221 replies to this topic

[tuneman_21]

Since we're on the subject of Menken...who I personally think gets the job done, but is nothing to write home about...has anyone noticed that his Jaffar theme from "Aladdin" bares a striking note for note, rhythm for rhythm resemblence to Bizet's "tragic" motif from Carmen?



I will say this for Menken. He's given us band directors plenty of music that works well for half-time shows.

[Morlock]

Yes, if you are the kind of man who thinks fish fingers is as good as smoked salmon....

I do not like fish fingers, I am a big smoked salmon person. Had it yesterday for breakfast. And Mulan is a fine Jerry Goldsmith score, a better than average JG score. But I would give it up to keep Menken's Hunchback, as that is the one score where he actually delivered something really terrific. 'Sanctuary' is better than anything in Mulan.

[Luke Skywalker]

Except it has little to do with the songs. Not that I mind that, as the songs are quite terrible, but all of Menken's music works as a whole, score and songs together.

Well the main titles of mulan use thematic material from 'Honor us'. I dont know if the main titles are Goldsmith's though.



In a side note, Menken repeated himself sometimes, even songs:

the little mermaid cook's song is very similar to the beauty and the beast 'feast' song.

[Morlock]

Oh, come now...and Goldsmith's Mulan is sparkling in it's originality? No, but that's quite beside the point, in both cases.

[Mr. Breathmask]

Mulan is a very nice score.

But believe it or not, The Hunchback of Notre Dame blows it away.

[Maestro]

Zimmer's Lion King score is much better than any of the Menken scores. Just as The Lion King is much better than any of the other Disney movies.

[Mr. Breathmask]

The Lion King is good. But it's no Hunchback. Or Pocahontas. It's not even Mulan.

[Morlock]

I think The Lion King is a very good score, but too uneven. Although I would take it over Pocahontas any day of the week, twice on Tuesday.

[Stefancos]

Mulan is a very nice score.

But believe it or not, The Hunchback of Notre Dame blows it away.

SATAN!

[Red Rabbit]

Mulan is a very nice score.

But believe it or not, The Hunchback of Notre Dame blows it away.

Good form exactly.

[Stefancos]

I cannot believe the lack of loyalty to Goldsmith, on a forum dedicated to his musi....oh wait.

[Morlock]

I do not belive loyalty means Dan Hobgoood like theatrics.

[Luke Skywalker]

I cannot believe the lack of loyalty to Goldsmith

Ask, and i'll do your bidding my master.

[Stefancos]

You're one... *ugly* motherfucker!

[Luke Skywalker]

Your momma didnt say so.

[Morlock]

How can you misspell 'yo'?

[Luke Skywalker]

[Mark Olivarez]

I do not belive loyalty means Dan Hobgoood like theatrics.

No that borders on stupidity.

[Romão]

I love Mulan, but when it comes to overall quality of score and songs, it's very hard to beat the Hunchback of Notre Dame.

[Red Rabbit]

"The Bells of Notre Dame" and "Heaven's Light / Hellfire" are some of the best Disney songs ever.

[Romão]

Hellfire might be the best sequence of any Disney animated movie.

[Trumpeteer]

I don't know where I was when this thread started, but I'll stand up for all of Alan Menken's music pre-"Hercules." I agree that "Hunchback" is his most daring and ambitious work ever, but that doesn't dilute everything that came before it.

Yes, "Mermaid" was his first score, and for a first-timer, it's remarkable what he did. If you think about it, it was the only instrumental work that relied very little on the song score. Most of the underscore he wrote for future films leaned hevaily on the songs, which worked splendidly, but reeked a little of laziness.

That said, Alan Menken deserved all eight of his Oscars. "Mermaid," "Beast" and "Aladdin" likely won for the same reason "Fame won: the song score. But even if you ignore the song score of each film, the underscore in each is stupendous:

"Storm" and the finale in "Mermaid"
"The Wolf Attack" and "Transformation" in "Beast"
"The Cave of Wonders" in "Aladdin"

It is indeed a shame that he suffered the year of "Hunchback." I am certain the score would have won if the voters really took the time to listen to it.

Some people here may know of the letter Alan Menken wrote to me shortly after his loss in 1997. It's framed with my John Williams autographs.

I can't wait to hear what Alan Menken and Stephen Schwartz cooked up for "Enchanted."

[Morlock]

I can't wait to hear wait Alan Menken and Stephen Schwartz cooked up for "Enchanted."

The movie looks pretty bad......I have a feeling that the songs won't work in the 'real' world, aside from comic effect.

[Ray Barnsbury]

It just occurred to me that there's a lot of great Menken and other Disney music woven into various shows, parades, and firework displays from the theme parks, that some fans may not be familiar with. I have a lot of WDW show music if anyone's interested, like Epcot's Tapestry of Nations and Illuminations: Reflections of Earth, Spectro-Magic (which I read somewhere that John Debney composed), Fantasy in the Sky, and Wishes. Also, the soundtrack to the new show Finding Nemo: The Musical is really great, a combination of Thomas Newman's eclectic style and Alan Menken's broadway sensibilities. Just drop me a PM if interested!

Ray Barnsbury

[Red Rabbit]

I remember hearing "The Ultimate War" at the entrance to Epcot.

[Ray Barnsbury]

They play a lot of film music throughout the parks; the queue for Soarin' at Epcot is a veritable treasure trove of movie themes.

Ray Barnsbury - who also has that hour-long loop

[The_Trout]

I'm with Ray - I've got oodles of Disney park music, and you might be surprised at how strong some of the scoring for the shows and attractions are. Of particular interest to film scores nerds is the stuff provided by film composers - John Debney did "Phantom Manor," as well as orchestrating and conducting all the classic Disney material for the 1983 Fantasyland redo; Joel McNeely wrote the score for "Great Moments With Mr. Lincoln," as well as the new "Tower of Terror" at DisneySea; most know by now that Jerry Goldsmith is response for "Soarin' Over California"'s fantastic score; Michael Giacchino wrote new scores for each iteration of "Space Mountain" across the globe; and somewhat infamously, Bruce Broughton is all over the parks these days, particularly Tomorrowland, though his scores remain sadly unreleased for the most part.

Not that this has anything to do with Menken, but since someone mentioned it...

[Desplat13]

I will place myself firmly on the side of the Menken supporters, and go much further by calling myself a fan. I don't have hunchback yet, but am hoping to get it soon. Both Mermaid and Aladdin are pretty good, but Beauty and th Beast is not only the best animated movie I know, it is perhaps the best movie I know. Can't really think of anything that can top it. And whoever said that the chef's song and Be Our Guest were pretty much the same, perhaps you should listen to them again. Some similarities maybe, but not much. Of course the songs in Beauty and the Beast are great, and they always get recognition. But the score is simply incredible, and each and every cue is great. Battle on the Tower is my personal favorite, especially the second half where Menken turns from the cartoony scoring to more of the dramatic type. And when the theme that is played in the beginning intro is reprised in the middle of it, between action, it is simply amazing. Then the theme he uses for Bells wanting adventure (the "new and a bit alarming, who'd have ever thought that this could be?" music) comes in as the Beast climbs towards here, and simply soars. Of course, the ending is great. Overall, that is perhaps my favorite track on iTunes.


Colin Thomson

[indy4]

I only have Pocahontas and Aladdin, but I love them both (especially the former). I never get tired of them.

I'm planning on eventually getting Beauty and the Beast, The Little Mermaid, and The Hunchback of Notre Dame, but they're more of my long term goals.

[Red Rabbit]

Hunchback and Beauty & the Beast are his best scores.

[Morlock]

Agreed.

[Desplat13]

I only have Pocahontas and Aladdin, but I love them both (especially the former). I never get tired of them.

I'm planning on eventually getting Beauty and the Beast, The Little Mermaid, and The Hunchback of Notre Dame, but they're more of my long term goals.

My how the tables have turned You really need Beauty and the Beast and The Little Mermaid. Some of the best music ever written for a movie. At least, Beauty and the Beast is.

Colin Thomson

[Blumenkohl]

Mulan wipes the floor with anything Menken wrote.

Goldsmith brought epic to Disney.

[Desplat13]

Is 'epic' the measure of great?

[Blumenkohl]

Epic + Great = DAMN Great!

[indy4]

I only have Pocahontas and Aladdin, but I love them both (especially the former). I never get tired of them.

I'm planning on eventually getting Beauty and the Beast, The Little Mermaid, and The Hunchback of Notre Dame, but they're more of my long term goals.

My how the tables have turned You really need Beauty and the Beast and The Little Mermaid. Some of the best music ever written for a movie. At least, Beauty and the Beast is.

Colin Thomson

Nice one. Yeah, I will definetly try to get those in the future. BATB is a bit higher on my priority list, because so many people love it.

Mulan wipes the floor with anything Menken wrote.

Mulan isn't even that great. There isn't one cue from Mulan that beats "Just Around the Riverbend," "Mine, Mine, Mine," "Colors of the Wind," "Savages," "Farewell," "Prince Ali," "Arabian Night," or "Friend Like Me."

[Desplat13]

Whoa, hold on there, Blumenkoh. National Treasure tries its hardest to be 'epic' sounding, and the biggest and best thing since sliced bread. But that is the main reason it fails: Everything is so epic that nothing is epic (that and it is so repetative). Beauty and the Beast is great BECUASE it is not epic and world changing. How many world-changing stories can you have before they get boring? I think restrained can beat epic any day of the week, if done well. I am sure Mulan is just wonderful, but Beauty and the Beast is just plain great, and succeeds without the help of the world resting on this one story.


Colin Thomson

[indy4]

Nicely said!

[Blumenkohl]

Suit yerself.

[Mark Olivarez]

Menken writes good songs but his underscores, minus the songs, are nowhere near the quality of Goldsmith's Mulan.


Take away Menken's songs from those Disney films and let him just compose a regular score and I'll bet he has no Oscars to his credit. The songs were responsible.

The academy fixed it somewhat by giving musical/comedy scores their own category but effed it up by giving Dudley the oscar for The Full Monty.