221 replies to this topic

[Blumenkohl]

Well said.

[Mark Olivarez]

I added more.

[John Crichton]

Epic + Great = DAMN Great!

Simple math even I can understand.

[Mark Olivarez]

Damn straight!!!

[Jacob]

Double dog damn straight!!!


Actually, since the only animated Disney scores I've heard outside the movie are Mulan and The Lion King (and some of Howard's work) I don't have a truly informed opinion on this.

[indy4]

Menken writes good songs but his underscores, minus the songs, are nowhere near the quality of Goldsmith's Mulan.


Take away Menken's songs from those Disney films and let him just compose a regular score and I'll bet he has no Oscars to his credit. The songs were responsible.

Well, that's like saying: Raiders of the Lost Ark is a good score, but get rid of the adventurous music, and it is nowhere near the quality of The Mummy. The songs of Menken scores, like the adventurous music of Indy scores, are the main reason why the scores are so damn good. Take away a highlight, and duh it won't be as good as before.

Oh, and any of you who think Menken can't write good purley instrumental cues should listen to "Farewell" from Pocahontas.

[Jacob]

Mark didn't say he couldn't write good underscore. Just that Mulan's underscore is much better.

[Mark Olivarez]

I had two kids who grew up during Menken's Oscar period.

Trust me when I say I've heard more than one person could possibly take of his Disney scores.

[indy4]

Still, you're comparing the best aspect of the Mulan score to the worst (though still excellent) of Menken scores.

But in terms of underscore, The Lion King defeats all Disney movies.

[Mark Olivarez]

Oh no it doesn't. Zimmer was riding the coat tails of Menken's success and he benefitted from Elton John and Tim Rice.

Well, that's like saying: Raiders of the Lost Ark is a good score, but get rid of the adventurous music, and it is nowhere near the quality of The Mummy. The songs of Menken scores, like the adventurous music of Indy scores, are the main reason why the scores are so damn good. Take away a highlight, and duh it won't be as good as before.

Now that really makes sense.

[Ray Barnsbury]

I think that while Menken's songs for the "original trilogy" of revived Disney animated musicals (Mermaid, Beauty, Aladdin) are his best, his underscore writing peaked with Pocahontas and Hunchback. Enchanted actually features some of his least engaging score, though the songs are good enough.

[Desplat13]

All right, as I type this I am downloading Mulan from iTunes, 'cause I am a fair guy when it comes to arguing. But if ANYTHING in it beats Battle on the Tower from BATB, well, let's just say I will have to start rethinking my musical priorities.


Colin Thomson

[Desplat13]

Menken writes good songs but his underscores, minus the songs, are nowhere near the quality of Goldsmith's Mulan.


Take away Menken's songs from those Disney films and let him just compose a regular score and I'll bet he has no Oscars to his credit. The songs were responsible.

Well, that's like saying: Raiders of the Lost Ark is a good score, but get rid of the adventurous music, and it is nowhere near the quality of The Mummy.

Very good point, even though I think Menken has written some of the greatest film scores around.

OK, first impressions of Mulan:

Most certainly lacking when it comes to the songs. I am afraid that there is no real comparison between Menken and Goldsmith here, and I have to assume most would agree. A couple nice moments, perhaps, but nothing on the scale of Beauty and the Beast. But usually the Mulan defenders point to the score, and say Goldsmith can write instrumentals better than Menken. Fair enough, we'll discuss it on your terms.

So, why is Mulan's score considered better by some? More 'epic' has been the argument I have heard, and I already said why I don't think that means 'better'. Still, the writing in Mulan is top notch. Some nice themes, very nice oriental textures, and good percussion work. All of these things are well done. I watched the movie once quite a few years ago, and don't hardly remember any of it.

But the score in and of itself does not say 'animated', or, if you like, 'child-like'. Many may say that this is a good thing, and that they have heard enough child-like music, and want something with substance. The fact is that, while child-like has far too often sunk to the 'child-ish' (two distinctly different terms), it doesn't have to, and when done well, the wonder and innocence can lend itself in a powerfully child-like way to the emotional effect (need I cite once more Battle on the Tower?). This is why I think Menken's music works better for its films than Goldsmith's (in the animated genre). Mulan could be a very serious sort of movie in the music's serious moments, and the only moments that really sound child-like come dangerously close to child-ish. So we have two very different types of scoring, and Menken's is the more confluent of the two. Menken uses all of the tools at his disposal to write music that makes you feel like a child experiencing a fantasy. One in which there is fun, danger, and powerful emotion. Goldsmith writes music that starts as fantasy, but, when it becomes dangerous, loses all fantasy elements and becomes your average well written scary dangerous music. Which is good, but Menken's is much better for the subject matter.

That is my defense. And, in case you hadn't noticed, I love arguing. So, bring it on.

Colin Thomson

[Ray Barnsbury]

Goldsmith didn't write the songs for Mulan, though he incorporated two of them in his suite. Nice post, otherwise.

[Desplat13]

Really? Oh, I see, Matthew Wilder. OK, well, if we are comparing Mulan and Beauty and the Beast, the song argument still stands. If we are comparing Menken and Goldsmith, we have no songs to compare. Which would make which of the two more versatile? Working with a lyricist is not something anybody can do. Not saying Goldsmith can't. It just seems he didn't for this genre.

But thanks for pointing that out.


Colin Thomson

[Mark Olivarez]

Goldsmith had nothing to do with the songs, in fact if I'm not mistaken he was brought in late to score the film film because Rachel Portman was originally assigned but had to bow out because she was pregnant.

Yes the songs to Mulan aren't as good but I'm talking score. And if you downloaded it from itunes I imagine you have the commercial version that contains maybe 25 mins of score and not the Academy promo that has about 60 to 70 mins of Goldsmith's score.

However, one could listen to Secret Of Nimh to get an idea of how Goldsmith might score a Disney film if he were able to compose the songs as well.

In my book he would do an excellent job.

[Desplat13]

Goldsmith had nothing to do with the songs, in fact if I'm not mistaken he was brought in late to score the film film because Rachel Portman was originally assigned but had to bow out because she was pregnant.

Yes the songs to Mulan aren't as good but I'm talking score. And if you downloaded it from itunes I imagine you have the commercial version that contains maybe 25 mins of score and not the Academy promo that has about 60 to 70 mins of Goldsmith's score.

However, one could listen to Secret Of Nimh to get an idea of how Goldsmith might score a Disney film if he were able to compose the songs as well.

In my book he would do an excellent job.

I know you are talking score. So am I. Yes, I got the original release. The promo seems pretty hard to get a hold of. Is the extra 35 minutes of score a lot better than what was released on the original? I know often OSTs do not do full justice to a score. Would the extra music refute my points? I can understand how a bigger picture of the music leads to a much more powerful whole, and makes more sense than bits and pieces spliced together. But most of what I said had to do with style, which, I assume, still holds true. Correct me if I am wrong.



Colin Thomson

[Mark Olivarez]

Yes it would present a much better picture of the score to hear the full version. If you are expecting Mulan to sound like an animated film score or "child like" then I can see why you would prefer Menken's work.

Mulan sounds like a very good music and whatever genre it was composed for shouldn't matter. And as I mentioned earlier give Secret Of Nimh a listen if you want a more "child like" approach to the music. But it too contains aggressive writing that might suggest otherwise.

[Red Rabbit]

Mulan is a really great score, and is probably the most "grown up" one for Disney. It surprised me how much score there is in the film in relation to the songs, in that there is a lot more orchestral music. I can understand how it can be compared to Menken's absolute best, but saying The Lion King is better is pure horseradish (and I like that score).

[Desplat13]

Yes it would present a much better picture of the score to hear the full version. If you are expecting Mulan to sound like an animated film score or "child like" then I can see why you would prefer Menken's work.

Mulan sounds like a very good music and whatever genre it was composed for shouldn't matter. And as I mentioned earlier give Secret Of Nimh a listen if you want a more "child like" approach to the music. But it too contains aggressive writing that might suggest otherwise.

Probably my two favorite scores in the world are: Beauty and the Beast, and The Empire Strikes Back. But neither would work at all for the other. To say 'whatever genre it is composed for shouldn't matter' is to give up on anything but generic music (good or bad, still generic). It is a fact that we associate different things with different types of music. So if you mean that the Mulan music would work better stuck into any random film, you are probably right. That is called generic, and that is one of the worst enemies of good music. I can understand if you would like a more adult-like approach to a children's movie. Well, no, I can't.

I am sure Goldsmith wrote great music for many types of films. Menken, however, is the master of the animated musical.


Colin Thomson, who never thought Lion King was all that amazing

[Mark Olivarez]

That's not quite what I meant, but I'll make it simple.

Menken can write good/great songs but Goldsmith is far superior composer.

[Stefancos]

Menken is just a tunesmith.

[Desplat13]

I want reasons. I have given you plenty of reasons why Menken's scoring is superior. I am not talking about the songs at all. Obviously, we cannot compare them. I am talking about the scoring. Tell me WHY Goldsmith is better (or why Menken's scoring is junk). I found Mulan to be much less original than Beauty and the Beast. I know you all think it is a recycled sound, but it is Menken's sound, no matter how many people copy it, and it is a brilliant sound (when coming from its master). Mulan did in no way originate any of its style. Beauty and the Beast really started something. I know The Little Mermaid came first, but that was a little more experimental, and Beauty and the Beast was the result of that experimenting. And I am talking about the scoring.


Colin Thomson

[jh12]

I think Alan Menken's work for Disney has been absolutely fantastic and deserving of his Oscar wins.  Plus, even he wishes he could score films like Goldsmith and Williams:

- A user who'd listen to Hunchback's "Out There" when stuck in the library for months.  

[Mark Olivarez]

I have no idea how you could come up with idea that I'm calling Goldsmith's music generic. If you want generic Disney music listen to Hans Zimmer's Lion King because it has music that was typical of MV.


You totally missed the point.

As I said take away the songs from those Disney films and you have very little substance left as far as underscore goes. Goldsmith wrote a powerful score that does not really on songs to carry it. An animated movie does not have to have "child Like" music nor does it need an film score that sounds like it was composed just for a cartoon. My point was composing good film music to fit what is onscreen and it shouldn't matter whether you are scoring a comedy, a cartoon, a drama or a Sci-Fi film.

At the end of The Little Mermaid the music for the ship ramming Ursula is weak and anti-climatic. I felt no energy coming from the music, it was just there serving no purpose. The same can be said for the scene at the end of Beauty And The Beast, a very dramatic scene that has weak music.

Now take the scene in Mulan were the Huns are charging down the hill, Goldsmith's music is perfect for that scene. The scene of hundreds of Huns charging backed by Goldsmith powerful score gives the scene energy that was lacking from Menken's score.

There are many animated films that don't rely on cartoonish scores or songs and succeed very well. Secret of Nimh, Land Before Time, The Incredibles, Treasure Planet, Heavy Metal and Ratatouille come to mind.

[Stefancos]

All of them superiour to the limp, syrupy and obvious music composed my Mr. Menken.

He always sounded to me like he would be big on Broadway, but he just doesn't cut it for the movies.

Outside Disney, Menken's resume for film music is pretty darn poor.

[Desplat13]

I have no idea how you could come up with idea that I'm calling Goldsmith's music generic. If you want generic Disney music listen to Hans Zimmer's Lion King because it has music that was typical of MV.


You totally missed the point.

As I said take away the songs from those Disney films and you have very little substance left as far as underscore goes. Goldsmith wrote a powerful score that does not really on songs to carry it. An animated movie does not have to have "child Like" music nor does it need an film score that sounds like it was composed just for a cartoon. My point was composing good film music to fit what is onscreen and it shouldn't matter whether you are scoring a comedy, a cartoon, a drama or a Sci-Fi film.

At the end of The Little Mermaid the music for the ship ramming Ursula is weak and anti-climatic. I felt no energy coming from the music, it was just there serving no purpose. The same can be said for the scene at the end of Beauty And The Beast, a very dramatic scene that has weak music.

Now take the scene in Mulan were the Huns are charging down the hill, Goldsmith's music is perfect for that scene. The scene of hundreds of Huns charging backed by Goldsmith powerful score gives the scene energy that was lacking from Menken's score.

There are many animated films that don't rely on cartoonish scores or songs and succeed very well. Secret of Nimh, Land Before Time, The Incredibles, Treasure Planet, Heavy Metal and Ratatouille come to mind.

I consider Ratatuille to be cartoon-ish. But never mind.

I know you would never say the Mulan's music was generic, but what you did say was "Mulan sounds like a very good music and whatever genre it was composed for shouldn't matter". I know you didn't mean generic, because that is a soap word. It just sounded that way to me. But I think both of you are dismissing for too quickly the power in 'children's' (for lack of a better term) music. I understand totally what you are saying about The Little Mermaid. But I have not been defending that one, as I think it is one of Menken's weaker efforts and far below Beauty and the Beast.

I just don't quite understand how the phrase "My point was composing good film music to fit what is onscreen and it shouldn't matter whether you are scoring a comedy, a cartoon, a drama or a Sci-Fi film" could be considered anything but generic. Does this mean that there is no need for style? All the types of film you are refering to require dramatically different styles of music, and one would not usually fit the other. OK, maybe I see where you are coming from, in that animated music doesn't need to sound animated to work. I just love the fantasy sound. But what I want you to understand is that the Menken style is just as valid as the Goldsmith style. They are different, and both well done. Mulan, however, sounds to my ears as a normal smattering of oriental, child-ish, and intense music. It is an entertaining listen, for sure. But it lacks the spark that one can find in Beauty and the Beast. In Menken's scoring we find really what I consider to be the origination of the Disney 'magic', if you will. Perhaps the only incarnation of that magic that ever came out of the Disney studios.

Certianly you will enjoy Mulan's music more than Beauty and the Beast's if you don't appreciate good fantasy music. I would say Mulan is an absolutely fine example of a type of writing which was there long before Mulan. But Beauty and the Beast began a whole new phase in the fantasy genre, and Menken is still being copied for what he wrote then. And yes, I am talking about the score. The fact is, it makes people believe in a utopian-type fantasy world, and it works undeniably well. But you would of course say that you have no interest in utopian music, as it lacks conflict, thus lacking any depth, in which case you would be very correct. This is why Menken's danger music is so effective. It puts in danger the perfectness of what he has created, thus causing the listener to feel the anxiety of the characters in the movie. Sure, I can listen to the Huns attacking music, and say 'good job, Goldsmith'. But I can listen to 'Battle on the Tower' and feel the emotion of the characters.

Which brings me to another point. "The same can be said for the scene at the end of Beauty And The Beast, a very dramatic scene that has weak music.". The music is the ONLY reason that this scene is dramatic. Otherwise it would be your normal everyday fight with the bad guy, think you beat the bad guy, happy to have won, stabbed in the back, all hope is lost, bad guy falls hundreds of feet to his death scene. The music first brings excitement to the fighting in some fine intense and emotional scoring, but then comes back to the beginning theme which represents the spell on the Beast and that time is running short to break it. This is played as the Beast begins to climb to Belle, thinking Gaston is gone. From there the music changes to what is used as a sort of a love theme for the Beast and Belle, and builds to an amazing climax of wonderfulness just in time to be hurled back into the dissonence and harshness of Menken's brass scoring as Gaston stabs the Beast in the back. The percussion comes back in for a few measures, driving home the point just before Gaston is hurled from the Beast's back to the depths below, with the appropriate music to go with his fall. How in the world could you listen to this masterpiece and call it 'weak' music?

In the interest of fairness, I have been giving Mulan a good listen. I think you should consider spending 3:05 minutes of your time listening to the end of Battle on the Tower, from 2:23 to the end. Listen to it with the realization that this is unashamadly fantasy writing, and must be judged as such.

Enjoy!


Colin Thomson

I think Alan Menken's work for Disney has been absolutely fantastic and deserving of his Oscar wins. Plus, even he wishes he could score films like Goldsmith and Williams:

- A user who'd listen to Hunchback's "Out There" when stuck in the library for months.

Nice clip. I would love for Menken to have a chance to do some scoring outside of the little niche to which he has been confined. Sounds like he would too. We can always hope.


Colin Thomson

[Mark Olivarez]

I've heard enough of Menken's music to form my own opinion, and that's that his underscore lacks the emotion and power without the songs.

I'll also repeat that I have two kids who grew up during Menken's height of scoring Disney tunes so I am very, and I mean very, familiar with his music. We had all the CDs and as a film score fan I gave them all a listen and walked away with my current opinion.

Menken writes wonderful songs but without them his scores wouldn't be anywhere near the same quality.



I seriously doubt if he was given a film like Star Wars or Planet of the Apes he would be able to come close to capturing the same quality music that was composed for them.

I'm not telling you not to like him, I'm just telling you why I don't.

[Desplat13]

OK, that's cool.

I just can't help but go to extreme measures when defending Menken.

You go right ahead and keep on enjoying Mulan. Very nice score, that.


Colin Thomson

[Bryant Burnette]

OK, that's cool.

I just can't help but go to extreme measures when defending Menken.

You go right ahead and keep on enjoying Mulan. Very nice score, that.


Colin Thomson

I'm with you totally on Menken being the s--t, but I've got to ask after scanning the posts on this page:

Have you seen Mulan, or just dowloaded and listened to the music?

[BurgaFlippinMan]

I've heard enough of Menken's music to form my own opinion, and that's that his underscore lacks the emotion and power without the songs.

I'll also repeat that I have two kids who grew up during Menken's height of scoring Disney tunes so I am very, and I mean very, familiar with his music. We had all the CDs and as a film score fan I gave them all a listen and walked away with my current opinion.

Menken writes wonderful songs but without them his scores wouldn't be anywhere near the same quality.

I kind of agree, unless we are talking about Pocahontas and Hunchback.

[Desplat13]

It saw Mulan once a few years ago, but I don't really remember any of it.

[Mark Olivarez]

I kind of agree, unless we are talking about Pocahontas and Hunchback.

Those films signaled the downward spiral of Disney animation films. After the Lion King Disney could never re-capture that magic.

[Bryant Burnette]

With a few caveats, I think both Pocahontas and The Hunchback of Notre Dame are terrific movies, but you're absolutely right that they were responsible for Disney's downward spiral. People did not then, and do not now, want self-important history lessons from Walt Disney animation. Give Disney credit for trying to not stagnate, but they probably ought to have found more accessible topics. The crap-fest that was Hercules didn't help matters any (although it sort of anticipated the irreverance that made Shrek so popular), so by the time Mulan rolled around, people couldn't care less about going to see Disney animation. Which is a shame, because Mulan was one of their best of the decade.

[Red Rabbit]

If only they were still making traditionally animated films. Leave the CG to Pixar.

[Kendal_Ozzel]

They're going back to it now.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780521/

No Menken this time, though.

[Desplat13]

I think that is smart. I don't know if that movie will be worth anything, but I do agree that they should leave CG to Pixar.


Colin Thomson

[Red Rabbit]

Yes, I heard about that. It's a step in the right direction I think, but I don't think it will reach what Mulan or Lion King were.

[Romão]

The quality of his song writing is undeniable. BUt I find his underscore efforts in Pocahontas and specially Hunchback to be particularly fantastic.

[Mark Olivarez]

With a few caveats, I think both Pocahontas and The Hunchback of Notre Dame are terrific movies, but you're absolutely right that they were responsible for Disney's downward spiral. People did not then, and do not now, want self-important history lessons from Walt Disney animation. Give Disney credit for trying to not stagnate, but they probably ought to have found more accessible topics. The crap-fest that was Hercules didn't help matters any (although it sort of anticipated the irreverance that made Shrek so popular), so by the time Mulan rolled around, people couldn't care less about going to see Disney animation. Which is a shame, because Mulan was one of their best of the decade.

As bad as Hercules was I will admit James Woods as Hades was hilarious.