221 replies to this topic

[Henry Buck]

This is a thread for discussion of universally renowned composer Alan Menken. Menken wrote the scores to a slew of Disney box office smashes, starting with the revolutionary The Little Mermaid and ending with Home on the Range ... or something. He is currently working on Enchanted, a new Disney film that combines traditional animation with real footage, a technique sure to breed a winning film.

But, actually, I like Menken quite a lot. Despite the simplistic, kid-friendly feel of his music, he has captured the romantic spirit and the soaring optimism we are capable of at our best moments. Little Mermaid didn't deserve to take the Academy Award from Williams, but if it had been Beauty and the Beast that year ... Menken's best work was with amazing lyricist Howard Ashman. Tim Rice and those other guys weren't so great. Did they come up with something on the caliber of "Tale as old as time / Tune as old as song / Bittersweet and strange / Finding you can change / Learning you were wrong / Certain as the sun / Rising in the east / Tale as old as time / Song as old as rhyme / Beauty and the beast?" Yeah, right.

Speaking of The Little Mermaid, isn't "The Storm" an ethereal cue? It's along the lines of what I wish Pirates had been.

Here are some chronological orders (Aladdin supplied by Kendal_Ozzel)

The Little Mermaid

Fathoms Below
Main Title - The Little Mermaid *
Fanfare *
Daughters of Triton
Part of Your World
Fireworks *
Jig *
The Storm *
Part of Your World (Reprise) *
Under the Sea
Sebastian and Triton * (see The Music Behind the Magic)
Destruction of the Grotto *
Flotsam and Jetsam *
Poor Unfortunate Souls
Les Poissons
Tour of the Kingdom *
Kiss the Girl
Bedtime *
Wedding Announcement *
Eric to the Rescue *
Happy Ending (*)
Under the Sea (no opening dialogue - DVD rip)
Part of Your World (no opening dialogue - DVD rip)

Beauty and the Beast

Prologue * (see The Music Behind the Magic for instrumental version)
Belle
To the Fair *
Wolf Attack * (see The Music Behind the Magic)
Belle Reprise
Gaston
Gaston (Reprise)
Be Our Guest
West Wing *
Something There
Human Again (see Special Edition)
Beauty and the Beast
The Beast Lets Belle Go *
The Mob Song
Battle on the Tower *
Transformation (*)
Beauty and the Beast (pop version)
Transformation (Alternative) - used in end credits

Aladdin

Arabian Nights
Legend of the Lamp *
On a Dark Night *
One Jump Ahead
Street Urchins *
One Jump Ahead Reprise
Jasmine Runs Away *
The Marketplace *
The Cave of Wonders *
Friend Like Me
To Be Free
Prince Ali
A Whole New World
The Kiss *
Aladdin's Word *
Jafar's Hour *
Prince Ali (Reprise)
The Ends of the Earth *
The Battle *
Happy End in Agrabah (*)
A Whole New World (pop version)

* Denotes score-only track

A few words on Aladdin - cut "Jafar's Hour" off at around 38 seconds and sub in "Why Me?" (available, orchestra, John Freeman and all, on the The Music Behind the Magic box set) for an expansive, alternative version of "Prince Ali (Reprise)." The "Arabian Nights Reprise" track was recorded for the film's finale but ultimately discarded in favor of "Happy End in Agrabah." I haven't found a satisfactory way to edit this, replacing the choral ending of the track with "Arabian Nights Reprise," and I like "Happy End in Agrabah" better anyway. Nevertheless, "Arabian Nights Reprise" is a great listen. You can find it on the Music Behind the Magic box set or in better sound quality on the obscure Aladdin and the King of Thieves soundtrack (well, PM me if you're interested in an Apple Lossless or AAC or MP3 file). The end credits (a great instrumental version of "Friend Like Me") can be ripped from the DVD; however, they blend right into the awful, pop "A Whole New World," so there's no good way to separate them.

Anyway, I'm starting to sound like a Disney representative. Menken is cool, though. Let's discuss, eh? I know Kendal_Ozzel is a big fan, and... um... others?

[king mark]

He's the Gustavo Santaollala of the early 90 's

[Henry Buck]

Come on. The guy brought Broadway back to the big screen and wrote harmonies on a level of interest and listening satisfaction that composers like Steve Jablonsky can only dream of (I'd say he orchestrated, but I believe he didn't do more than rough, synthesized sketches of what he wanted for instrumentation).

[king mark]

Yes ,but watching John williams lose Oscars to that guy was just as excruciating then as it is now

[Henry Buck]

Oh, yeah. Well. I was two or three. I liked Aladdin quite a lot as a kid (sorry, it even comes before Williams).

[Ray Barnsbury]

I'm a BIG Disney fan, especially regarding the theme parks (mainly WDW) and the music, whether it be from the movies, parks, or otherwise. And I've always enjoyed Menken. I grew up with the soundtracks (on cassette) to The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, and Aladdin, knew all the words, etc. It wasn't until the last few years that I really paid attention to the purely instrumental portions of his scores. I find Beauty and the Beast to be the strongest of the early nineties "trilogy," although after getting Pocahontas last fall I really feel that it's Menken's best effort. So many rich themes woven throughout with such emotion, particularly the love theme ("If I Never Knew You"). Anyway, yeah I'm a Menken fan and am looking forward to hearing his music for Enchanted.

Ray Barnsbury - who still really needs The Hunchback of Notre Dame

[Dole]

In another wonderful example of how little the Oscars have to do with talent, Menken won in 1989 over more qualified scores (including Batman and Glory which weren't even nominated) and then lost in 1996 for his best effort The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Did Menken rob Goldsmith in 1992? Sure. Is Menken the Gustavo Santaclaus of the 1990's? No. C'mon! At least Menken has some talent!

[Stefancos]

Yes it is clear that Menken is a genius, we can see that in the vast number of films he scored that were not Disney cartoons.

Oh.....

[Henry Buck]

Of course. He's a one trick pony. But a spectacularly good one.

[Stefancos]

So was Adolf Hitler, but you don't see many threads about him here....

[AI]

Being a film score neophyte at the time, I was somewhat impressed with The Little Mermaid score, having watched the film. My standards were pretty low then, I thought Horner was the best composer ever. But I was absolutely gobsmacked that it actually won the Oscar that year, I watched the Awards on TV live. Same thing next year, and the next.

Menken can write a good tune, I'll give him that. He's a tunesmith. That's all that Disney films need. And an army of orchestrators and editors to give the final, pristine product.

[Elmo Lewis]

Yes it is clear that Menken is a genius, we can see that in the vast number of films he scored that were not Disney cartoons.

Oh.....

But you can hear traces of geniality in his non-film work: the vast oratorio King David, the very intelligent Weird Romance... It didn't necessarily take an animated crab to inspire the man, you know.

[Stefancos]

If Alan Menken is so great, why have I never listened to any of his works?

Can ya explan that to me?

Well can ya?

[Elmo Lewis]

Well, how frequently do you listen to musical theater CDs?

[Stefancos]

I don't, but I listen to film scores though.

[Elmo Lewis]

From a quantity point of view, Menken is a musical theater composer, not a film score one.

Not that he does bad in film.

[Stefancos]

But since I'm not a homosexual, I have no interest in musical theatre.

[BurgaFlippinMan]

Didnt they have a category specifically for animation scores last time?

Burga - who likes Menken

[Elmo Lewis]

But since I'm not a homosexual, I have no interest in musical theatre.

Is that Menken's fault?

Not that you have to be gay to appreciate Menken's finest works, though. You just have to accept that their are written for the stage. Which leads us to a vicious circle of one-answer-one-question.

[ChuckM]

Best score to an old Disney cartoon is Zimmer's score to Lion King.

[Mark Olivarez]

No Mulan is the best score to a Disney Cartoon.



Menken wrote great songs for the films. He deserved the Oscars for best songs but as far as the scores were concerned they weren't worthy of the awards.

[BurgaFlippinMan]

I think Hunchback is the best score to a Disney cartoon

[Red Rabbit]

You are correct. Hunchback is Menken's best work.


Rabbit--cannot grasp the Menken hate.

[Mark Olivarez]

I don't hate him just think the scores, not songs, weren't Oscar worthy.

[Stefancos]

Was it his idea to use Gospel music in Hercules?

[Red Rabbit]

That was.....a lasp in judgement.

[Mr. Breathmask]

Ray Barnsbury - who still really needs The Hunchback of Notre Dame

You do!

- Marc, who needs Beauty and the Beast, and possibly The Little Mermaid.

[Stefancos]

no you dont, you jed more goldsmith

[Kendal_Ozzel]

I'll agree that he didn't deserve the Oscar for The Little Mermaid's score. It was his first film score, and doesn't quite compare with something like Hunchback. It just isn't as... big. It's great, certainly, but not better than Last Crusade.

Another good DVD rip is Clay Aiken's "Proud of Your Boy" from Aladdin. A little "listhp"-heavy, but it's a great song.

[Romão]

He's the best songwriter in Hollywood, by far. His scores are pretty good, maybe not all Oscar worthy (Hunchback might be, I agree it is his best work). But those tunes...the guy is a genius.

[Henry Buck]

I'll agree that he didn't deserve the Oscar for The Little Mermaid's score. It was his first film score, and doesn't quite compare with something like Hunchback. It just isn't as... big. It's great, certainly, but not better than Last Crusade.

Another good DVD rip is Clay Aiken's "Proud of Your Boy" from Aladdin. A little "listhp"-heavy, but it's a great song.

Ah, yes, the orchestra sounds great, but Aiken doesn't. His straight, nonvibrato belting of extended notes is painful to listen to. Other times, he is soft and wispy. Brad Kane should have sung it. "Proud of Your Boy," though, is a really good song. Had the pacing of the film been different, it would have functioned very well in the place of "One Jump Ahead (Reprise)." (Yes, Aladdin references his parents, but he could, as Menken and Ashman considered, be speaking to them at their graves.)

[Luke Skywalker]

No Mulan is the best score to a Disney Cartoon.

[Morlock]

Except it has little to do with the songs. Not that I mind that, as the songs are quite terrible, but all of Menken's music works as a whole, score and songs together.

[Stefancos]

Which is fanastic, if you are interested in that sort of thing.

I'm not, so I'll happily take a superb Goldsmith score over some one-day-fly's movie tunes for cartoons.

[Pasi Tiitinen]

I don't mind if Menken got so many oscars , the whole award is kind of a joke.But the music he've created says nothing
to me , NOTHING.
He's one trick wonder.

[Morlock]

Which is fanastic, if you are interested in that sort of thing.

I'm not, so I'll happily take a superb Goldsmith score over some one-day-fly's movie tunes for cartoons.

Hunchback of Notre Dame has an excellent score, that fits in with the good songs. It's not as exciting as Jerry's score, but it's got it's highlights that are as good as the best tracks from Mulan.

[Stefancos]

Yes, if you are the kind of man who thinks fish fingers is as good as smoked salmon....

[Red Rabbit]

You'd like those fish fingers if they were cooked by Jerry Goldsmith.

[Delorean90]

Ooh, burn!

[Mark Olivarez]

You'd like those fish fingers if they were cooked by Jerry Goldsmith.

But he didn't cook fish fingers so there's no point debating it.