point is that while I own just under 700 film scores by a variety of composers, I've never found it necessary to get mad at a composer...or to rip on a fan because they like a certain composer...or even to judge a score before I've even heard it.

As far as the interview, I completely agree that it left me feeling a little at odds. While I think that Horner was completely and brutally honest, it also might have been over the top in its honesty. JW is a guy who won't ever say anything bad about anyone -- but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have the same feelings that Horner has mentioned....Horner was just crazy enough to actually say them outloud! And while I have to give him props for that (and for supposedly giving us some insight into the "real" Hollywood), I still wish he would have chosen a few more diplomatic words to make it sound a little less harsh.

That's my take. I hope to talk with all of you soon....
Shoes

#57 robthehand

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 05:53 PM

Herrmann did have a cane didn't he?


Yes, he did. It's funny you mention that, since I was just reading this, which makes several reference to his use of his walking stick. ;)

#58 QuestionMarkMan

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 05:55 PM

;) @ shoes
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#59 Shoes

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 06:07 PM

Right back at ya QuestionMarkMan!! Thx!! ;)

#60 igor

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 06:21 PM

Aha, we have a classical saxophonist among us. Rousseau you said, QuestionMark Man, unless there is another guy who goes by the same name. I'm actually a saxophonist studying in Paris with Jean-Yves Fourmeau, and I'm trying of finding a way to come over to the States next year. I'm thinking of going to Michigan State University with Joe Lulloff, great teacher it seems.

Igor

#61 QuestionMarkMan

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 06:25 PM

Aha, we have a classical saxophonist among us. Rousseau you said, QuestionMark Man, unless there is another guy who goes by the same name. I'm actually a saxophonist studying in Paris with Jean-Yves Fourmeau, and I'm trying of finding a way to come over to the States next year. I'm thinking of going to Michigan State University with Joe Lulloff, great teacher it seems.

Igor

Great to meet another saxophonist! Yes it was the Rousseau you were thinking of. I was very surprised at how nice and genial the man was and even at his age he's able to play the Creston Sonata like a master. I asked him about taking lessons from him next semester but he'll be too busy so I'll have to take it with one of his graduate students ;)
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#62 igor

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 06:30 PM

Who are you studying with? Yeah his Creston is my favorite, I've heard quite alot of versions of that Sonata. I've recently got that for myself.

#63 QuestionMarkMan

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 06:33 PM

Who are you studying with? Yeah his Creston is my favorite, I've heard quite alot of versions of that Sonata. I've recently got that for myself.

I'm not studying with anybody at the moment, I'm only playing with one of the University Bands at the moment because, this being my first year in college I didn't want to overload my self with a ton of stuff at first, but I'll be taking private lessons next semester and will probably just have to practice at my dorm for now.

My brother played the Creston last year and went to state with it, hope you enjoy it!
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#64 igor

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 06:38 PM

Played it a year and a half ago. I could play it better now though.

#65 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 07:29 PM

Herrmann would consider Horner's attacks as tame.

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 08:03 PM

In their prime wouldn't it have been fun to lock Herrmann, Horner and Goldsmith into a room and see who comes out?


Well, since the other two are dead... it appears that only Horner can possibly come out. Ironically.

:) The Black Dahlia (I enjoy it very much)

Karol



That's why I said in their prime.

I guess I could have made it easier and said if they were all alive.

#67 crocodile

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 08:19 PM

I got that. But they are dead. So maybe it was because of such confrontation with Horner. He killed them with his personality alone :)

Karol, who thinks that his reasoning falters lately (since Herrmann died December 24th 1975, so it was some time before Horner)

#68 guest

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 08:21 PM

Horner would have been a young teenager then. Herrmann would just knock him over the head with his cane. :)

#69 AI

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 04:41 AM

Horner is very bad at interviews, and I think due to nervousness rather than true arrogance.

He has said plenty of other things which came across as preposterous.

#70 Ray Barnsbury

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 05:57 AM

I'm thinking of going to Michigan State University with Joe Lulloff, great teacher it seems.  

Cool, are you from Michigan?

Ray Barnsbury - who lives 10 minutes from MSU

#71 WellOfSouls

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 06:12 AM

I like Horner enough, but in this interview he is a total ass.

I especially like the part where he talks about how lots of composers these days simply write music that sounds the same over and over again and he is quite possibly the worst offender of this kind in Hollywood.

#72 Drax

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 06:54 AM

I like Horner enough, but in this interview he is a total ass.

I especially like the part where he talks about how lots of composers these days simply write music that sounds the same over and over again and he is quite possibly the worst offender of this kind in Hollywood.


Sounded like Horner was making a jab at MV/RC with that comment. I still cannot contain how entertained I was by this interview, his story about the events surrounding the troubled production of The New World were particularly interesting. Terrence Malick sounds like every composer's worst nightmare. It reminded me of Jerry Goldsmith's strained working relationship with Ridley Scott over Alien and Legend.

#73 igor

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 07:30 AM

Actually no. I'm just half-Lebanese, half-Brazilian, I'm studying in Paris right now, and I hope I can get a scholarship or an assistantship to be able to go to MSU next year, i hope, or the year after that. And the more I think of it, the more itmakes sense to me that I must go.

Igor

#74 Morlock

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 01:27 AM

Okay, I'm about an hour and a half into it (right after the whole Peterson/Yared talk). My impressions so far: Terrific interview, one of the best I've heard fo a film composer. Far and away the best Horner's given. What you call vanity, I call honesty. I think he comes off as very honest. That doesn't necasserly make him right, of course, though so far I find myself agreeing with him on a whole lot of points.
About the Troy comments:

Well, the scenes I have matched against the film worked beautifully and much better than Horner's score. Like in the transition from Achilles' contemplating face after speaking to his mother, to the wide shot of the 1000 ships... Horner is absolutely anticlimactic here, I couldn't believe it. And for Horner to accuse Yared of not knowing how to score a film like this, when his score includes sooo much stolen material (more than usual), ...


I went on a project about a year and a half ago with a friend of trying to create a cut of the film entirely with Yared's score. Many scenes were spectacular, mesmerising. But, to tell the truth, I think I agree with Horner. The score was wrong for the film. The music was so much better than the film, so much bolder, so much louder, that at times the intensity (and decibals) reached just overwhelmed to such a degree as to totally nullify the draam on screen. As a music fan, it was glorious. As a guy trying to watch a film, it was just a very harmful score.
Of course Yared's music for Troy is so much better in every possible way than Horner's (and I do mean EVERY possible way). But that it besides the point. And that's exactly what Horner is saying. He's not at all saying that the music is bad, or badly composed, which indeed would be terribly hypocritical (which, of course, does apply to his Bach/English Patient comment, whether founded or a petty invention of Horner's), he is saying that, as a film score, the music did not serve the film. And I quite agree with him. The score was too big, too grand for the film to support, or any other film that I can imagine. I am extremely thankful that Yared got the chance he did to write such intelligent, glorious music, thankful that he had the film and the extravegant tastes of a Wagnerian director. That is by far to best thing to come of the whole project. Just today I listened to parts of the score and couldn't get enough of it, and can't remember the last time I put on Horner's score (though I do like it). But the fact that it is, IMO, some of the best music ever written for film, does not negate the fact that it was a bad film score. A good film score does not need to be intelligent. A good film score does not need to be original. A good film score does not need to be good music. It needs to serve the dramatic purposes of the film. If it is any or all of the above, all the better, but first and foremost, it's got to serve the film. And if the director is too stupid to see what his film really needs, that still doesn't mean he should throw away the work put into the film by giving it a harmful score. Yared here was not a victim of the studio, nor of the test screening audience, nor of the focus group. He was the victim of Wolfgang Peterson, and no one but Wolfgang Peterson.
Horner's score serves the film terrifically. Some moments may not have been big enough, but concidering the unfortunate circumstances of Yared's termination, it's understandable. Either way, it still worked.
The trouble is, so much discussion of film scores have nothing to do with good film scoring. Of course Yared can compose the pants off Horner and Zimmer and 99.9% of all Hollywood film composers. But the fact is, as unfortunate or depressing as it might be, a film composer's job is to serve the film. Horner and Zimmer are brilliant film composers. Yared is too, when he is not acting on the whims of a stupid director. He did not deserve to get fired, he did everything that was asked of him, and did it as well as anyone ever has. But his score was wrong for Troy. It would be impractical to have him re-write the score within 2 weeks, after spending a year writing the first one. Bringing in Horner was a sensible, and, in hind-sight, a right thing to do for the sake of the film.

Here I've gone on a rant, replying with the one post to the other dozen I wanted to respond to specifically.......Oh, except for this one:

and Sneakers!

Everybody misses Sneakers

Terrific in the film, and makes for a good album. Don't forget who brought it to your attention, boy! 8O ;)

Morlock- who is really torn on the matter because he loves Yared's score so much, but feels that someone must present the matter from the POV of the film.
Morlock2- who would like to make it clear once more that NONE of this is against Yared or the music
Morlock3- who has other thoughts about the interview, but will save them for later, after getting his view on this most important matter off his chest
I should be resisting this, but I'm paralyzed with rage... and island rhythms.

#75 QuestionMarkMan

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 01:35 AM

 Here I've gone on a rant, replying with the one post to the other dozen I wanted to respond to specifically.......Oh, except for this one:  
 

and Sneakers!

Everybody misses Sneakers

Terrific in the film, and makes for a good album. Don't forget who brought it to your attention, boy! :P ;)

Haven't forgotten! I can thank you for bringing a lot of things to my attention :) 8O

Also, kudos for what you said. It's good to hear another perspective besides one that simply slams Horner
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#76 ridan

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 03:26 AM

I think that Yared's music matched the film perfectly. As others have mentioned, the shot of the ships is scored by Yared as if something is actually happening, sort of: "Achilles is going to his doom, along with thousands of other Greeks!". Horner's cue for the scene..."Hey, Achilles on a ship. Oh wait, lots of ships."
For the Approach of the Greeks: Yared's score makes the Greeks seem threatening. Horner's music seems to make the Greek army just another bunch of marching people, no worries.
The fight between Hector and Aias, Yared makes Ajax threatening and Hector valiant. Almost actually makes me worry for both characters. I don't even remember Horner's music.
The only place I can think of as Horner surpassing Yared is in Yared's use of screeching vocals for Hector's funeral. Of course, Horner used wailing vocals all over the place...like for a scene of the camera panning over the walls of Troy at night when nothing at all is happening.

BTW, does anybody know how Yared's finale cues match up? I can't seem to synch them with the movie. Most everything else I've figured out.

#77 tpigeon

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 02:27 PM

I have yet to hear Yared's score, but I would like to.

Speaking of interviews, I just listened to sountrack.net's interview with Danny Elfman and I must say that he is he best composer interview I've heard. He's honest, interesting, and insightful.

Ted

#78 Shoes

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 02:28 PM

Being a big JH fan, I thought I'd like his version better than Yared's....that is until I heard Yared's and it's far superior. Yared's version is a HUGE score though (and as JH was saying in that interview, HUGE seemed to be the problem and why they pulled it...not huge in terms of orchestra members, just in sound). Along the lines of Vangelis' Alexander.

I thought the film itself was complete crap though - a total bore. So, I never really tried to synch up Yared's score to the film to see how it would fit, because I don't want to agonize sitting thru the film again....I just prefer listening to Yared's Troy over Horner's Troy..... Just my opinion though.

Ted - you can buy a copy of Yared's Troy at http://www.majestyx.com/index2.html
Great site to get thousands of can't-find-and-unavailable-unreleased scores.... :( (and no it's not my site...I'm not plugging.)

#79 ymenard

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 02:46 PM

that's it.

It's over.


I'm burning all my JH CD's.


Oh wait there ain't much I've got :(





Seriously... Horner is a complete ass indeed. But that man knows how to deal with Hollywood better than any composer of the past twenty years. He hands them exactly what they want, everytime. Sure it's predictable and stolen blattently from the greats, but it's exactly what the director and producer wants. I still wonder how he could have difficulties handling Mallick. I mean couldn't he just watch his _4_ other movies and simply understand that he likes classical-based-slow-etheral-music?


At least let's be thankful that Horner does score music mostly in a normal, non-MV way.

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 03:01 PM

Yared's music is much better than Horner's. It hardly sounds like 50's Hercules music.

The only cues I'm not too thrilled with are the wailing women cues. Even my wife made me skip those when I listening to the score.




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